As a case study of the kinds of ideas washing around Australia now, this has been a fascinating if sometimes distressing correspondence (nearly 90 items now – a record?), sparked off by John Stone’s essay.

I share with OLO readers an email response I got recently to something I wrote on Crikey about David Hicks’ right to a fair trial in a civilian court, as an example of the demons we risk letting out of Pandora’s box when we “intellectuals” stoke up the fires of racial-sectarian hatred in our anxious society:

“another dogooder like burnstine,margo,abc,sbs you pests are just dieng to distroy the Australian way of life all you people are ashamed on who you are your dieing for these dark age muslims to suck the Australian taxpayers dry and out breed the country with the 4 wifes and 10 kids to each one of them why don't you open the pages of that filthy quran and find out what the islamic agenda is for infedels like you oh and muslims despise homos like you burnside and all your other fags they behead scum like you people after your use by date in finshed your refugees will be the first to teach you insecure socialists a good leason about their dark age cult hey buddy don't lose your head will bring your end not the Australian society that you fear oh i bet you don't have any kids to worry about their future”.

Of course this person has every right to express his/her views. As did George Negus’ interviewee Wassim Doureihi– thanks, Minuet. I thought Wassim reassuringly clear and moderate. But I don’t agree that there are sharply demarcated Western and Islamic worlds – we have to share one world in peace, significant minorities live on both sides of the (by now very blurred) sectarian divide, and important religious and cultural divisions exist within each ‘”world”. But I respect how Wassim’s group feels about Western governments’ political/military interference in Muslim countries. I don’t see that non-Muslim Australians have anything to fear from Wassim’s ideas, while his group respects Australia’s laws.

Rossco is right: "Judge people as individuals for what they say and do, but don't condemn a whole class of people for the actions of a few. We know that many Catholic priests have sexually abused children but I don't hear condemnation of all priests, let alone all Catholics as a consequence. Why condemn all Muslims for the behavior of a very small minority. ”

Except I would add that you must judge people where they are in control, not where they are a minority. That is exactly why Islam must be condemned. Wherever Muslims dominate, they discriminate and oppress other religions, not to mention women, gays, Jews, etc... Some Muslim countries discriminate more, some less, but in none do all people and religions have the same rights and freedoms.

Oh yes, there is also the small matter that Muslims cannot and will not condemn torture and murder, at least when it is their prophet Mohammud that did it (by their own accounts, many times!).

Would anybody here care to tell me why I should respect a group of people that cannot condemn a man who was a slaver and who also brutally tortured people? Not only will they not condemn him, but they consider him to be a model of virtue and goodness - a shinning example to follow. This is not a “very small minority” but the vast majority – almost all, in fact – of Muslims. At least the Catholic Church says its sorry and is paying dearly, not that it doesn’t richly deserve condemnation and scorn.

So this is why I condemn Muslims. This is why I speak out. I don’t know about the rest of people here, but slavery, murder, torture and sex with children is totally unacceptable. Anybody who does these things is scum. Anybody who justifies these types of actions is also scum, and anybody who is informed about these acts but refuses to acknowledge and denounce them cannot be trusted and therefore must also be condemned.

Would anybody care to tell me why this is not a reasonable attitude?

John Aka Kactu

Well John, I understand what you're saying and it is true that in many muslim countries, human rights (especially women's rights) are lacking.
Yes, some of the things you mention happen quite a bit in places such as Pakistan or, still, Afghanistan (the government can't really control the warlords). But remember, the Christian Bible (Old Testament) also approves of slavery and the stoning of people who committed adultary. It also has nothing against marriages with people as young as 14. In fact, it has recently been shown that in many Amish communities, child abuse and underage sex are rampant even among family members. However, Christianity has been modified, moderated and modenized, something which is possible in a secular society, but not possible in a religious society. The trouble is not with Islam, but with the governments of these countries, and the lack of will to change. However, in a society such as ours, which is secular, I do believe that the Majority of Muslim people can make a very good and proper contribution to our society. You might call it wishful thinking, but remember, many "holy" christian people used to say that anyone who wasn't blue eyed, blond haired, and white skinned was evil, and in America, church leaders used to say that the bible forbid interracial marriages and condoned lynchings of black people. And this was about 40 years ago! It's not that Islam is bad, the problem is people. People everyone, in any country, can be evil, and they usually are.

Oh, and a follow up. In the good ole, USA most people (white, god fearing christians) still approved of racist policies and the lynchings of black people. They were a majority. The only reason why the civil rights bill was passed was because the President of America took a stand on it.

I understand that you think Muslim countries are backwards John, and in many, many ways they are.

But we weren't that different not too long ago. Human beings are the same people we were over 1000 to 2000 years ago. We haven't change, our societies have evolved. Sadly, that hasn't happened in many muslim countries, and I'll admit that many remain dreadfully backward and there is absolutely no excuse for it.

But give them a chance. Not to long ago, Japan was a bit insane as well, but now they are one of the worlds most developed, humane societies. Everyone needs a chance you know.

Its a free country! You do have the right to think what ever you want. There is nothing wrong with judging as you see fit.

UNCONQUERED SUN

can we look together at your last post where you mentioned the Old Testament, young marriage (14).. slavery and stoning. Then, you made a ‘great leap forward’ bypassing the New Testament altogether.

The issues you raise in your first sentence are not ‘Christianity’ its the patriarchal Israelite culture, which occurred in the midst of a ‘rule or be ruled/kill or be killed’ social environment with the surrounding tribes/races.
In such circumstances, without being subject to some larger ‘Empire’ the types of guidelines described in the OT are entirely reasonable, and were as much about social welfare as anything.
Treatment of captives females, while quite far from how ‘we’, with the benefit of 2000 yrs of New Testament background+Reformation+Renaissance+Enlightenment etc, would feel comfortable, in that day I think the alternatives were quite limited.

On the issue of ‘child marraige’ and slavery, it might be worthwhile looking at this in depth.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html

However, I have a problem with a 50yr old man marrying a 9 yr old girl as Mohamed did, looking at the context it seems to me a purely lust/sex toy thing in his case. (not surprising she was his ‘favorite’ wife ? which in itself is against his own teaching about equal treatment)

On the issue of ‘Islam is not bad’... well :) bearing in mind Qu’ranic finality and allowing of sex with captive slaves ‘for all time’ (Sura23.5-6) I think there is something to worry about.
Coupling this with the stated objectives of the Islamic Council of Vic being

1. To vigilantly maintain and apply the true Islamic doctrines as, contained in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah AS PRACTICED by the Holy Prophet Mohamed (May Allah's Blessings and Mercy be Upon Him) at all times in the carrying out of the objects of this Constitution.

Looking at mohamed's life, and the above...its a worry.

When evaluating ‘white’ (or any) behavior.. no matter what they ‘felt’ was ok. we have a responsibility to compare all behavior with Christ, and his teaching, then we are on safe ground. Can we justify those things from the NT ?