Excellent article, John, but I think there may be constitutional difficulties in making it compulsory to answer the census question on religion.

And even more in ensuring it's answered truthfully. A very silly idea.

I wonder does John miss Pauline Hanson. John is a long time racists and will always be. He is using Muslims as he has used Asians, southern Europeans and black's in the past. Claw back under your rock John. I’m sure there was a John in England in 1066 saying these Anglos will never fit in.

Multiculturalism is the most treacherous, dangerous policy ever foisted on the Australian people by our fawning politicians who take us for granted while toadying to minorities who simply will not make the effort to fit in, but who enjoy the advantages of living here. There are about 900,000 foreigners living permanently in Australia who haven’t bothered to become citizens. What do our wet governments do about it? They drag out the same old advertisement around this time of the year “inviting” these shadow dwellers to become citizens, saying there has never been a better time to do it, as though Australian citizenship is on a par with buying a used car. Do it now or go, should be the message

We have people who, even though they are citizens and have similar backgrounds and culture to the host population (and who are good and valuable people) go around thinking of themselves as Italian, Greek, English etc. even though they have been living here for years. We now have successive generation people of “ethnic” (I loathe that word) background who have never even been to the country of their forebears thinking of themselves as something other than Australian, thanks to the fad of multiculturalism. And, it must be said, many Australians think of people lacking names like “Smith” or “Jones” as not quite Australian. There doesn’t appear to be a serious commitment to being Australian, even among people of largely similar cultures and beliefs who are citizens of the one country.

Not satisfied with that, the multiculturalists decided that it is a would be a good idea to gradually impose 300,000 or so Muslims on the country; people who will never fit into a Western democratic society, no matter how “nice” or “moderate” they are as individuals. And, to top it all off, our government has decided to consult Muslim leaders on matters that the Muslims themselves say has nothing to do with their religion, but with twisted, criminal individuals - breaking one of the tenets of secular democracy – politics and religion do not mix. What will the payback be?

What a shocking piece of bigoted and ignorant vilification.

So, John ... what shall we do with all those Christians who also believe that our society is immoral and who can't wait for it to end (with the second coming)?

The problem is religion as a whole, not one specific set of beliefs or one group of people.

No where in this bilious piece of fascist and Right wing diatribe was there any description of how assimilation should occur. Moreover, it simply assumes a white Australian culture exists.

Would someone please give John Stone the address of a nursing home where they don't mind listening to the incessant ravings of an incontinent old colonialist. A nice room with a portrait of Sammy Griffith and Queen Liz on the wall, some kitsch Australiana here and there, a good hard mattress and pillows (no soft poofy stuff for this bloke thanks) and don't forget - he only eats Australian food.(whatever that is)

Colin & Rainier: Rainier John never mentioned a nursing home or its inmates, nor poofs (your description - not John's) Colin - vilification, that's vilification of a crowd of pagan islamics who call ALL non moslems infidels. Whose koran demands our (all non-moslems) death. These same nutters whose members strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent unwary, unarmed civilians, men-women and children. You will say not all moslems are murderous, craven, gutless killers. Quite right, would you believe that we have a moslem friend who I doubt would strap a bomb to her body. But! how do you differentiate a "moderate" from a stinking, gutless killer? - could either of you 'bleeding hearts?' do so. Yes there are so-called Christian loonies, but as yet they have not become murderers.
Unfortunately John I must agree with what you have written. I also know as a Christian I must love all, and as far as possible I do. I know as a Christian I am to turn the other cheek, but as well I am not to invite craven killers into my home to do so - that would be a stupid act. I would hate to send real moderates 'home' but what else can I do? - PLEASE WHAT ELSE? numbat

numbat, get to know and discuss this with more than ten muslims that have an opionon on this. the construction and representation of Muslim and Muslim religion is conveniently simplistic to scare mongering in media coverage. I'm sure you would understand that this is often the same for Christians (and Christian issues) as well.
And by the way, just as many Christians have enacted acts of terrorism.

In his first sentence John refers to the "rapidly growing Muslim problem". There is no Muslim problem! There is only a problem with racists who would like to blame some group in society for all perceived "problems". Hitler used this technique to blame the Jews for Germany's "problems" - the answer was the Final Solution.
If there is no Muslim problem, the rest of John's article falls in a heap, where it belongs.

rossco,get your head out of your fundamentals and take a trip around Western Sydney.You have no idea.

Happy to discuss ethnically-based crime openly, John - shall we start with the Snowtown murders?

Collin Mullane

it seems that the media has done a right good job of hmm shall we say "effecting" (rather than a less circumspect term...) your thinking.

Either that or you have not come to grips with the Biblical Christ.

If you have, then most of what you say of an anti Christian manner is malicious, i.e. You know the truth, but deliberately supress it and present in its place a falsfication.

I can accept criticism of individuals who have supposedly acted in the name of Christ, but who's behavior is clearly errant. But that doesn't change the pure foundation of the Gospel of Christ.

Or... you speak from various anecdotal events, which have no relation to the Christ of history and scripture, and are thus plain without understanding of the scriptural facts.

If its the first one, then I suggest some serious and humble relfection. If it's the 2nd, then please do some reading for yourself .. and discover that One who is above every name. Who is the source of peace which passes understanding.

RANIER
well noted, about 'how' assimilation might occrr.
I have some suggestions.

1/ Education. From a young age, the morality, art, poetry, achievements and history of our early settlement and prevailing culture is inculcated in a range of creative activities. Blemishes and failures are also worthy of study, so as not to repeat the same mistakes.

2/ There can be a range of 'assimiliation' related rewards, replacing all such 'multi-cultural' types.

3/ Universities should be instructed to portray our national character in specific 'prevailing culture terms' just as some presently (though illegally) steal class time which they use to ram left wing agenda's down paying students throats.
4/ The Media should be required to allocate some space for 'assimilation' related coverage on a regular basis.

This is all tip of the iceberg stuff of course...

Arjay
So what is the problem?

Culture doesn't cause violence.

Why the behaviour of devalued and marginalised groups tends to be widely perceived as more culturally (or theologically) determined than that of dominant culture (which theologically speaking [in Australia] is Christianity) is beyond me. When criminal things are done by someone who either identifies or fits the profile of a person from the dominant culture (which in this country is Christianity), people generally explain the criminal act in terms of individual psychopathology. Yet when criminal things are done by someone who identifies as Muslim (a religion devalued by the dominant group [Christians]), people allege that the criminal act is somehow tied to the religion, or that Islam is to blame, or that Muslims are somehow innately more criminal than Christians - which is a load of bollocks.

Thanks Arjay for your realism.

Five years of mental health community nursing in the west - vis a vis: Wentworth Community Health Services is my experience of the real world.

Warm fuzzie and fluffy values do not change what I experienced as a community mental health nurse!

We have a serious problem of religious, philisopical and racial intolerance displayed by a sizable proportion of the Islamic community and to the bleeding heart left, those filthy anglo racists are all to blame.

I used to teach in our West.Recently a retired Head of a mostly Muslim primary school told me how she had a security guard escort her to and from her car just before she retired.

My sister bumps into an Muslim Lady and apologises,"Yes you'll be really sorry when we take over your country," came the retort.

My son and his friends get assaulted for wearing the Aussie flag on Australia Day.It ends with a stand off between the police and 40 thugs.No one is arrested because they are all under the age of 18.

I have been run off the road by these people merging in traffic behind me and giving me the finger as they pass.Pushed off the footpath as they walk four abreast down George St Sydney.

A very sizable portion of the the Muslim population are both intolerant and violent.Now would the likes of rossco,kalweb,rainer and strayan tell me how this makes me and John Stone the racists.As I've said,get your heads out of your fundamentals and smell the reality.

Arjay

I agree with what you are saying. Clearly you have misread my post!

Please re-read what I said mate.

Cheers
Kay

Ahhhh, Arjay, my loving and hugging br[other]. Why do you perceive difference as such a threat to you? Are you that insecure? It sounds like you are experiencing what we call refer to as irrational fears of cultural extinction typically exhibited by border loving nationalists.

If a White driver gave you the finger, it'd be road rage wouldn't it Arjay. But because they looked Muslim, the culture made them do it. How convenient.

John you do have some interesting ideas. Personally I don’t think you go far enough as I consider there are other potentially violent groups living in Australia. I am particularly concerned about the rural population of Queensland and their antipathy towards government in Canberra. Based on a personal survey conducted in a small country town I found that twenty percent of those in the bar expressed extreme views on the federal government and the life style of Canberra with particular wrath aimed at those who had retired on large public service pensions. Assuming the rural population of Queensland to be approximately six hundred thousand and assuming that the situation in the majority of rural Queensland was only a third as bad as the town I surveyed; that still leaves approximately forty thousand rural Queenslanders who are potential supporters of violence against the government. I would therefore recommend that extra funding be found for the ADF to secure the Brisbane line and that potential rural leaders be carefully monitored. I am also particularly concerned about the wearing of moleskins and akubras and feel that these articles identify a particular minority view and of course an akubra could be used for weapon concealment therefore I would suggest that wearing of these items be banned forthwith and if it does result in some rural Queenslanders leaving the country for say Texas then I am sure that Australia can bear the loss.

I personally love our multicultural society, but I think that in the current climate of terrorism and paranoia about muslims, it is probably not a bad idea for our government to postpone or curb immigration from Islamic countries. It is without doubt the worst time for a muslim to be living in Australia right now so why make it even more tense than it already is.

I suggest we step back, take a deep breath, and look at the issues surrounding the future of multicultural Australia. There seems to be a lot of anger and fear and right now is our chance to discuss and analyse what the implications of an increased muslim community will mean to our culture and our future.

There are reasons why the extreme right winged Le Pen nearly got elected in France a few years ago so no matter how idealistic we might be about living together as one big happy multicultural family, the truth is that very few countries in the world have racial harmony.

If a country as tolerant as Holland can't get it right, then what hope have we? Most Australians, and most french and Dutch are pretty tolerant, but if the boundaries are pushed too far, there is going to be a backlash. This happened in Nazi Germany, it happened in France last year with the hijab. Extremist religious groups such as Jews and Muslims who seek to live a separate way of life from the mainstream do fine until their growing population starts to make the mainstream population feel like foreigners.

I have some beautiful muslim friends who will remain so until they start asking me to let them broadcast prayers throughout my suburb, and banning the sale of alcohol.

By the way, if SBS is ever taken off the air, it will be our greatest loss ever.

hi minute,

Europe being 25 years ahead of us on the multiculture experiment is a vital point, sadly as the ideals are based on goodness, it doesnt work. To deny there is a problem, well we can't, this blog alone shows there is a problem. People in this string are been called racist and so forth, exreamist or nazi, its crazy they are most likey normal people who are just sick to death of this culteral fad called PC. I originally was for PC when it first came about, but as it progressed i found it to hypocritical and open to misuse! Many other people i know have been the same.

To me the need to legislate agaisnt free speech, ie vilification laws only shows a weakness, or need for protection of the idea in the first place.

If idea's have worth they should be able to stand their ground in debate. im sure all of us here can take a bit on the chin for the sake of free speech. itd be great to drop the squealy name calling and have some clear debate.

As a Australian university student, I must admit I'm shocked at the immediate stinging responses of some members of the public in response to the article written by John Stone.

In particular I wish to single out the post made by Colin Mullane, who quote, called the article "a shocking piece of bigoted and ignorant vilification". He then went on to say "The problem is religion as a whole, not one specific set of beliefs or one group of people.".

Newsflash buddy. The only bigot in this forum to date is you, shooting down the guys article with emotive terms and negative connatations in a lame attempt of "throwing mud and hoping some sticks". But hey, that wasn't enough. You then had to go on and stereotype religion as a "problem".

The reality is there are people in this world who have an opinion who's different to yours, and they have the same rights to express it. How about making at least a point towards your arguement, rather then coming online and just abusing people.

Ranier, your post wasn't much better. I just really hope you guys realise that while you're pointing all the fingers, you're the ones who have the problem here. If anything, that anti free-speech behaviour reminds me of Nazi Germany. Let's strive in an open forum like this to cheerfully debate alternative point of views , rather then cling to dogmatism.

As for Strayans well made point:
"Yet when criminal things are done by someone who identifies as Muslim...people allege that the criminal act is somehow tied to the religion...that Islam is to blame".

Strayan, I agree that it is easy to start pointing fingers and consequently developing dangerous stereotypes in the way you have discussed.
However an inherent problem lies with the Koran, the fundamental text of Islam. It is my understanding that the Koran has many policies that disagree with the democratic foundation of our beliefs. In this case there would be a valid stereotype of muslims of having some un-democratic belief. That's where I think a lot of the fear comes from.

