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Book review: 'Faith of the Fatherless - The Psychology of Atheism' : Comments
By Ben-Peter Terpstra, published 11/5/2005Ben-Peter Terpstra reviews the book 'Faith of the Fatherless - The Psychology of Atheism'
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Posted by Grey, Thursday, 12 May 2005 2:56:09 PM
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Greg_m "The onus of proof lies on those who want to believe in something"
Sure. Prove that our minds are capable of determining truth and that the natural world exists. Prove that empiricism and human reason is the only source of knowledge. Deuc "A psychological explanation for belief in gods is a valid argument against theism because it provides a reason for religious belief that is not supernatural" Wrong. It is not an argument against Theism. It is merely an explanation created to fit atheistic assumptions. To use it as an argument against theism is begging the question. The truth of a belief is not measured by why people believe it, but in the belief itself. Posted by Grey, Thursday, 12 May 2005 2:56:25 PM
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Grey
"Xena "BenPeter Terpstra be more concerned about the good you can do in this current life and leave others to follow their own consciences." Yep. He should quit trying to follow his conscience and instead follow yours. Do you people even understand how hypocritical you are being?" Now you are being absurd. I didn't ask anyone to follow MY conscience, as if anyone could. Simply that Terpstra apparently has nothing better to do than desperately attempt to discredit non christians. And to judge from your massive 'dis' on so many other posters 'twould appear you have a lot of time to spare also. Posted by Xena, Thursday, 12 May 2005 4:11:11 PM
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Dear Grey,
May I respond point by point? a. I expect people to respect my moral code and, as long as it doesn't actively hurt them (or their's hurt me), to treat me as an adult and let me make my own, personal moral decisions. Truly, that is all. You can argue with me vigorously if you want, but you won't have a snowflake's chance in hell of persuading me if you do not respect me. b. Religion has always benefited the powerful by re-inforcing their right to hold on to the power. When men argue it's "God's will" women take a lesser role, it seems like an awfully convenient God to me. c. No-one has ever fought a war to spread athiesm; communism maybe, which rejected religion, nazism, which was run by athiests but used and co-opted religion, yes. Nobody has ever said I'm fighting the Godfull hordes to convert them to athiesm. Yet how many times have we heard the opposite ; we're fighting the Godless hordes to convert them to Christianity, Islam, take your pick? Armies still claim, as they march into battle, that they have a God on their side. d. I don't believe their faith is wrong. I don't share their belief but, I am not God (if you'll pardon the expression) and just because I don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong. Faith I have respect for, it is religion I have a problem with. There is a difference. e. Don't change your beliefs on my account. Believe whatever you want, you can even evangelise, if you must, as long as you give me equal right to reject (politely) what you have to say, as far as it fitting into my own life is concerned. Posted by enaj, Thursday, 12 May 2005 5:49:46 PM
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Grey: "Prove that our minds are capable of determining truth and that the natural world exists. Prove that empiricism and human reason is the only source of knowledge".
The fact that our minds are capable of determining truth is best demonstrated by the discipline of mathematics, where absolute logical truth exists. 1 + 1 = 2. Truth. Basic philosophical theories of truth range from correspondence, coherence, and pragmatic (see http://www.iep.utm.edu/t/truth.htm). The pragmatic approach most closely resembles the scientific method, and is the best way to get around the absurd radical skepticism/postmodernism you are putting forward (this is the kind that Descartes attempted to defeat by saying "I think, therefore I am"). The pragmatic approach and the scientific method see truth as an evolving process, where accepted truths are always able to be challenged by new evidence and/or argument. Also within the pragmatic theory, the utility of beliefs are taken into account. For instance, to not believe that the natural world exists would be completely useless. Why bother sitting there typing garbage on an internet chat room if you’re not even sure if the natural world exists? Posted by greg_m, Thursday, 12 May 2005 8:50:19 PM
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Xena ! true to form :) "now your being absurd"
man.. the arrogance in that is mind boggling....... see ? can you hear yourself ? roll with the punches deary, and respond with some kind of engagement rather than 'your absurd'. grr Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 12 May 2005 8:52:50 PM
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Some important insights on others comments.
Enaj " with my own ideas about truth and morality, but I do not expect others to believe what I believe."
You expect others not to go against your morality every day. Or are you saying you don't condone restraining anyones personal freedom todo whatever they want (Including forcing their morality on you)?
Enaj "Religion has always benefited the powerful"
By what standards do you define 'benefited'?
Enaj "More human beings have died in the name of Gods throughout history than in the name of anything else"
Prove it. This is a poor assertion. If you want to look at recent history, Godless Atheism resulted in 100 million deaths in the 20th century. I am not denying people clash over religion, but reductionistic attitudes to the causes of war are useless.
Enaj "But please be clear, I do not mock or condemn personal faith. I respect it"
Sure you do. You just believe that their faith is irrational and wrong...such respect. And then you finish with.
Enaj "I'll respect your beliefs and not try to persuade you to believe otherwise, when you respect mine."
Essentially you are saying that when I have changed my belief to agree with yours (on evangelising) you will respect my belief and not try to change my belief to agree with yours. Your pretend tolerance is fairly obvious.
Xena "BenPeter Terpstra be more concerned about the good you can do in this current life and leave others to follow their own consciences."
Yep. He should quit trying to follow his conscience and instead follow yours. Do you people even understand how hypocritical you are being?