Mollydukes,John Howard's appeal went far beyond any religious minority groups.For the first time in many years the responsible ,hard working majority said that they had had enough of the soft option antics of the left.The left had monopolised the lectern for far too long.Welcome to the era of common sense,hopefully discipline,morality,facing realities of survival,common decency ,manners and respect for others.There is a whole orchresta of qualities that make our society function,and not just monotones of individual rights,handouts,capitalist exploitation that some lawyers premote to line their pockets.

As is the way, I agree with you TUS... those who indulge in (in fact descend to) comparisons with Hitler are engaging in pure hyperbole and damage their own credibility by floating such notions as part of serious debate.

For numbat’s benefit – Hitler made abortion illegal for any female Aryan – on penalty of death.

By your standard, I would be justified in making serious comparisons of Pro-Life advocates with Hitler (I however chose not to).

Now, maybe numbat can give us an example of any national leader who does not take matters of national boarders and sovereign security with a sense of gravitas.

Ultimately the issue of religion matters only in so much as the politicians we elect to lead this nation are likely to have had some exposure a to religion of some sort. That it “colours their thinking” – just as any other experience from their formative years - is a certainty – but any responsible politician also understands he is a representative of his party manifesto and electorate first and any allegiance to his church comes along way after that.

Garra, I support in principle the idea of legislating against real hatred and vilification, but sadly, if you knew the WAY that this (flawed) legislation has been deliberately manipulated and used as a tool of supression, with political backing, you would probably re-think your naive support for it.

1/ A lot of the lobbying for this came from the Jewish lobby, who is trying to silence (among others) the Citizens Electoral Council which is very active and often perceived as being 'anti semitic'.
2/ The Muslims were not far behind, because they want to infiltrate our legal system with as much 'Islam friendly' law as they can manage.
(Changes to financial insitutions law, and burial laws are examples.) The burial law exemption is in contravention to the anti discrimination act by the way.

The case of the 2 Christian pastors, came about as a DIRECT RESULT of a person employed by the EOC (May Helou) AND the Islamic Council of Victoria and the SPECIFIC targeting of a seminar by these pastors, and the sending of spies to it who had pre-decided their opinions.

The transcript of the court case is available with reference in the thread on that matter. The not only were the findings flawed, they were based on ACTUAL misrepresentation of the transcript by the Judge, hence an appeal will go ahead. ( I understand)

I have a case with the EOC over a matter of the vilification of Christianity, and the manner it has been viewed further supports this contention.

Having now seen how the 'left' trys to supress and stifle and repress, I welcome little Johny and gang :)

Yes, Col, it certainly does not help by bring comparisons with Nazism into this debate. Neither Christian fundamentalists here nor in America are fascists. Authoritarian maybe but nothing like Jorge Haider in Austria or Jean Marie Le Pen in France. Let alone Hitler or Mussolini.

Maddox's book, from what I can tell, paints a dark picture of rising Christian fundamentalism in Australia modelled on the American line. And while it is of serious concern that many of them maintain a vicious hatred of gays, lesbians or anyone else not fitting into their narrow plans for the world (see www.godhatesfags.com), it is also true that during Howard's period in office and in the period when NSW and other states were governed by the Coalition, the gay and lesbian movement made the biggest gains since its inception around the early 1970s. And in America, the Reagan Administration saw the rise of the Christian right AND huge gains for the gay and lesbian movement.

Why is this? Homosexuality is often more of a "hot button" issue than abortion. Why has the Christian right failed to stem the tide?
Firstly, they have had some wins. The marriage issue comes to mind (but the 2004 legislation didn't actually change anything fundamental - same-sex marriage has always been legally invalid). Secondly, popular support for our Federal system and voting patterns indicate people want a balance. The more gay-friendly ALP dominates state governments coast to coast. And thirdly, voters are wary of extremists. This explains the Citizens Electoral Council and Christian Democrats poor showing election after election.

Col and others you never mentioned the first two quotes. As regards the hitler one I just asked if you could see if it pertained to howard - apparently you did! I could mention goebels, the nazi propaganda boss. The quote as I recall it - "repeat lies over and over again and the people (dumb ones anyhow -addition mine)will believe them" How were you affected by howard's and sneering costello's election lie/s? This one (one of many actually) concerned interest rates and saying that the bank board agreed with them, the libs? The bank board didn't of course. Did they, howard/costello, after endlessly repeating this miserable lie fool you?

You fly to the defence of "honest?" john, the 'good' germans flew to the defence of their "honest?" leader also. They were totally hoodwinked as well. Col and others you are up against a master manipulator in howard. Of course when asked if he knew about this lie- like Manuel in fawlty towers - howard answered, as usual, "I know nossing!" I can see you nodding your heads in agreement with your honest, decent, dependable leader. regards, numbat

John Howard does not exhibit the values of a true Christian in speech, and political decision making. A political leader that lies so much is certainly not practicing the values and vision of Christ. His support of the 'religious right', as you say, as well as his decision making, is cunning and hypocritical. The worst part of all, is the support given by the majority of [protestant] christians in this country to Howard, of which I am one...however I'm not blind and do not support Howard.

Teresa van Lieshout
Author - Faith and Politics: A Framework for Australian Social and Political Life