Although I agree that there are a lot of moderate muslims out there who are strongly democratic, there will always be people of ANY group who will strongly adhere to the "book" of what they're about. Therefore rather then being naive and embracing all cultures, I think we need to make sure at the least that the culture's values and attitudes are compatible with our own.

Justin86.. WELL said... (about arguing the ISSUE, rather than throwing mud.. verrrrrry shabby Colin Mullane !)

MINUET "3 fold amen" :) you said a lot of good things, but in the context of this thread you summed up so well

"When their growing Populations make the mainstream population feel like foreigners"

In anthropological terminology this is called 'culture shock' and usually it has 3 outcomes.

1/ The culturally shocked person embraces completely the source of the shock and "goes native" rejecting their own background.

2/ They reject outright the new and 'cling' to their own culture, glorifying the good in it, and denegrating all that is 'new' in the culture they are being confronted with.

3/ They adjust to the new, not rejecting their own, but recognize what is going on, and assimilate to a comfortable degree to their new situation.

Now.. the problem comes, when all the voices are saying that the mainstream culture should be taking the 3rd approach to new cultures entering australia,, RATHER THAN THOSE cultures adjusting to OURS.

Yes.. I confess.. I 'shouted' ... to make a point. So, this leads to the issue of effective social policy.

SOCIAL POLICY
Government, should be shaping policy and thinking, such that all would be immigrants NEVER expect the mainstream Australian culture to adjust to theirs.. but the other way around.

This can be distilled down to specifics. It is not a difficult thing to identify particular cultural issues in culture/religion xyz which will be potential problems for such people coming to Australia.

These issues can be explained to them, along with the needed sanction of "P" plate citizenship until they have demonstrated in verifiable ways they are cabable of 'Full Licence' to live here as harmonious citizens.

For those who say "why doesn't mainstream Australia take outcome 3 in regard to new cultures coming here ?" Simple answer:

Imagine you are an atheist, and I am a Christian, You invite me to your house, and just as you invite us to partake of a meal, I INSIST that we 'give thanks' for the food. Nice ?

I don't like John Stone, or any current politician for that matter and I can't stand the religious. So where does that leave me. Like some others I believe it is the whole of religion that is the problem and will continue to be until if is finally outed for what it is.

But to start with I have to agree with Stones comments regarding the muslim cultural mind set, it does not fit here.

We have successfully integrated many from different cultures, as well as virtually destroying the one that was here first. But when it comes to those that have but one desire, to change our way of life to reflect theirs, it is time to draw the line.

Multi culturalism it a total failure and all it has done is split us into groups that don't understand each other. If this trend continues, we will all be bowing to the east under armed zealots.

I would doubt that there would be many of the PC ilk posting this thread, that have experienced insurgent violence, or warfare, but with your attitude, you soon will, that will change your comfort zone.

You will note that the religious, post to these threads then try to defend themselves with the same old lines, over and over, thats a big worry. Check out the definition of insanity and psychological aberrations and you will see what we are up against.

There are people that have been in this country for many years, and they still can't speak or read english, this is wrong and should be stopped. All people who can't speak or write this language, should not be citizens or allowed to stay here for more than 2 years.

"Before I am accused of stirring up race hatred, the multiculturalism industry's invariable response when it lacks reasoned arguments, consider some figures."
Yes lets, because when you can't defend your position against claims of racism/xenophobia/ethnocentrism/intolerance/religious supremacy/stupidity through reasoned arguments, it's much easier to launch a counter-attack and bend some statistics.

The survey: http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/TEL050101030_1.pdf Remember that this is an online poll, which would skew the results.

Stone says that 6% found the attacks fully justified-- which is false, 6% found them justified "on balance". Next up: "A further 24 per cent, while not condoning the bombings, expressed sympathy with the feelings and motives of their perpetrators." Unless YouGov doesn't have the correct questions on their website, then this is also false, it is not a further 24%, it is an entirely different question and is not limited to exclude those who condoned the attacks. On this point it should also be noted that there were two levels of sympathy (13% a lot, 11% a little) and that having sympathy with the feelings and motives of someone does not have mean that they sympathise with their overall views or conduct.

Finally is Stone's 32% claim, the question is one where you pick the option you most agree with, so it is incorrect for Stone to say that 32% *believe* that. 31 of 32 desire change through non-violent means only, 56% say Muslims should live with it and the rest were "I don't know". There were no options for "some aspects need to change", and there would be a significant amount of people here who would also say that much of modern society is "decadent and immoral" and should be stopped.

So upon reading the actual questions and results it is quite apparent that Stone is misrepresenting the results. This question of his is quite telling: "Don't they have children, or grandchildren, who will live in an increasingly Muslim-influenced Australia?" It isn't about terrorism, or multiculturalism being bad, or even about avoiding particular Islamic values; these things are just a pretext for broad cultural protectionism.

What difference is implied between "Muslim-influenced" and "Islam-influenced"?

John Stone begs us to consider some figures before accusing him of stirring up race hatred. Deuc has nicely exposed the degree to which Stone has massaged the figures. But it's worth pointing out that even on Stone's own account of the figures, they sink like a, well, stone. He reports that 60 Muslims in Australia have had training in terrorist activities. That's 0.018 per cent of the 330,000 self-declared Muslims in Australia, which Stone acknowledges greatly underestimates the number of Muslims here. In other words, at least 99.98 per cent of Muslims in Australia have had no such involvement. He claims the YouGov poll found that 6 per cent of Britain's Muslims believe the July 7 bombings justified. A former Treasury secretary should know that's 94 per cent of British Muslims who refused to condone the bombings. The same poll, he reports, found that 32 per cent of British Muslims believe "Western society is decadent and immoral." But he offers no data on what percentage of Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians, Roman Catholics, Orthodox Jews, and the other religiously committed believe the same thing. One doesn't have to be a defender of multiculturalism to see that Stone's figures fail to support his case. Of course, that somebody should be so eager to target a large and diverse religious community, the overwhelming majority of whom are innocent of the actions we all deplore, is indeed rather suggestive of racial hatred. Mr Stone does not want to share Australia with Muslims. So it might be interesting to see the results of another survey question: what percentage of Australians wishes to share this country with John Stone?

I'll keep asking and asking and so here it is again-- what the hell is this so called "Australian culture"?

++
Hey Justin86, please don't (deliberately? ) confuse criticism of right wing views as censoring free speech. John Stone has been given more air play and print space in Australian media than any Leftist commentators over the last 10 years. Unless you think inciting racial hate against all Muslims is ok? And if you do that’s your right, but don't call criticism censorship.

++
Boaz David, some of your ideas have merit but I think you assume all native Australians practice a civil democratic and mono-value culture. I know many immigrants who already practice a much more civilized culture than native born Australians.
I'll post you back soon, I'm busy as

The movement in time with our culture and maturing society have emphasised a same and desired future in moral and religious undertones.

As stated by our "Good friends" the Americans, according to Mr Howard, we are a western society with christian roots.

The ignorant Australians I am speaking about are those who will vilify their own culture and damn those with the right for freedom of speech to protect what is theirs.

Throughout history the wars of the world have not been won with both hands tied behind our backs and our mouths gagged all in the name of being multicultural.

The assimilation process will not take place if we continue to damn those who bring to the attention of public for debate, that the system supposed, is breaking down and is broken

A MAN WITH A HISTORY
Geoffrey “Abraham” Levi........ what an incredibly rich name. Including the patriarch of the Israelites, and the Temple attendants from the Tribe of Levi. One of the 3 most common names among Jews, preserved from the days of Levi down to this, signifying (unless some strange thing happened in your family) that you stand as a living testimony of, and giving a direct biological connection to the reality of the Biblical record, the tribe of Levi and the covenant promises to
G-Ds people.

WHEN CULTURES MEET ( II kings 20)
12 At that time Merodach-Baladan son of Baladan king of Babylon sent Hezekiah letters and a gift, because he had heard of Hezekiah's illness.

13 Hezekiah received the messengers and showed them all that was in his storehouses—the silver, the gold, the spices and the fine oil—his armory and everything found among his treasures.

There was nothing in his palace or in all his kingdom that Hezekiah did not show them.

WHEN CULTURES COLLIDE

Geoffrey, what happened after this ? You know it of course... The Babylonian envoys went back and told of the treasure, and the weakness of Hezekiah, and in due course the Babylonians came and took it all, slaughtering the Israelites in the process.

Just as Isaiah rebuked King Hezekiah, is it possible that a word of rebuke to yourself is in order ?
You seem to be making the same mistake Hezekiah was, ‘attibuting only good’ to those of a hostile or incompatable religious/cultural persuasion. Be true to your name and heritage, listen to the voice of the prophets. Most of all, be true to G-D.

John Stone – are you for real? Your ideas will simply invoke more religious & racial division, the cause of the problem in the first place. Your ideas are akin to killing an ant with a house brick ( assuming it is your objective to eliminate terrorism, & terrorism only). As to Moslems integrating into Australian society, well, I seem to meet with fully ‘integrated’ Moslems on a daily basis. I don’t know where you live, but I suggest you broaden your horizons & move to, say, central west Sydney. You obviously do not have the social experiences to be judging on the matter of terrorism

Congratulations John Stone what a brilliant way to provoke internal terrorism. Let us really slam our Muslim citizens, let us isolate and degrade them and paint them as a problem that we must deal with. Lets get ASIO onto them, ban any literature of theirs which we deem unacceptable, decide who is radical and who is not, close their mouths up altogether.

Meanwhile we'll work with the Americans, engage in aggressive war with them, support Halburton stealing their oil, occupy their countries, corrupt their officials and here in Australia we will not hear a word that they may have to say.

How long do you think it will take for some frustrated individuals will try and use violent means to vent themselves. Not long I would suppose.

The one group we should be talking to and listening to is the so called radical Muslim leaders. Talk hurts no-one, we may be surprised that they may have a point or two about how their co-religionists have been treated, stripped of the religious language, what is being said is not all that radical and a good deal based on truth.

But we will never know will we, because people like you are doing everything to make sure the only thing we do hear is some bomb going off in a shopping centre. Thanks John, people like you will be never satisfied until you get what you want – that is turn some frustrated, alienated, silenced, youth into a suicide bomber.

Could I point out to you that Muslims have been in Australia since the 1860s and in numbers for some thirty years – what changed that suddenly turned my fellow citizens into outcasts.

Numbat: Dictionary definition of pagan - one who is not Muslim, Christian or Jew. The timing of Easter is to do with moon phases isn't it? Pre-Islam in Iran, the Persians worshipped Zoroaster, that's usually regarded as a pagan religion.

BD: prayers at meal times. I've been asked to join in the prayers when I've shared meals with Christian friends who know I'm Jewish. A Muslim man who was staying with them (in fact he made dinner if I remember right) also prayed. It wasn't a big deal.

Of course there are problems to be faced with regard to fundamentalist Muslims - but blaming all Muslims is silly as is disregarding the majority moderates who comply with and respect the law the same as other Australians. If minorities feel threatened by the majority, they are less likely to mix, and that will make the problem worse. Best way to forge the future is to get to know each other better.

I've discussed this issue with Muslims originating from different countries. We visit each other in our homes, share meals. We argue about politics, religion, relationships, sex. It's fascinating. I love it. I mix equally with Christians, had my photo taken with an Archbishop last week.

Try responding to people not labels, life is less threatening.

Swilkie,this is not about race but beliefs and idelogy.My Youngest son's best friend for many years is of Lebanese origin.They are a very productive family and have assilmilated well into our society as have many other people from the Middle East.

Now we have a sizable portion of people of Islamic faith who want to change not only our lifestyles,but also the way we can be allowed to think.I take exception to this and won't tolerate it no matter how much the left scream racist.The left have seen a small portion of their mult- cultural utopia fall asunder and are in denial.Just screaming "Racist,"isn't going to make it better.Sure there will be insecure racists who will take the opportunity to say,"I told you so."

If we temper the pace of social and ethnic change to accommodate the general populace,then evolutionary rather than revolutionary change will happen.

I say too,that we suspend all Muslim immigration until the present impasse is resolved.

There are many things I too don't like about our society,but I don't
proclaim murdering infidels,assulting "skips" or saying that Aussie sluts deserve to be raped because of the way they are dressed.

We have a thing called democracy and the rule of law that is relatively secular and thank god for that,since humans have a habit of perverting or destroying the most pristine and beautiful things on our planet in the name of their deity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Muslims are not the problem, it is the people who want to let them in. Multi cultists are social terrorists. It is these people who want to transform Australian society undemocratically into some kind of multiracial multi religious utopia that are the problem.

