ROB
those points you raised should be scrutinized in relation to Islamic law to see how acheivable they are in that light.

I quite agree myself with your points, but lets look

1/ Obey the law of the land: but my religion requires me to pray in a certain pysical manner, (facing mecca, prostrated) 5 times a day, can I do this in my job ? My job requires me to be clean shaven (Sikh's) but my religion says I must have a beard (Islams also)
2/ Mix outside your own group.. "Islam:food laws, haram and halal. sorry..aint gonna happen.. 'you' and your food are unclean mate :)

3/ Respect Peoples right to choose differently: Err.. if ur Muslim ad wish to choose Christianity of 'no' faith.... its apostacy.

4/ On Church bells, or Calls to prayer.. I agree.. I would not want either myself. But if the community I moved into already practiced one or the other, it's a bit hard to object.

PLERDSUS...High 5 4 u :)

ALCHEMIST... have u suddenly got religion ? :) where is your usual vitriol and poison pen ?
Tell us more MORE...about your 'deep religious' involvment..... might help us understand u more. I'm still worried about you...

PHILO.. on the Talmud=>Sharia (and Jesus reaction to the stiff starchy tradition) .. well said mate :)

COL.. agreed on all points

LUKEY generally the Muslim view is to rationalize and justify it with "But things were different then" + "All things from God are good"
go onto MIRC, server=dalnet, /join #islam and chat with some about it.

Dear Unconquered Sun
you make some valid points:

"I understand that you think Muslim countries are backwards John, and in many, many ways they are. But we weren't that different not too long ago. Human beings are the same people we were over 1000 to 2000 years ago. We haven't change, our societies have evolved......give them a chance...."etc

This is exactly why I am terrified of the growing muslim population in Australia. It's like letting in a whole bunch of rednecks from the south of USA and letting them pray against rights for black people. Okay, a bit of an exageration, but see my point. Womens equality is only very recent, the right to an abortion is only recent, voting rights to both women and aborgines is recent compared with 1000s of years of religious monarchies.

So that is why I am scared.

It's already bad enough as a woman to have christian fundemantalist groups wanting to stop my right to have a medically safe abortion and make me feel guilty about it instead of putting their energy into what I believe more pending issues like pedophilia inside the church, world poverty etc, but then to have to deal with another group who make me feel guilty and disrespected because I'm not covering my hair, my belly button is showing and I talk to men who I'm not married to, the fact that their religion is the fastest growing religion in the world, that there are some incredibly smart terrorists causing bloodshed in every corner of the world......I'm sorry but I'm really scared.

I wish I could feel more comfortable. I love all cultures, religions, nationalities, but when it comes to a growing population of muslims in Australia is concerned, I'm scared out of my wits. It's not racisim, it's not fascism, it's fear. Fear of losing what I have already and I'm so lucky to have. My right as a woman to vote, to be treated as an equal, etc, stands on a fragile podium. It is not cemented in and supported by centuries of experience and consolidation.

minuet

You are needed at another thread. If you fear that your rights as a woman are threatened by Islam, try reading the posts from some very white, very non islamic men on the following thread
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=2466
the backlash against feminism. These are comments from men who would have you believe that your rights to vote, to have safe abortions, to seek political office, to be paid as an equal are in fact a plot by feminists to take over the world.

Whereever there is a perceived threat there are those who will claim that ALL Muslims or ALL feminists are plotting the demise of the western world as we know it. Please don't let the scaremongers win. Not all muslims believe in the subjugation of women. But some men do and they can be atheist, buddhist, hindu, jew, muslim or christian. Muslim women are vital intelligent women too - they are entitled to where the hijab if they want even if you and I find it hard to understand why they would cover their heads. But not all muslim women do wear the hijab - it is very much a matter of choice. Nor do they wish to be treated as second class citizens
. So take heart in the fact that Muslim women have similar values to you and I. And that not ALL muslim are extremists - to state a very cliched comment they are human beings too.

Well said minuet, you have a right and a reason to be scared. Unconquered sun, Japan as a humanitarian society, go there and you will see how humane they really are as a culture.

BD, the poison pen of god, nah you can keep it, no use to me. You and your ilk use it very well.

The politically correct will always say give them a go, even as those they support stick the knife in or blow you up, mainly because the PC's are cowards and change sides as it suits.

There is a number of ways to assimilate religious people into our country. Let them believe what they want, as long as it is not against our lifestyle. But restrict that belief and practise to their place of worship and the home, not in public. If they don't accept that, then get rid of them. Australia may be the last place to make a stand against the religious evil that is encompassing the world.

If we don't stand up for what we have achieved over the last 50 years, then we deserve to suffer. Our right wing religious politicians are making sure that we go down the drain, by their support of religious fundamentalism and evangelism.

Islam suppresses everyone, just like fundamentalist and evangelist christians would like to do. Islam is currently a hundred years away from being a reasonable religion. Anyone that says otherwise has their head in the sand. Just like with the invasion of christian religions around the world during the last couple of centuries, they have nothing in their minds but to take over and enforce their beliefs in what every way possible.

There is a common thread between all religions, act nice as you slowly wheedle your way into power and influence, then suppress and conquer. So be afraid minuet we all should be. You must understand that it is the PC's of this world that are now in control and they are as much an evil ism as is religion and they can't assimilate either.

To BOAZ_David

Okay, okay
You mention that the New Testament was a great leap forward, and it is true. Although I am not christian, I really can't say that I object to anything in the new testament.
But many christians consider the Old Testament to be part of their bible. This opens up some great contradictions in Christianity. I have heard many chrisitian conservatives say "An eye for an eye" when supporting the death penalty and then quoting from the New Testament when at sermons. So this is an absolute contradiction. One moment, God is a jealous god who rules over his people absolutely, and in another chapter, he proclaims love for all, and tolerance and all that.

Same thing in Islam. One part of the Koran does indeed say to slay all infidels, but another part says "To me, my religion, to you, your religion", and clearly doesn't support forcing people to join.

It seems to me that you are a bit biased. Christianity has some bad things in it's bible too, but you only look at the good parts and choose to ignore the bad parts (and that's why you have adapted to living in a modern society), while Islam has some good parts, but you only look at the bad parts.

All religion has stuff which contradicts the other stuff. This PROVES that it wasn't written by one guy, and was probably written and modified again and again over the centuries by many many people. It's a human construct. The whole thing.

And because it is a human construct, it is subject to change, and so I do believe that Muslim people can become moderate and change and live in our society. And, I've just realized I have ended up agreeing with the case for assimilation. Darn.

Okay, Okay, I've just realized that I have made some contradictions. Forgive me, I'm human, just like the author(s) of all religion texts.
But although I have come out into the open and said that Islam has to change, and yes, I have been caught with my foot in my mouth, I'd also like to say that I still believe in giving Islam a chance. All muslim people have to do, is to obey Australian law, and I believe that most muslim people will agree to that. I still have no problems with my next door neighbour being Muslim, and I do not mind if they immigrate to this country. I have faith that they can adapt, while keeping their religion intact.