If we take that sample of the british you gov poll, 6 out of 526 respondents 6 to many that believe the London bombings were justified 'on balance'. As the muslim population increases so does the amount of fundamentalists. An increasing muslims population would add to over 10,000 potential suicide bombers living in Britain out of a population of some 1.5 million.

I am amazed that Australia has escaped an internal war. I certainly don't agree with some of the views posted on this thread. I don't agree with multiculturalism, present immigration levels, unnecessary social change to suit some marxist ideological agenda. I fell marginalized, sidelined and alienated. Does that justify me becoming a suicide bomber? Bring out the guns...

Arjay, what is this 'sizeable portion' you allude to? My guess is that well under 1% of the Islamic faith condones the use of violence Jihadists are extremists & compare in number to the fascist christian extremists that have existed thru history. I may also suggest that one examine the number of alleged 'christians' that support the use of violence this very day..

come down from your 'IVORY TOWERS'!!

It is true - Islamic culture is at conflict with Austrlian society and there is a 'Muslim problem' in Australia.

It is not about terrorism - It is about issues in our society which have existed for 15 years!!

Let me outline 'some' of what Lebanese Muslims get up to in Sydney - in Lakemba, Punchbowl, Bankstown etc;

-Australian girls are gang raped, not for 'pleasure' or for 'power' as is common in rape, but because they are Australian and are hated. There has been a spate of such attacks - girls are told they deserve it because they are 'Aussie sluts" and that they will be raped "Leb style" - they are passed around to car loads of "cousins" who are contacted on mobile phones.

-There is a special police task force working in the Western suburbs, Task Force Gain, set up to fight "Lebanese gangs" - the NSW Police use this description.

-There has been a culture of 'hand guns' and 'drive by shootings' introduced into Sydney by Lebanese - the drive by shooting on the Lakemba Police Station; the double murder drive by shooting in the 'Rocks' Sydney.

-NSW Police are shot at whenever they drive down Talopea St. Punchbowl - it is documented and as been reported in the press.

-Every day in the Daily Telegraph there will be some report where the Police are seeking men "of middle eastern appearance", i.e. Lebanese.

It is just 'some' of what happens every day - Lebanese Muslims hate Australia and do not see themselves as Australian - they call themselves "Lebs" and they call us "Aussie Skips" - it is not racist to say what is happening!!

HAND YOUR DAUGTHER TO THE LEBS TO BE GANG RAPED IN AUSTRALIAN SOCIETY BECUASE SHE IS AUSTRALIAN AND A HATED "INFIDEL", AND THEN TELL ME IF IT IS ""RACIST"" TO SAY THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH LEBANESE MUSLIMS WHO HATE AUSTRALIA!!

Those who don't want to acknowledge that there is indeed a growing middle-eastern crime problem, you are sadly kidding yourselves.

Such views are common among those who's sole experience of multiculturalism is the restaurant they visit on a weekly basis, with their everyday lives in North Sydney being perforated only by those migrants who have assimilated nicely....

I've mentioned here before that I grew up in the low-income housing estates with predominantly the Vietnamese & Lebanese, and stood by why these two ethnocentric groups had vicious gang fights, often ending up with the police being called up to our local high school, and ambulances to ferry the seriously injured to hospital.

After living among these communities, I think I am qualified to say that they are indeed ethnocentric, I'd go as far to say racist to the core, I know all the little nuances that the Geoffrey Brahm Levy's of this world have no idea about!

That an Australian girl can be called a slut for simply being white, or an Australian guy can be viciously assaulted for simply being white, and that Lebanese used to go out "Aussie bashing" in my area on weekends. That every single Lebanese I knew was a lunatic when it came to girls, as though they thought they were all Casanova's.....I could have told the police that those gang rapes were going to happen in 1992, when I was 15!

I encourage the bigoted, self hating whites out there to read up on the anthropologist Dr. Richard Basham, who has written extensively on Asian & middle-eastern crime. He doesn't mince words, he examines that it is their culture which gives rise to the gun violence, the drug pushing, ect.

To deny we are in serious trouble however, is cowardly, but, although there are lunatics in this very forum who wish to use statistics to deny such problems, they are real, just as they are real wherever Muslims settle in the west......

SHOSHANA

Hmm I don’t think you read my last line very closely... The scenario you described is quite ok... culturally acceptable “The Host” invites guests (note..invites not forces) to share in thanx for the meal. Very nice. What I said was “If I as a GUEST goto YOUR house and start telling you that it’s MY custom to give thanx, and therefore we should do it”.....that.. is bad manners, ignorance and rudeness. ( I only ‘shout’ when the unshouted point is not seen :)

I’m starting to gain an insight into your life now, it seems you enjoy cross cultural interaction, as do I. When I’m in Malaysia, they all tell me I’m almost not even like a white man, because my language and manner are so...’local’... This is great. We should not let our race or culture be a barrier between us and healthy friendly caring cross cultural relationships

Social dynamics and the ‘political’ animal in us all, deep down, desires that which is ‘most familiar’ and within our comfort zone to be the ‘prevailing’ undertone of social life. Its not particularly manifest in the average person who just wants to get on with life, but it is demonstrated in the dynamic/get up and go/social entrepreneur and empire builder that brought us the Lenins, Mao’s Napoloens, Gengis Khans etc..

People at the cutting edge of a society, at the top, recognize the inherent dangers in social and political trends. Ghengis Khan first began his wars as a response to discriminatory trade issues, rather than the desire to ‘rule the world’.

Please note carefully... that at least in my case, I do not consider ‘all muslims’ to be any worse than my own mob. I just listen to the 3 prophets History, Anthropology, Psychology.

I rather like Amos also :) Have you read that book ? Fascinating how he condemned all the nations in a circle around Israel...(one can see the Israelites agreeing..nodding as he lists them one by one..). only to focus in on ‘them’ at the end. None of us are ‘without sin’.

If you want to argue that there is a "Muslim problem" because 0.02 percent of Muslim-Australian's commit crime, then you have accept that there is a problem with Christians because of the crime Christian-Australian's commit.

If you want to argue (as Thor has done) that there is a "Muslim problem" because a bunch of racists (who just happen to define themselves as Muslims because they feel a sense of affiliation with other people called Muslims) behave in a racist way then you have to accept that you are not talking about religion or a problem with a religion, but about racism.

If you want to argue that Muslims in Australia are in-fact "guests" of the host nation, someone likened it to having people over for dinner, then you are displaying a level of blatant ignorance to the fundatmental right of citizenship. If you are relaxed and comfortable thinking about Muslims in this way (as guests, not as citizens with rights) and feel that Muslims should have to demostrate their loyalty the host nation, then you are trying to introduce two-tier citizenship:

"Muslim citizens have the right to be bad as much as non-Muslims have a right to be bad; you don’t take away citizenship of people because you don’t agree with their views. So once you start saying Well actually, we’re going to put a loyalty test, or we’re going to put an extra standard for Muslims to behave. Well what’s to stop them turning round and saying Well actually, you’re already treating us like citizens." http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/spirit/stories/s1416682.htm

Australia does not face a Muslim problem. If suffers from racism, sexism and homophobia and many other "isms".

Boaz david:"I as a GUEST goto YOUR house and start telling you that it’s MY custom to give thanx, and therefore we should do it”.....that.. is bad manners, ignorance and rudeness."

My response to that included the observation that not only did the Muslim guest not insist his Christian hosts say prayers with him, he in fact joined in quite happily with them.

If your example was supposed to be an analogy ie that Muslims live in Australia as 'guests' of the host nation, well I missed that completely, right off my screen. They are Australian residents/citizens same as you and me, as an analogy it just doesn’t wash, far too obscure. Thanks to Strayan to pointing this out - I sometimes think I live on a different planet to BD and others.

The personal stories I occasionally pop in are an attempt to redress the balance in response to the poison and vitriol that emanates from some posts about all Muslims.

Academic research to be published later this year correlates ‘negative attitudes’ about certain groups within society, with ‘false beliefs’ held about those groups. My observation is that those with 'negative attitudes' defend their 'false beliefs' to the death regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

For those that think Muslims hate "infidels" (non-believers) your ignorance is as enormous as your prejudice (they usually coincide).

The Koran is explicit on the topic, people of the book (Christians and Jews) cannot be forced to convert and must be respected in their beliefs and customs. It is even deemed wrong to proselytize for conversion. Islam has a long and proud tradition of religious tolerance, only marred by communal conflicts from time to time, but otherwise very good.

Christians have a terrible record, one of the worst of any religion the world over.

People really need to know what radical Muslims are in fact saying. In this you have to recognise how they express themselves in a very different tradition than the European, but aside from the mode of expression what they have to say does make sense, they have a case worth responding to.

In the example of the banned books that refer to suicide-bombing as an effective weapon. Well the sad truth is that it is effective, whatever you may think of the moral aspects of it. We have banned books based on the fact that in this small way a fact has been stated. Whether or not it is being promoted depends on reading the entire text (something we are all now denied).

Wake up you dunderheads – you are the ones feeding terrorism by denying a voice to what may be legitimate issues. You don't have to be too bright to realize that if someone believes passionately in something the best method to avoid them doing something terrible to get their point across is simply to listen to what they have to say and argue about it openly.

This is what we are not doing, on the grounds that discussing anything fairly in effect supports terrorism when the opposite is true – the real supporters of terrorism are those who are boxing a small minority into a corner. Again you don't have to be terribly bright to concede that point.

Strayan and Greg, great posts there!

I might just add that many who have condemned Muslims here appear to define their citizenship as all encompassing and judge and jury of how is Australian and who is becoming Australian.

My family has been here in this nation much longer than the 200 + years but I continue to experience judgments and assessments about whether or not -what I do -and say, or look like’ is 'Australian'. Interestingly policies of Indigenous assimilation were imposed by invaders, not the original citizens of this country.

These same commentators find it difficult to explain to me what this mysterious monolithic Aussue culture is but nonetheless claim the high moral ground to judge who is or is not conforming.

When Howard proclaimed “We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come" I know he was not including me and my family in terms of who he was projecting the 'we'.

Those of us who have read more broadly know this new racism attempts to cleverly disguise their underlying biological and ethnocentric sentiments are not fooled.

The most infuriating thing for me is that good people, intelligent people, are being duped left, right and centre with this Right wing propaganda.

Rainier, mate. Do you really think that we would like done to "us" (evil white people?) what happened to the aboriginals? Do you want to see history repeat itself. In wars throughout history in all corners of the world, people act out of instinctive self interest.

WE act out of SELF INTEREST, which is exactly why multiculturalism is so dangerous. Muslims are'nt exactly weak and powerless...hmmm...I see a power struggle coming on. Power struggles are seen on this very thread, in parliament between political parties even between the labor party (left vs right). So it is always US and THEM.

By importing more different groups of people from different parts of the world, jealousy and resentment will reign and destroy social stability. Perhaps we should focus on resolving our ongoing issues with the aboriginals before jumping the gun with cockiness and overconfidence.

Ranier
Yeah mate look I'm not having a go at left or right or wateva groups contributing to the discussion. In fact I left my arguement with the point of "lets cheerfully debate alternate points of view". In fact to date my favourite post has been Duecs, which to me has torn shreds through John Stone's data.

My problem was with the militant abuse in the early posts which had absolutely nothing constructive to add to the arguement. It doesn't just come from left commentators either, we all know the people who'll write "your all a bunch of tree-hugging hippies" or words to that effect. The thing is no points are being made, the person is just being disrespectful and hoping that the character assassination can make up for their lack of thought on the issue.

I don't think anything can justify that behaviour, even if the writer believes hes inciting racial hatred.

Muslims make up about 1.5% of the Australian population. That means 98.5% are not Muslim. To suggest that such a small group is going to take over Australia and ruin our culture (whatever that is) is just absolute nonsense.
Even if 10% of Muslims living here were to set out to cause problems they would only represent 0.15 % of the total population. We should be glad we have such a harmonious society.
The Lebanese rapists? c'mon, that is history now, one small group which is now locked up. What about the rape of Aboriginal girls by white boys in so many of our regional locations which has gone on for years. Oh yes, they were probably Christian boys who went to church on Sunday and the girls were probably "trash" so that makes it OK.

Davo
Great post mate. I think thats the issue, that (rather unfortunately) people generally act on rational self interest. If we lived in a society where people truly respected and cared for each other as they do for themselves, there would be no rape, murder, jealously, theivery, and all those negative parts of human nature.

Now for some reason, in Western societies we tend to have this huge superiority complex; we think that somehow we are these great, wonderful, tolerant people who have everything worked out and we can save the world. It's almost like we think we're the Messiah! For example look at America, who came to the rescue in South Africa and was heriocally fought the apertaid. Yet a few years before at home, if you were "coloured" you couldn't even sit on the front seat of a bus!

I don't know where it comes from. Maybe because at present we're so much more wealthy than other nations, we think that we must be better people. I don't know. But I do know that when it comes to relationships, we're not doing too well ourselves already. Within our society, we can't keep our marriages together, we have huge problems with the Aborigines who's land our ancestors conquered, and with the multiculturism we've brought in to date, there has just been esculating racial tension and hatred.

Now suddenly, we've decided we have the ability to absorb large amounts of people who have a completely different value system to our own. It's all going to be swell. Everyone will live together in harmony, we will all tolerate each others beliefs and it will turn out to be a wonderful cosmopolitan experience. It really a case of rose coloured glasses. The truth is we will experience the same racial problems that other countries have sustained.

G'day everyone!

Well, to say the least, I am in absolute shock! Indeed I feel quite sick about what I have just read.

I went to the Domain > Faris QC > "Muslims Must Become Aussies Now". I couldn't believe the hostility/come hatred that I was reading from around 130 or so posters.

I have some very real problems with Islamic faith and its Muslim folowers, but I don't hate and I am not hostile. It is worth visiting this Blog to see and feel the groundswell of hatred. I am not suggesting that you will enjoy it, but it may give some people another view of we Aussies.

Some posters on Online Opinion can get stroppy etc at times. Compared to the Faris Blog site - they are just babies.

I will be interested to read your thoughts if you do go to the above.

Cheers
Kay

When you think about it, most of the posts are relevant information in understanding how people feel about this subject.

If we look at it from a historical aspect, you begin to see there may be a problem. We all know how well religion assimilates with those countries they move into. Some good examples are, our own country, Africa, the far east, the pacific, America's, in fact everywhere.

We all know how well the christians assimilated with the Australian aboriginies, don't we. Firstly they enter a country in small numbers, then they establish their communities, slowly increase their numbers and influence, terrorise and then take over and make the populance submit to their religious culture. It is called evangelism and the tactics are well known, all religions use them

There is nothing wrong with the people that come to this country who wish to become responsible members of it and adhere to our laws and ways of life. But when they try to bring their religious culture into it and demand more and more, using aggressive tactics, then problems begin. We can see that happening around the world at the moment, from all sides.

That is what we must look at, not the lovely individuals that have their own beleifs that come here, but the culture that is attached to their religion. Non religious culture that has been introduced to this country, has enhanced it greatly and we see that in entertainment, business, and especially the cuisine we now have. Much better than 3 veg and meat, or deep fried to death.

So we have to decide as to whether we want a comfortable diverse cultural country, or enforced religious cultural war, then suppression. All religions believe in the same god and use the same tactics, thats how bizarre and dangerous they are, they fight over the same thing and we suffer.

Yes ,we have another -ism called strayanism.ie living in denial of reality.

Arjay, Justin, Davo and others

Can you please read my post above, go to the site, and tell me what you think? I will be very interested.

Cheers
Kay

The fact you feel threatened by Muslim-Australian citizens participating in society, does not mean the rest of us feel the same. That is the difference between your reality and my reality Arjay. I support political participation, you feel as though your ownership of Australia under threat. You feel as though Australia is being attacked, because you can hear an alternate voice, by the mere presence of another socially constructed 'group'. That's what stereotyping does, constructs groups as somehow being different, competeting against each other - it allows you to reassure yourself that the problem lies outside the dominant group. That's when you end up with Stone's imaginary "Muslim problem".

The amount of misinformation given by some is stunning.

1. The problem is not racial it is based in ideological intolerance and totalitarianism. The same ideological intolerance occurs in the minds of the extreme anti-religious who would if they had a chance impose upon all their ideology. The level of hatred expressed indicates the level of passion with which they would impose upon those who do not conform to their view.

2. Some pretend that missionaries deliberately settled and inhabited Australia with the purpose of indoctrinating the indigenous people to become Christian. The fact is Australia was settled originally by the British as a penal colony not as a missionary outpost to indigenous people. Deliberate misinformation!

3. Missionary work done in other countries is not done as a migration programme. Missionaries teach and train local people in life skills, like orphanages, nursing, medicine, agriculture, building as well as faith etc. Non-indigenous missionaries leave it to the locally trained people to carry on the work. This is not what is happening with Muslim migrants who intend to set up their family, religion and culture on Australian soil by migration.

4. Transmigration in the formerly 95% Christian West Papua has been happening as 6,000 Muslim migrants each day are settled in West Papua, and the genocide of the 16,000 indigenous people has and is happening at the Muslim militia’s hands.

5. The true practise of the Christian faith does not incite criminal activity; it should encourage forgiveness and tolerance to opposition. That we oppose the criminalisation of established moral values should not incite criminal behaviour if the person is morally responsible. Only persons with criminal intent will resort to terror if they cannot dominate others

Australia has been a society where all responsible races, religions and cultures have co-existed till now. Though Christianity has been the dominant moral values that have formed our laws it never sought to take away the right of an individual to a point of view on an alternate philosophy. We have a new ideology that cannot co-exist in a democracy that threatens all who will not submit to its shari'ah laws. They use the criminal element to disturb our moral tolerance, and dislodge a population to forge their ghettos within a suburb. No other religion uses the criminal element to threaten a local society with violence.

Kay
I checked that blog out.. your link. Dear, there isn't really 130 posters.. there is about that number of 'posts' but from what I can see they are all from about 5 people :) (now I'm one of them)

Strayan.

Please stop confusing the issue by attempting to draggggg it into some racial superiority thing which justifies your own position. REFER PHILO's post

ALCHEMIST
There is something very dark in your posts, so much distortion, or selection and improper emphasis, imbalance, and lack of serious scrutiny. Can you respond to my questions about what you observed in Sarawak which the 'evil missionaries' were doing ? I know there are some very whacky cults at work, including "The True Jesus" extremists, who went into a buddhist temple and smashed some idols.. but they were given a 'bye bye' by the government and rightly so.

Can we try... tryyyy.. to see the actual issues here ?

Let me repeat..

"Social Cohesian"
"Cultural compatability"
"Political Stability"

When it comes to Islamic would be immigrants, it is a 'yes/no' answer to each along with reasons for the choice.

Hi Philo and David B,

Yeh, xtians haven't realy hasseled the Aussies to much, I mean we have abortions pretty freely and are fine to cruise along the main streets in our F**CK jesus t-shirts. Infact its quiet normal to do so with out any fear of attack or reprisal, to wear a F**K allah t-shirt hmmm well anyone who tries to tell me that would peacefully accepted needs their head read.

Personally im an hardcore atheist,I also have green hair,am a ranting raving vego animal righter and a feindish bdsm head. I am gratefuly safe to be so in a xtian constucted legal system, which will protect and promote my right to be as such.

here is a survey from Indoneasia last year, its a huge population, highy Islamic these days, http://www.infid.be/radical_survey.htm#Intolerance%20Is%20Still%20High
this shows not many support total all out terrorism, but many DO support shaira law (legislating the Ideals of the Koran,)
this is really worth a read.

Cheer

My God meredith.. are u all those things ? :)

You funny girl.. "The Xtians haven't hassled the Aussies much".. grrrrr

I thought most Aussies (nominally at least) were Christians...

But your :
Vegen (frownsss....)
Atheist (Sends you off to the Gulag :)
Raving BDSM freak ? (hmmm )
Animal rights ist ? (now that's a bit dodgy)
-all the above I can handle.. but not the GREEEEN hair ? aaaargh...

Do you realize the turmoil you have put me in ? :) each of those issues above are all my 'pet subjects' which I delight in debating about, but to do so here would be a bit off da topic kinda...

I better not take you to Borneo, or show the pics of the wild pig being sliced and diced which was our munchies for about a week after drying,smoking and salting the sucker..

Mer.. vegetarianism just don't work where u live or die by the amount of protein you can scrounge from the jungle. But.. not now :)

But to respond to your point (an important one) about the treatment by Christians towards 'other's who may wear offensive T-Shirts etc.

It illustrates a very important point about the Faith. "We believe in Gods judgement, and insulting God or Christ harms no one except the person mouthing off" It might hurt our feelings, or sadden us, but we will still see it as coming from ignorance and unbelief, not as a personal attack. Till such a person draws their dying last breath, they have the opportunity of Grace and forgiveness.

But not after that. Its then that the 'wages' of sin are paid in full.

Keep up the energetic posts, at least we have common ground in protecting the freedoms we cherish. (even if your freedoms are a bit whacky to me :))

Hey David,

heeh yeh thats the thing tho isn't it, religion and law are seperate in the west, if this hadnt happened i would have been burnt as a witch, sadly still though for islam i still would be treated in some such manner, have you ever googled stonings in france...

secular and non secular are like oil and water ...... one will rise to the top.....

Debate is importent, its civil and sane... it'd be fun :P

Meredith we aren't defending Islam or the acts of its adherents, we are attacking the unfair, extreme and nonsensical approach that is being advocated by Stone and others. It is only logical to refuse immigrants that are incompatible with our society and to deal with local sources of extremism, but the extent of these is greatly overstated. Radicals are a tiny fraction of Muslims and Muslims in general aren't in any position to destroy our society or our values, and given the opportunity to assimilate (clearly someone at OLO wrote the title for this article) they are the ones whose values and culture would undergo significant change.

Yeah most come from socially backwards regions, and Christianity is the lesser of two evils here, but the solution to such intolerance and radicalism is not for our country to endorse the very same. (If we are going to adopt a social values test, then it must be in an manner that is carefully adapted and administered on an individual level.) The majority of Muslims don't want the end of Western civilisation and the remaining minority aren't going to get anywhere with their desires; some will become more liberal just by being present in our culture and any remaining conservative over-representation will pass in time.

As socially conservative as Islam is, it is not proper to link a few horrific attacks with the entire Muslim community (as some here have), when it can be attributed to a small & radical minority, low socio-economic status or permutations on normal jackassery. There are plenty of places in the West where Xians would react harshly against your t-shirt, or even just your hair. And it would actually be our cultural values, not the legal system that protects you, since blasphemy, abortion and S&M are unfortunately still technically illegal in most of Australia. The vegan/animal rights stuff is more of a sub thing, but there are some evident domme traits so I'd guess you're a switch

We have to present a culture and society into which individuals wish to assimilate; at present we are clearly failing. People come here for a variety of reasons and do not necessarily come here to be like us; why should they.
We have a lot to offer and I dont begrudge them trying to get a bit of it themselves. They clearly have a lot to offer in return and we certainyl snap up most of what they have to offer. To socially engineer some artificial mimickry of what we think is good simply homogenises us down to some bland kind of sameness.
Wave after wave of immigrants have come here; some have been inculcated with our values and take on life - but enclaves of cultural and religious differences abound and we are the richer for that fact.
The ghetto mentality that characterised immigrant communities in past has slowly been eroded with time leaving us with a mix of communities that interacts with great success. Most of the early ghettoes resulted form our inability to accept the different; over time we have grown as haas the migrant population. Any moves to some how forceably assimilate or slectively choose propective migrants on the basis of a tendencyt to assimialte more readily thatn some would be a retrograde step.

The assimilation of other cultures into Australia is not the problem, they enhance our way of life. But, the assimilation of religious cultures is where the problem lies.

Any sane person would accept the great advantages that we have received from the different cultures we have, but religious culture is another thing and the examples that religious culture presents us, is of no benefit to becoming a true multicultural country.

It just that we can't and shouldn't become a religious multicultural country, because history shows us that it doesn't work. One religious culture, normally the introduced ones, infiltrate, terrorises then takes over.

Ask the indigenous peoples around the world, how their cultures have faired after the invasion of religious cultures.

BD, “There is something very dark in your posts, so much distortion, or selection and improper emphasis, imbalance, and lack of serious scrutiny.” Looking in a mirror again eh.

Could it be that you cannot understand someone that knows your religion and has experienced it at high family levels, researched, studied, and been part of the religions theocracy, yet reject it as an evil incarnate.

Write an article on the benefits that religion has brought to the peoples of the world and I will answer you regarding Sarawak and just about anywhere else in this world, from a historical, anthropological and psychological aspect, but not in this thread.

But it wouldn't make any difference to what anyone said to you our anyone that is a slave of religion, you are all to frightened to accept that you may be wrong. Convince me, and you can convince the world.

After all, I was involved in many multi denomination discussions at various locations and private chapels around Kew in Victoria, and all enjoyed our interlineal text debates and ideas, during the 70's

Hey sneekeeepete, you sound like one of those idiots campaigning for a 'eurasian type' society. Paul Keating and Bill Hayden dregs. I reject everything you say in your post. Behind this embrace of multiculturalism is an ambition to racially transform the country - one of those 'white people are oppressors and therefore should be eliminated' wankathons!

So Davo, you reject the fact wave after wave of immigrant has come here, and some have assimilated and and some have not and some have been integrated a lot and some hardly at all - or is it the bit that we are the better for all of that you dont like? I reckon I know the answer to that one.
I have no desire to racially transform the society - but it may well happen over time. So what? Unless we outlaw interracial marriages and ban migration totally I reckon my great grandchildren will look a little less like than if we dont. Again. So what?. I think Hitler tried that one on and look where that got him!

This terrorism thing has got out of hand. And not in the way you think - in the scheme of things and from an historical perspective the events of the last decade amount to not much: the problem we face is that it seems us white bread guys are now the targets. We're not really used to it. We can wear all manner of bad things happening to any other race but bring the trouble home and we go to water.
I guess there are some that will live and die for a good cup of tea ( white no doubt) and a vegemite sandwich. As for me I like a more varied diet. So tolerance and engagement are the way forward for this little black duck.
I'd love to chat more but with all of my wives at work its up to me to prepare the evening meal; a curry sounds nice, or maybe some chinese - japanese maybe ( I do a mean nori roll), or I just might get some take away turkish food - how lucky am I!

The 2001 Census reveals that 23.1 per cent of the population were born overseas. Of those born overseas, 33.1 per cent were born in North-West Europe (mainly the United Kingdom and Ireland), 18.9 per cent in Southern and Eastern Europe and 12.1 per cent in South-East Asia. In terms of countries, the highest proportion of overseas born came from the United Kingdom (25.4 per cent of the overseas born), New Zealand (8.7 per cent) and Italy (5.4 percent).
http://www.immi.gov.au/facts/15population.htm

Hey sneakey, why don't you just move to asia? There, you can be as much of a culture vulture as you like without trying to force your ingrate ideas onto the rest of us.

Would you like me to give you a one way airfare to the country of your choice?

meredith,
Are you suggesting Indonesia's Muslims do not support terrorism? I am afraid you are totally ill informed about Indonesia. Try Aech, Ambon, Timor, Bali, West Papua for starters, over 25,000 murdered in the name of Allah.

Quote, "Here is a survey from Indoneasia last year, its a huge population, highy Islamic these days, http://www.infid.be/radical_survey.htm#Intolerance%20Is%20Still%20High
this shows not many support total all out terrorism."

Post of atricle: Survey shows significant support for radical Islam in Indonesia ... the implementation of strict Islamic law, with nearly 60 percent saying they want adulterers to be whipped and 40 percent backing cutting off a thief's hand.

The survey ...found 16 percent of people polled refused to condemn terror attacks by the al-Qaida linked regional terror group Jemaah Islamiyah if they were committed to fight Muslim oppression. Still, 59 percent condemned the attacks, while 25 percent said they had no opinion.

"It is a worrying phenomenon," said Ulil Abdala, the institute's head. "There is a strong indication that radical Islam is gaining ground. It's definitely something that moderate Indonesian Muslims must take note."

He added many uneducated Indonesians may not have access to information about the terror attacks that have hit the country in recent years or their only sources of information are militant Islamic groups.

Since 2002, Indonesia has suffered three major bombings blamed on Jemaah Islamiyah that have killed 224 people.

The survey, which was carried out for the first time earlier this month, showed many Indonesians support the establishment of laws based on the Muslim holy book Quran.

Fifty-nine percent of people polled backed whipping adulterers and 40 percent said thieves should have their hands hacked off. Meanwhile, 39 percent said they support polygamy for men and 40 percent oppose a women becoming president.

Many Indonesian Muslims also expressed intolerant attitudes toward Christians, with 50 percent saying they oppose churches in Muslim-majority are

Did anyone see Media Watch this evening? It's online at http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1442946.htm

It's a horrible example of how the media continues to inflame the anti-muslim zenophopia that is present in our world today. A young muslim was misquoted as saying "We will never integrate." What he continued to say was not aired, because it would not raise the ratings that the 7 Network want from their ignorant viewers. He did go on to say ... to the extent of other citizens because of our religion. (or words to that effect). My wife and I are fair-minded people and we think these three young muslim men, leaders in their community, deserve a better treatment than this.

If you want muslim to assimilate then break down the barriers, that are very real.

PLEASE send complaint emails to Today Tonight via their wesite at http://seven.com.au/todaytonight/contact_feedback

Cheers
Andrew

hi Philo, Duec

60% for sharia to me seems as much of a worry as terrorism, but yeh 16% in a country that size supporting terrorism is dam high hey and i know this. I mentioned the huge population. So apoligies if i mislead you there Philo. That survey terrifies me.. its good to read re sharia as it shows blantely what sharia law is, then we move on to acknowlage that islam has not seperated its self from law yet as the west did with xtianity.
i care about sharia, as i am fairly powerless agaisnt terrorism. sharia and islams disciminatry attutide to Australians i can lobby against.

Europe and Canada are 25 years ahead of us and are desperate now in attempts to roll back the PC and MC as sharia legislates with the fast growing islamic population...

i said somewhere earlier today secular adn non secular are liek oil n water.... which one will rise to the top.

to sneaaky peter,
you said:
"the problem we face is that it seems us white bread guys are now the targets. We're not really used to it. We can wear all manner of bad things happening to any other race but bring the trouble home and we go to water.
I guess there are some that will live and die for a good cup of tea ( white no doubt) and a vegemite sandwich."

true

my great uncle was one who died for it in ww2 and my grandfather (his brother) ws shot to smithereens. so yeh thats very true,some would die for it. i dont want to get used to it either.

Andrewc

Watched media watch too. Tks for the link. Will place my protest.

BTW I live in Coburg - suburb of melbourne, big Islam popn. Due to my lifestyle I am out and about at all hours, sing in a grunge outfit, wear a bit of metal, have tatts. But I have yet to be hassled the way meredith claims she has.

Maybe its about attitude - if yur hostile people sense this you get hostility back.

Would all the Lefties, moderates etcetera posting here... STOP trying to force humanitarian, respectable and well informed ideas down the the throats of fellow Right wing posters in this forum.

They don't need your "censorship" or "critical appraisal" or 'evidence based arguements' flaming their opinions and views of the world around us. As you know they find it difficult to fathom their own lack of intellectual depth and sincerity. Give em a fair go! Thanks.

I think the Australian electorate is even less likely to permit any kind of implementation of Sharia law than it would with respect to Chrstian laws - remembering of course that religious-based laws are specifically proscribed in our Constitution. It seems to me that hysterical pronouncements about Sharia law - particularly when tenuously supported by dubious stats collected in Indonesia rather than in Australia - are more likely to inflame hatred and good old Aussie latent racism than anything some lunatic imam is going to say. After all, most Aussies know a religious nutter when they see one, regardless of the religion in question. Personally, I categorise Mohammed Omran in the same loony basket as Fred Nile.

The really troubling thing for me about the current anti-Muslim hysteria is that it simultaneously authorises and facilitates the open dissemination of extreme ideologies that find fertile ground in some sections of Australian culture and society. It's the Yellow Peril again, except that it's not a paranoia based on overtly racist ideology.

I for one am truly appalled at some of the extremely objectionable comments that are posted here. While the cleverer bigots disguise the inherent racism of their comments by claiming 'cultural' incompatibility rather than racial inferiority, they encourage the knuckle-dragging set to more extreme expressions of racial and religious vilification.

It seems like some people actually want to increase disharmony in our society, rather than finding common ground upon which we can all build. Perhaps we can take some comfort from the likelihood that the noisiest and shrillest voices of discord tend to come from the margins of society, where they probably belong.

AndrewC
thanks for the heads up. I've also added my protect. It's a pity some journalists have jumped on the zenophobic bandwagon. I'm happy to have a difference of opinion but I at least want the full facts and truth - not just the 'spin' we get in this modern age.

All this fuss and palaver about what is really an imaginary problem! Poor old John Stone using dodgy stats and fulminating about a world long gone.
The most interesting statistic I have heard is that since 1950 we've lost something like 350,000 Australians in car accidents and 1000 (yes, 1000) Australians in all wars and terrorist acts (Korea, Vietnam, Timor, The Gulf 1 and 2, and Bali). If we really want to protect Australian lives we should be banning cars not Muslim immigrants.
Britain has been subject to terrorism for a very long time. Until recently, perpetrated mostly by Irish Catholics, though I never heard anyone demand Irish immigration be stopped at the time. Like most white people who commit crimes they were seen as individual bad guys, not representative of all Irish Catholics. its only when people we perceive as alien (non-white or non-Christian) commit crimes that we make outrageous generalistaions, it seems.
People are just people, some are good, some not so good, no matter where they come from. Muslims who come here have much more to fear from us than we have from them. There are so few of them, in a couple of generations they are likely to be as well integrated as the displaced persons from Europe who came after WW2 and the Italians and Greeks who arrived in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Perhaps that is why a few of their Imams (like a few of our Imams - silly old John Stone being one) froth at the mouth so, they know their way of life is going out backwards. Why don't we argue about a problem that really exists, like some of the racist hatred expressed by some posters on this thread. Now those guys are really scarey.

Thanks davo: look up the meaning of ingrate.

I am not forcing my ideas down any one's throat. I am ah, er, umm, ... expressing an opinion! thats it; expressing an opinion.

There's no need for me to go to Asia I have everything I want right here. For as long as it lasts.

I am taking a leaf out of Raineirs post elsewhere who swore off the type of personal invectice I have engaged in ; highly innapropriate of me I agree. But there are times when my attention is drawn to the tedious and I cant hep myslef.

But I will do it no more.

Hey I would like to assess Ranier's last post for everyone, based on how it contributes to this discussion.

Points:
- Left wing people have humanitarian, respectable and well informed opinions, while Right Wing people are not.
- Left Wing people make arguements based on logic, evidence and well considered thought.
- Right Wing people lack intellectual depth and sincerity.
- Right Wing people are arrogant.

Translation:
- Ranier is prejudiced against anyone he puts in this "Right Wing" box and will subsequently discriminate against them.
- Ranier believes that because his attitudes are Left Wing (Left wing is just whatever he's thinking at the time), they are "well informed", while any others "lack intellectual depth and sincerity".

Summary:
- Ranier debates with people by:
a) Stereotyping them into boxes (right, left, chicken wing)
b) Posting emotive abuse with negative connotations.
c) Hoping that by throwing mud and launching character assasinations, people will see his point. Note that this completely breaks the ideal on the previous post about using evidence based arguements.
- In Ranier's world this is alright. His opinions (oops i mean Left Wing thinking) are respectable while all the Right wing people (i.e. anyone who disagrees with him) lack intellectual depth.

Anyone who understands the introduction of communism into USSR will know that only 5%, yes 5%, of the population were members of the Communist Party when it fell to Communism. It was just that they had control of the vital positions of power within USSR. It does not need 51% of people holding an ideology to capture a Nation and subject it under control.

Islam will not assimilate with a bunch of drunkard, drug affected, sexually debauched, adulterers as they see as the norm in Australian society. They prefer to see it destroyed because it is an inferior culture and an affront to Allah. I can tell you it is also an affront to me being Christian. But such behaviour is the person's choice and they for such are answerable. True Islamist will never accept such degrading lifestyles.

Here are at least five ways to capture a nation:
1. Kill, capture and subdue its inhabitants
2. Breed to overpopulate
3. Capture its positions of power: government, media, education etc
4. Buy or control all its wealth
5. Indoctrinate its people

So interesting to read this forum.

As I have said previously, I think we should halt muslim immigration until the terrorism ceases. Especially if John Howard wishes us to remain in Iraq.

The ones who are here already should be made to feel welcome and the government should continue to work with their communities against potentially violent fundamentalism.

I do have a concern about the rise of Islamic schools which prevent muslim Australians mixing with non muslim Australians. How can these kids ever feel part of the community when they are being islolated in the educational setting

Thank you philo, it is nice of your to explain your closeness to the opinions of other religions, in you hatred of Australia's way of life. ”Islam will not assimilate with a bunch of drunkard, drug affected, sexually debauched, adulterers as they see as the norm in Australian society. They prefer to see it destroyed because it is an inferior culture and an affront to Allah. I can tell you it is also an affront to me being Christian”.

Are you in the right country, Saudi Arabia may suit you better, or Israel or your much loved USA, the hub of the current christian debauchery and stupidity. We don't want verbal terrorists like you here who refuse to assimilate with our enjoyable way of life.

“Here are at least five ways to capture a nation:
1. Kill, capture and subdue its inhabitants
2. Breed to overpopulate
3. Capture its positions of power: government, media, education etc
4. Buy or control all its wealth
5. Indoctrinate its people”

A perfect example of the christian approach to the indigenous peoples throughout the word and how Christian USA and Britain have approached their evangelistic invasions through out the ages.

You forgot 6. If that don't work, destroy them in the name of god

A great explanation of the agenda of the Christian US and relgion around the world today

Refreshing to see you being so truthful for once, something so uncommon within the religious communities of the world. Thats why religion will never assimilate with real people, you will combine to condemn the non religious, but can't provide an acceptable historical or current example for others to follow, just vilify us, and then try to use us as your cannon fodder to uphold you unsustainable position. If combinng doesn't work, the religious then turn against each other, a really intellegent and enlightened approach

Your god must be very pleased with the image you project of his chosen ones. It also appears that your god is also unwilling to assimilate with the peoples of the world, as you profess to speak in his name

Xenophobia doesn't start with a "z"

Thanks Leigh,
I am either becoming afraid of the word, or it's because of Microsoft Americanisms. Or it was too late at night. Zzzzz...
:)
Andrew

The alchemist,
So the atheists and non-religious are the only real people according to the alchemist, and of course he is well adjusted to the many people in the world including the 87% of the worlds population who claim to identify with a religion. Sorry mate, you are outnumbered.

Most of the social and health problems in Australia are linked to drugs, alcohol, promiscuous sexuality and breakdown in family life.

Each weekend I provide a meeting place, resourse, food and counsell for youth hanging out on the street, and these kids relate very well to what I do for them. Kids experementing with drugs and sex and antisocial mischief. Yes my God relates very well to sinners he gave his life for them. So where you at in relating to kids who might be going off the rails?

Quote The Alchemist, "Thats why religion will never assimilate with real people, you will combine to condemn the non religious, but can't provide an acceptable historical or current example for others to follow, just vilify us, and then try to use us as your cannon fodder to uphold you unsustainable position. If combinng doesn't work, the religious then turn against each other, a really intellegent and enlightened approach....It also appears that your god is also unwilling to assimilate with the peoples of the world, as you profess to speak in his name.

Yesterday ,when John Howard had his meeting with the Islamic Faith,there were 52 different interest groups all with different interpretations of the Koran.Now only the moderates were allowed to attend.

How can we find mutual ground in such a diverse and confused belief system?They agree on one thing,that their rule of god over rides all man's laws.

It is a recipe for anarchy,hate and violence.The Mulsims on past track records have kept chipping away with this formula for anarchy and that is why even with all the wealth and oil in the world,their mainstream populace is ignorant,hateful and subjugated.

Alch,

when i was a kid the salvos helped me with food n shelter, im an athiest today, but they were okay hey

I agree with John Stone on all the points he made. It is ridiculous to simply maintain this facade that ideologically different people can and should live together in peace and harmony with a few rare exceptions. History speaks for itself; in 2000 years of recorded history there has been exactly two weeks of peace!
Before I am derided as 'intolerant' and 'racist', just answer a very simple multiple choice answer question. Were those responsible for the the Twin Towers and Bali (a) blonde Norwegian tourists (b) Members of the Girl Guides, (c) Stormtroopers of the Salvation Army or (d) Muslims?
Think about it you overeducated birdbrains . . .

yaaaaaaay codyyyyy thats dam cool

Well, I've been studying this sort of stuff so...

1)In relation to assimilation, I consider someone an Australian citizen if they obey our laws and pay our taxes. Anything else is up to them, including their religion and culture. No one should be forced to drink beer and play rugby, not that there is anything wrong with beer or rugby. Rugby is a fine sport.
2)It is true that Islam has some very severe problems, and some things in the Koran aren't very tolerant or peaceful. But remember, the Christian bible (particularly the old testament) also had some very nasty things in it. And there IS a phrase in the Bible (new testament) which says that women should obey men otherwise men can beat them. It's towards the back, but it's there. But we've learned to ignore it! You see, Christianity has been modified and modernized. I have no problems with Islam, but they have to go down the same pathway that Christianity did. After all, it was written over 1000 years ago. Times have changed, both for Christianity and Islam. Religion must adapt.

I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Unconquered Sun

Meredith, please don't get me wrong, I have nothing but the greatest respect for the the work and some of the people of the salvation army and many other people of religion. I agree that christianity has come a long way, and Islam has to become more evolved to become acceptable for us in this country. After all the christian church has finally thrown of most of its religious clothing in public. But they still go against the bible, and worship graven images (money and power)and people of the flesh

But the relgious must understand the amount of damage they have done and are stil doing to the world with very little benefit except for their selfrighteous ego's.

As one from a very deep religious background, I enjoy watching the relgious squim, they have nothing but fallacy to back them up. Their history and the effects they have had on the peoples of the world, is irrefutable and there for all to see.

So giggle along with me, it is a pity that more muslims dodn't get involved so the we could have a real go at each other and really see where they stand. But I can tell you, islam is very vunerable to reality and thats whay they want to destroy it. At least the christians realise that their evangelism is not acceptable to the majority of intelegent people. Thats why their churches are emptying and their influence diminishing, except for the radical ones.

However my choice would always be, to be in a christian secular country rather than an islamic country of any sort.

Go to dateline to read transcript Geroge Negus' interview with one of the muslims who didn't get invited to the summit:

http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php?page=archive&artmon=08&fyear=2005#

Those posters who keep carrying on about the threat Muslims are to Australian culture need to recognise and accept that Australia is a multi cultural, multi faith, multi coloured, multi racial society and is all the better for being so. All the anti-Muslim (or is it pro-Christian) rhetoric is not going to change that reality. There is no possibilty of us ever being a white, Christian society no matter how much some people would like that.
Judge people as individuals for what they say and do, but don't condemn a whole class of people for the actions of a few. We know that many Catholic priests have sexually abused children but I don't hear condemnation of all priests, let alone all Catholics as a consequence. Why condemn all Muslims for the behaviour of a very small minority. Get over the bigotry!

As a case study of the kinds of ideas washing around Australia now, this has been a fascinating if sometimes distressing correspondence (nearly 90 items now – a record?), sparked off by John Stone’s essay.

I share with OLO readers an email response I got recently to something I wrote on Crikey about David Hicks’ right to a fair trial in a civilian court, as an example of the demons we risk letting out of Pandora’s box when we “intellectuals” stoke up the fires of racial-sectarian hatred in our anxious society:

“another dogooder like burnstine,margo,abc,sbs you pests are just dieng to distroy the Australian way of life all you people are ashamed on who you are your dieing for these dark age muslims to suck the Australian taxpayers dry and out breed the country with the 4 wifes and 10 kids to each one of them why don't you open the pages of that filthy quran and find out what the islamic agenda is for infedels like you oh and muslims despise homos like you burnside and all your other fags they behead scum like you people after your use by date in finshed your refugees will be the first to teach you insecure socialists a good leason about their dark age cult hey buddy don't lose your head will bring your end not the Australian society that you fear oh i bet you don't have any kids to worry about their future”.

Of course this person has every right to express his/her views. As did George Negus’ interviewee Wassim Doureihi– thanks, Minuet. I thought Wassim reassuringly clear and moderate. But I don’t agree that there are sharply demarcated Western and Islamic worlds – we have to share one world in peace, significant minorities live on both sides of the (by now very blurred) sectarian divide, and important religious and cultural divisions exist within each ‘”world”. But I respect how Wassim’s group feels about Western governments’ political/military interference in Muslim countries. I don’t see that non-Muslim Australians have anything to fear from Wassim’s ideas, while his group respects Australia’s laws.

Rossco is right: "Judge people as individuals for what they say and do, but don't condemn a whole class of people for the actions of a few. We know that many Catholic priests have sexually abused children but I don't hear condemnation of all priests, let alone all Catholics as a consequence. Why condemn all Muslims for the behavior of a very small minority. ”

Except I would add that you must judge people where they are in control, not where they are a minority. That is exactly why Islam must be condemned. Wherever Muslims dominate, they discriminate and oppress other religions, not to mention women, gays, Jews, etc... Some Muslim countries discriminate more, some less, but in none do all people and religions have the same rights and freedoms.

Oh yes, there is also the small matter that Muslims cannot and will not condemn torture and murder, at least when it is their prophet Mohammud that did it (by their own accounts, many times!).

Would anybody here care to tell me why I should respect a group of people that cannot condemn a man who was a slaver and who also brutally tortured people? Not only will they not condemn him, but they consider him to be a model of virtue and goodness - a shinning example to follow. This is not a “very small minority” but the vast majority – almost all, in fact – of Muslims. At least the Catholic Church says its sorry and is paying dearly, not that it doesn’t richly deserve condemnation and scorn.

So this is why I condemn Muslims. This is why I speak out. I don’t know about the rest of people here, but slavery, murder, torture and sex with children is totally unacceptable. Anybody who does these things is scum. Anybody who justifies these types of actions is also scum, and anybody who is informed about these acts but refuses to acknowledge and denounce them cannot be trusted and therefore must also be condemned.

Would anybody care to tell me why this is not a reasonable attitude?

John Aka Kactu

Well John, I understand what you're saying and it is true that in many muslim countries, human rights (especially women's rights) are lacking.
Yes, some of the things you mention happen quite a bit in places such as Pakistan or, still, Afghanistan (the government can't really control the warlords). But remember, the Christian Bible (Old Testament) also approves of slavery and the stoning of people who committed adultary. It also has nothing against marriages with people as young as 14. In fact, it has recently been shown that in many Amish communities, child abuse and underage sex are rampant even among family members. However, Christianity has been modified, moderated and modenized, something which is possible in a secular society, but not possible in a religious society. The trouble is not with Islam, but with the governments of these countries, and the lack of will to change. However, in a society such as ours, which is secular, I do believe that the Majority of Muslim people can make a very good and proper contribution to our society. You might call it wishful thinking, but remember, many "holy" christian people used to say that anyone who wasn't blue eyed, blond haired, and white skinned was evil, and in America, church leaders used to say that the bible forbid interracial marriages and condoned lynchings of black people. And this was about 40 years ago! It's not that Islam is bad, the problem is people. People everyone, in any country, can be evil, and they usually are.

Oh, and a follow up. In the good ole, USA most people (white, god fearing christians) still approved of racist policies and the lynchings of black people. They were a majority. The only reason why the civil rights bill was passed was because the President of America took a stand on it.

I understand that you think Muslim countries are backwards John, and in many, many ways they are.

But we weren't that different not too long ago. Human beings are the same people we were over 1000 to 2000 years ago. We haven't change, our societies have evolved. Sadly, that hasn't happened in many muslim countries, and I'll admit that many remain dreadfully backward and there is absolutely no excuse for it.

But give them a chance. Not to long ago, Japan was a bit insane as well, but now they are one of the worlds most developed, humane societies. Everyone needs a chance you know.

Its a free country! You do have the right to think what ever you want. There is nothing wrong with judging as you see fit.

UNCONQUERED SUN

can we look together at your last post where you mentioned the Old Testament, young marriage (14).. slavery and stoning. Then, you made a ‘great leap forward’ bypassing the New Testament altogether.

The issues you raise in your first sentence are not ‘Christianity’ its the patriarchal Israelite culture, which occurred in the midst of a ‘rule or be ruled/kill or be killed’ social environment with the surrounding tribes/races.
In such circumstances, without being subject to some larger ‘Empire’ the types of guidelines described in the OT are entirely reasonable, and were as much about social welfare as anything.
Treatment of captives females, while quite far from how ‘we’, with the benefit of 2000 yrs of New Testament background+Reformation+Renaissance+Enlightenment etc, would feel comfortable, in that day I think the alternatives were quite limited.

On the issue of ‘child marraige’ and slavery, it might be worthwhile looking at this in depth.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html

However, I have a problem with a 50yr old man marrying a 9 yr old girl as Mohamed did, looking at the context it seems to me a purely lust/sex toy thing in his case. (not surprising she was his ‘favorite’ wife ? which in itself is against his own teaching about equal treatment)

On the issue of ‘Islam is not bad’... well :) bearing in mind Qu’ranic finality and allowing of sex with captive slaves ‘for all time’ (Sura23.5-6) I think there is something to worry about.
Coupling this with the stated objectives of the Islamic Council of Vic being

1. To vigilantly maintain and apply the true Islamic doctrines as, contained in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah AS PRACTICED by the Holy Prophet Mohamed (May Allah's Blessings and Mercy be Upon Him) at all times in the carrying out of the objects of this Constitution.

Looking at mohamed's life, and the above...its a worry.

When evaluating ‘white’ (or any) behavior.. no matter what they ‘felt’ was ok. we have a responsibility to compare all behavior with Christ, and his teaching, then we are on safe ground. Can we justify those things from the NT ?

My name is Lukey. I'm new to this forum.
BOAZ_David, I share your concerns about exploitation of children. Can anyone enlighten me as to how practicing Muslims generally are aware of this behaviour by Mohamed? Is it seen as acceptable?

I do not care if someone is Muslim, Catholic, Buddhist, Hindu or Wican.

I do not care that someone was, like me, born overseas or born here.

I do believe, however, that "assimilation" is the only moral outcome of social evolution.

Multi-culturalism is a "transition process" which enables us all to retain and share the "best" of our countries of origin.

"Assimilation" is the process which "generationally" follows "multiculturalism", to meld us all into "Australians", where regardless of the spelling of our name, or historic religous preference or cultural origins, we can all stand equal as Australians.

So why do I feel "Assimilation" is the only reasonable, rational and moral outcome?

Well for this one simple reason -

The alternative to "Assimilation" is "Segregation".

Dr Martin Luther King gave his life in the pursuit of "integration" (Assimilation is a simile for integration).

I for one will never support anything which promotes or entrenches the evils of segregation

Col, I like your most recent post. The tricky bit seems to be finding a workable means of defining what level of assimilation is required.

I started trying to write a list and most items seemed just as relevant to people born here as those who have come here from oversea's. Language seemed to be the only item which really applies to the foreign born more than the locally born (I have not tried to address the original inhabitants language issue).

- Sufficient skill in the predominant language that language is never an excuse for failing to meet legal obligations (understanding no fishing signs etc) or to stop you supporting yourself.

The broader social obligations - what I would "like" to be the core for all people living in this land.
- Obey the law of the land
- Mix outside your own social/cultural/religious grouping. Probably unenforcable but if we don't want segregation something we need.
- Respect other peoples right to choose differently to you even if it does not suit your world view or if it makes if difficult for you to follow your religion (if you have a lust problem because of how someone dresses that's your problem not his or hers).
- If the culture here is really distasteful to you move somewhere more to your taste. This applies regardless of where you were born.
- Take reasonable steps to ensure that your exercise of freedom does not unfairly limit someone elses freedom (again hard to enforce). Personally I don't want church bells or calls to prayer ringing out to loudly in my neighbourhood.

Maybe there are some other core things that could go there (or maybe the list could be shrunk).

Cheers
R0bert

The best example of assimilation that I have come across came recently from my chinese greengrocer. He told me that when he came to Australia ten years ago, he was really shocked to find that locals considered the government to be the enemy of the people, but as the years went by he realised they were right!

Your right, the government will never assimilate with the people, should we ask them to leave first.

We can safely sat that most Muslims will assimilate into the Australian way of life, but not into its bad cultural habbits. The problem arises when Muslims wish to introduce Islam as a religious political and legal system. It by its very nature and structure is exclusive of all religions and personal democratic freedoms. They cannot coexist. Most Muslims dream of an Islamic State. The Taliban almost achieved this ideal, before America bagan its war on terror. They want a State based upon their understanding of an absolute moral lifestyle. It is opressive to ordinary people that is why we had so many refugees fleeing Afganistan.

The Jewish traditions and Talmud that influenced much of Islam's Shari'ah laws we can recognise in Jesus outrage at the religious oppression of the common people and his berating of these religious zealots. I speaking as a follower of Christ Jesus have to reflect the attutudes he espoused: Religious law is too oppressive and destructive of good relationships. Hence his emphasis on forgiveness and love as the basis of society.

ROB
those points you raised should be scrutinized in relation to Islamic law to see how acheivable they are in that light.

I quite agree myself with your points, but lets look

1/ Obey the law of the land: but my religion requires me to pray in a certain pysical manner, (facing mecca, prostrated) 5 times a day, can I do this in my job ? My job requires me to be clean shaven (Sikh's) but my religion says I must have a beard (Islams also)
2/ Mix outside your own group.. "Islam:food laws, haram and halal. sorry..aint gonna happen.. 'you' and your food are unclean mate :)

3/ Respect Peoples right to choose differently: Err.. if ur Muslim ad wish to choose Christianity of 'no' faith.... its apostacy.

4/ On Church bells, or Calls to prayer.. I agree.. I would not want either myself. But if the community I moved into already practiced one or the other, it's a bit hard to object.

PLERDSUS...High 5 4 u :)

ALCHEMIST... have u suddenly got religion ? :) where is your usual vitriol and poison pen ?
Tell us more MORE...about your 'deep religious' involvment..... might help us understand u more. I'm still worried about you...

PHILO.. on the Talmud=>Sharia (and Jesus reaction to the stiff starchy tradition) .. well said mate :)

COL.. agreed on all points

LUKEY generally the Muslim view is to rationalize and justify it with "But things were different then" + "All things from God are good"
go onto MIRC, server=dalnet, /join #islam and chat with some about it.

Dear Unconquered Sun
you make some valid points:

"I understand that you think Muslim countries are backwards John, and in many, many ways they are. But we weren't that different not too long ago. Human beings are the same people we were over 1000 to 2000 years ago. We haven't change, our societies have evolved......give them a chance...."etc

This is exactly why I am terrified of the growing muslim population in Australia. It's like letting in a whole bunch of rednecks from the south of USA and letting them pray against rights for black people. Okay, a bit of an exageration, but see my point. Womens equality is only very recent, the right to an abortion is only recent, voting rights to both women and aborgines is recent compared with 1000s of years of religious monarchies.

So that is why I am scared.

It's already bad enough as a woman to have christian fundemantalist groups wanting to stop my right to have a medically safe abortion and make me feel guilty about it instead of putting their energy into what I believe more pending issues like pedophilia inside the church, world poverty etc, but then to have to deal with another group who make me feel guilty and disrespected because I'm not covering my hair, my belly button is showing and I talk to men who I'm not married to, the fact that their religion is the fastest growing religion in the world, that there are some incredibly smart terrorists causing bloodshed in every corner of the world......I'm sorry but I'm really scared.

I wish I could feel more comfortable. I love all cultures, religions, nationalities, but when it comes to a growing population of muslims in Australia is concerned, I'm scared out of my wits. It's not racisim, it's not fascism, it's fear. Fear of losing what I have already and I'm so lucky to have. My right as a woman to vote, to be treated as an equal, etc, stands on a fragile podium. It is not cemented in and supported by centuries of experience and consolidation.

minuet

You are needed at another thread. If you fear that your rights as a woman are threatened by Islam, try reading the posts from some very white, very non islamic men on the following thread
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=2466
the backlash against feminism. These are comments from men who would have you believe that your rights to vote, to have safe abortions, to seek political office, to be paid as an equal are in fact a plot by feminists to take over the world.

Whereever there is a perceived threat there are those who will claim that ALL Muslims or ALL feminists are plotting the demise of the western world as we know it. Please don't let the scaremongers win. Not all muslims believe in the subjugation of women. But some men do and they can be atheist, buddhist, hindu, jew, muslim or christian. Muslim women are vital intelligent women too - they are entitled to where the hijab if they want even if you and I find it hard to understand why they would cover their heads. But not all muslim women do wear the hijab - it is very much a matter of choice. Nor do they wish to be treated as second class citizens
. So take heart in the fact that Muslim women have similar values to you and I. And that not ALL muslim are extremists - to state a very cliched comment they are human beings too.

Well said minuet, you have a right and a reason to be scared. Unconquered sun, Japan as a humanitarian society, go there and you will see how humane they really are as a culture.

BD, the poison pen of god, nah you can keep it, no use to me. You and your ilk use it very well.

The politically correct will always say give them a go, even as those they support stick the knife in or blow you up, mainly because the PC's are cowards and change sides as it suits.

There is a number of ways to assimilate religious people into our country. Let them believe what they want, as long as it is not against our lifestyle. But restrict that belief and practise to their place of worship and the home, not in public. If they don't accept that, then get rid of them. Australia may be the last place to make a stand against the religious evil that is encompassing the world.

If we don't stand up for what we have achieved over the last 50 years, then we deserve to suffer. Our right wing religious politicians are making sure that we go down the drain, by their support of religious fundamentalism and evangelism.

Islam suppresses everyone, just like fundamentalist and evangelist christians would like to do. Islam is currently a hundred years away from being a reasonable religion. Anyone that says otherwise has their head in the sand. Just like with the invasion of christian religions around the world during the last couple of centuries, they have nothing in their minds but to take over and enforce their beliefs in what every way possible.

There is a common thread between all religions, act nice as you slowly wheedle your way into power and influence, then suppress and conquer. So be afraid minuet we all should be. You must understand that it is the PC's of this world that are now in control and they are as much an evil ism as is religion and they can't assimilate either.

To BOAZ_David

Okay, okay
You mention that the New Testament was a great leap forward, and it is true. Although I am not christian, I really can't say that I object to anything in the new testament.
But many christians consider the Old Testament to be part of their bible. This opens up some great contradictions in Christianity. I have heard many chrisitian conservatives say "An eye for an eye" when supporting the death penalty and then quoting from the New Testament when at sermons. So this is an absolute contradiction. One moment, God is a jealous god who rules over his people absolutely, and in another chapter, he proclaims love for all, and tolerance and all that.

Same thing in Islam. One part of the Koran does indeed say to slay all infidels, but another part says "To me, my religion, to you, your religion", and clearly doesn't support forcing people to join.

It seems to me that you are a bit biased. Christianity has some bad things in it's bible too, but you only look at the good parts and choose to ignore the bad parts (and that's why you have adapted to living in a modern society), while Islam has some good parts, but you only look at the bad parts.

All religion has stuff which contradicts the other stuff. This PROVES that it wasn't written by one guy, and was probably written and modified again and again over the centuries by many many people. It's a human construct. The whole thing.

And because it is a human construct, it is subject to change, and so I do believe that Muslim people can become moderate and change and live in our society. And, I've just realized I have ended up agreeing with the case for assimilation. Darn.

Okay, Okay, I've just realized that I have made some contradictions. Forgive me, I'm human, just like the author(s) of all religion texts.
But although I have come out into the open and said that Islam has to change, and yes, I have been caught with my foot in my mouth, I'd also like to say that I still believe in giving Islam a chance. All muslim people have to do, is to obey Australian law, and I believe that most muslim people will agree to that. I still have no problems with my next door neighbour being Muslim, and I do not mind if they immigrate to this country. I have faith that they can adapt, while keeping their religion intact.

Thankyou for your expressions of agreement Robert.

Your suggestions regarding minimum obligations for migration are reasonable and sensible, I would not wish to adjust it in any way.
I really believe one of them is something a lot of people have to wake up and accept – it is the one which is most often ignored. It is, if you don’t like it here and cannot accept the Australian way, leave!
The issue of assimilation is a matter of time – a generational process. I would recall the majority of “Australians” were born or derive from “British” origins. I would ike to point out that the Celts moved west and North when the Angles and then the Saxons moved into England. The Romans came and went (leaving their contribution to the gene pool) and of course the Normans put down roots too. The “United Kingdom” is a nation built on assimilation across the generations, the capacity of Australia to do the same is proven by inherited experience.

David_BOAZ – I guess the “challenge for Muslims” which you illustrate is one which Muslims alone have to face. Assimilation fails when one segment demands the “right of regression” (not sure if "regression" is the right word to use but it sort of “fits”)– hence organisations like the IRA and the Orange Orders (and their Muslim equivalents) take the “intitative” to the detriment of everyone else. Having seen the consequences of the actions of those who resist assimilation, Roberts option, “to leave” becomes even more critical and the action of the current UK government, to “expel” “regressives” even more reasonable

Trinity,
The wearing of the head covering by Muslim women is a sign to other men she is in subjection to her husband. On one occasion when entering a store in Auburn a Malaysan Muslim woman with full head covering was coming out the door so I stept aside to allow her to exit, and our eyes happened to meet, as under Shari'ah law she cried out; "A man! A man! meaning a man has attempted to rape me. In the Western Nations the head covering remains as a political statement to indicate fundamental adherence to the law of Allah. It is not Muslim it has its roots in Arabic culture. They do not see it as optinal, but as essential when mixing socially when males are present. I suggest you might visit the Islamic School at Plumpton and observe the young girls in full head covering.

Quote, "Muslim women are vital intelligent women too - they are entitled to where the hijab if they want even if you and I find it hard to understand why they would cover their heads."
______________________________________
Col,
Quote, "The issue of assimilation is a matter of time – a generational process."

I realise you have high hopes that Muslims will assimilate. The IRA did change but they did not have thousands of scholars devoted to the study of text to retain their culture, laws and world view. Examine what is happening in France, Holland, Canada etc where large numbers of them form ghettos and have their own local laws. The definitions of the religious Immams keeps constant check on any discenting movement from the Qur'anic authority, and adopting Western culture.

The thousands of years of culture behind the zealot Jews at Masada and their antagonistic feelings toward the Romans will give you some similar understanding of their committment while goverened by Western laws. Jesus when encouraged by the leader of the Jewish zealots to join them rebuked him as the Satan [the opponent of God]. They preferred to take their own life by commiting suicide rather than being slaughtered by unclean Roman dogs.

Unconquered Sun

thanx for that interesting response.
Actually, pity we can't enjoy a cuppa and a natter about the relationship between the Old and New Testaments. There isn't really any condtradiction, though the way some people preach, one could think there is.
'Eye for an Eye', believe it or not is a 'limit' rather than about vengence, which would take not just an eye, but probably a leg as well. Justice says "You do the crime.. you do the time. or.. if u steal $20, u repay $20 or you do an equivalent time in the clanger.

Christ showed that the intent of the law (all along) was to foster brotherly love among mankind. He was the fulfillment and enabler in the most perfect sense.

If you can stand a bit of reading.. check out Isaiah Chapter 40 right through to 53, to see how the 'servant' concept is developed. In chapter 53, you will meet the death and resurrection of Christ being alluded to very strongly. "He was wounded for our transgressions"

Those chapters speak about a 'servant' of God, who is sometimes Israel the nation, and other times... someone else.

TRINITY ur right, not 'all' Muslims are extremists, but in community they become strong support 'by default' for the agenda drivers. Can you imagine them marching in the streets in protest at the extremists winning a concession so that all Muslims can have friday off and also at least 3 extra breaks a day during working hours to pray ? I kinda cannot see that happening.

If the radicals DO gain control of the major mosques in Melbourne, (they succeeded apparently by ill means in Preston).. then be afraid... very afraid.

Or even better... give ur heart to the Lord and experience the peace only He can give. :)

cheers

Why are Muslim women allowed to wear that black thing over their heads when they enter a bank - with only their eyes in view - when Aussie bike riders have to remove their helmets?

Simple question.

Bet there is not a simple answer?

Bet Muslim pro-activists will provide me with myriad bull rationalisations for this concrete, unfair, and unequal reality!

Cheers
Kay

David B; you’ve commented before about Muslims wanting to take Fridays off. What’s your take on Jews who won’t work Saturdays or the Jewish holy days scattered throughout out the year (approx 10 days) and leave work early on Fridays in winter months in order to be home before the sun sets.

What about the Jews who like to live close to each other, who won’t share meals with non-Jews because they will only eat Kosher food?

How does this fit in with your idealised Judaeo-Christian world?

I’m ranging through in my mind all the Muslims I know and can’t think of one who won’t work on a Friday. I’m sure there must be some but not in the circles I mix with.

But you are such an expert on Muslims I must of course be wrong

Shoshana...

glad u raised the Jewish issues

and 'of course'..... your not wrong

Well.. to be honest, I think its just as unfair on an employer to want time off for those reasons for Jews as it is for Muslims.

If a Jewish person applied for a job with me, I would make clear the situation just as I would not give 'smoke breaks' apart from the normal appointed times for morning and afternoon tea.

Having said that, many workplaces I know finish quite early on friday anyway..

On the food laws, its a bit sad that food which is only 'ritually' unclean can prevent us having good fellowship don't u think. I know the principle about the 'blood' and we also share that conviction, but kosher is not neccessarily a fufilment of that requirement, I think it goes further than needed. Drinking blood was associated with idolatry in pagan circles. I'll guarantee there is still a little blood in an animal slaughtered in a kocher way also.. even a few drops.

I wish every Jew who will not eat Pork would also have passion for their faith and not just refrain for 'cultural reasons'.

Your Muslim friends may well not seek the time off .. a good thing.
But looking at the goals of the ICV they are clear enough that in time, with more clout, they would (as others are.. Canada) seek more flexibility in this. This issue applies also to Sikhs and beards in the emergency services, and helmet wearing.

If I've rubbed you the wrong way with some of my strongly worded posts, forgive me, I'd rather work together towards better understanding than being adversarial.
I'm quite confrontational deliberately at times.. to get thinking going.

Alchemist,
I don't know if you meant it to be sound this funny, but it had me in a fit of giggles about your comment PCs not being able to assimilate. Have we all gone mad over this topic or what?:

"You must understand that it is the PC's of this world that are now in control and they are as much an evil ism as is religion and they can't assimilate either. "

To all the Trolls, moral-equivalency merchants, obfuscation-artists, leftists, ideologues, nihilists, guessers, wishers, grievance-mongers and Inshallah-fatalists out there festering in cyber-space:
Enough already, with the phoney race-card. ISLAM IS NOT A RACE! It's a (would-be) world-conquering totalitarian ideology disguised as a religion.
Buddhists, Atheists, Christians, Jews, Hindus etc don't have a jihad and global dominance motif running through their core tenets.
If you must comment on this subject, at least have the decency to study Dhimmitude, the Qur'an-Hadith-Sira-fueled hostility towards non-Muslims, the 1350 year old history of jihad ideology and Sharia jurisprudence - the domain of Islamic law, which codifies female inferiority and religious inequality.
Osama bin Laden and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi to Marwan Abu Ubeida have consistently made clear that today’s jihadists are working from mainstream traditions and numerous Qur’anic exhortations, and that by means of these traditions and teachings they are able to gain recruits among Muslims worldwide — as well as to hold the sympathy of others whom they do not recruit. This explains why there has been no widespread, sustained, and sincere Muslim outcry against the jihad terrorist enterprise in general.
The jihad ideology is rooted in the Qur’an and Islamic tradition. The longer we postpone confronting that fact, the worse the problem will grow.
The level of denial of the 800 pound gorilla in the lounge-room never ceases to amaze me.
Don't allow the survival strategies of realpolitik to be traded in for the pipe dreams of pretendpolitik.
There are altogether too many Western liberals around prepared to pay obeisance to such repulsive and authoritarian instincts while wrapping themselves in the mantle of righteousness.
So, all you apologists, deniers, guessers and wishers out there: WAKE UP!

On the subject of the hijab, Trinity was correct when she said that muslim women can choose to wear it or not. I have muslim friends, some who do wear it and some who don't. It is not compulsory in Australia. Can't say I like it very much, but I like my friends and respect their right to wear it - they don't give me a hard time about my nose and belly studs - each to their own.

I would also like to add that my friends who do wear the hijab say that it is about their relationship with god and nothing to do with men that they choose to don the head-dress, personally this just adds to my general disdain for religion in general, but hey, freedom of expression - OK?

Gosh Minuet, didn't think it was so obvious, I was giggling to. But there is always a little truth in humour.

Historically all those that want to conquer, always give the impression that they don't and won't. Sadly those with naive influence, accept those lies.

The wearing of religious clothing in public, is a statement of intent. Religious culture of all kinds, refuse to assimilate. That always makes them a problem. Just about everyone you meet in the world is nice, when it comes to their religion they quickly change, if you differ.

An answer is to not allow any religious expression in public. That won't happen, so we will just have to get ready for the crunch.

We are not immune to the problems of the world, distance is no longer a factor. We are a society that has been disarmed, mentally and physically into believing that it won't be like it is elsewhere for us. That is when reality will hit, square between the eyes.

Kalweb, “Why are Muslim women allowed to wear that black thing over their heads when they enter a bank - with only their eyes in view - when Aussie bike riders have to remove their helmets?”

Answer, the blind stupidity of the politically correct.

Xena, “my friends who do wear the hijab say that it is about their relationship with god and nothing to do with men “.

It is their relationship with their god that is the problem, not them.

As a women, you have no problem. But think about us men and the problem we have trying to understand what they want when they enter a business and there is no women to serve them.

Many men I know, find it very offensive to be ignored, have them turn their back on you, then put down their purchase and walk out because they couldn't be served by a women. Is that sanity, or just arrogant ignorance, designed to force religious culture down our throats. When it comes to their religious expression, all religions look upon those that don't believe with disdain.

The cultural significance of the hijab or a complete covering of the head is found in ancient Arabic society so that men would not covet other men's wives. It is found for instance when Leah was brought to Jacob he did not see her till the morning after the marriage and he found she wasn't Rachel as Jacob had asked of Laban [Genesis 29]. For an undrestanding of the Medo-Persian culture regarding women read the book of Esther. [see below]

Western women who have never been subject to the authority of a man would have no clue why the head covering came into existence. I grew up in an orthodox system where the wife must show her submission to her husband by covering her head when in public. I have since realised it was cultural and not authorised by God as was taught.

Xena said, "I would also like to add that my friends who do wear the hijab say that it is about their relationship with god and nothing to do with men that they choose to don the head-dress.

Esther 1:12 "But the queen Vashti refused to come at the king’s commandment by his chamberlains: therefore was the king very wroth, and his anger burned in him. 1:13 Then the king said to the wise men,... [the seven princes of Persia and Media, which saw the king’s face, and which sat the first in the kingdom;] 1:15 What shall we do unto the queen Vashti according to law, because she hath not performed the commandment of the king Ahasuerus by the chamberlains? 1:16 And Memucan answered before the king and the princes, Vashti the queen hath not done wrong to the king only, but also to all the princes, and to all the people that are in all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus. 1:17 For knowledge of this deed of the queen shall spread unto all women, so that they shall despise their husbands, when it's reported, The king Ahasuerus commanded Vashti the queen to be brought in before him, but she came not. 1:18 Likewise shall the ladies of Persia and Media say this day unto all the king’s princes, which have heard of the deed of the queen. Thus shall there arise too much contempt and wrath. 1:19 If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes,that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she. 1:20 And when the king’s decree be published throughout all his empire, all the wives shall give to their husbands honor, both to great and small. 1:21 And the saying pleased the king and the princes; and the king did according to the word of Memucan: 1:22 For he sent letters into all the king’s provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that it should be published according to the language of every people."

Democracy in the West shuts its eyes as Muslim women are enslaved. Pt1
At last, a polititian with some backbone. Bronwyn Bishop should be applauded instead of being vilified for her stance against the hijab, a political prop, designed to promote gender apartheid, a weapon of visual terrorism, the symbol of a totalitarian ideology inspired more by Nazism and Communism . It is as symbolic of Islam as the Mao uniform was of Red China.
Clash of cultures? You bet!
WESTERN SECULAR CULTURE: Equality of the sexes, freedom of speech (as long as it doesn't advocate the destruction of Western secular culture - freedom of speech should not be a death-wish), religious freedom (including the choices of having no religion [Atheism], apostacy [leaving a religion] and changing one's religion), democracy etc.
ISLAM: Misogynist practices (women are made subordinate to men, are useful only as servants, sex objects, punching-bags and children machines, and are subjugated in the name of God), NO criticism of Islam or Mohammed (or death will be your reward), NO religious freedom (religious minorities in Muslim lands are called Dhimmis and are second class citizens who are faced with prejudice and social exclusion and have to pay "protection-money" called the jizyah - a kind of tax, plus, if you're an apostate, you're dead!), democracy is seen as man-made ( in fact, Shi'ites in Iraq, are now being branded "apostates and polytheists" by Sunni/Wahhabi clerics and jihadis and are being slaughtered for having elections) and therefore incompatable with the "divine" law of Allah - Shari'a law - amputation for theft, stoning, lashing and public hanging/beheadings for "crimes against modesty", blood-money, honor-killings, eye-gougings and many disgusting practices incompatible with Western belief-systems. CONT. NEXT POST

Democracy in the West shuts its eyes as Muslim women are enslaved. Pt2
According to Islamic Shari'a, women do not have political rights.Women suffer restrictions that are quite severe; in some places they cannot even leave their homes without their husband's permission. Their testimony is disallowed in cases of a sexual nature, even if they are raped.
The claim that the hijab is an essential part of the Muslim faith is totally false.
The hijab has nothing to do with Islam as a religion. It is not sanctioned anywhere in the Qur'an or the hadith .
This headgear was invented in the early 1970s by Mussa Sadr, an Iranian mullah who had won the leadership of the Lebanese Shi'ite community.
In an interview in 1975 in Beirut, Sadr said that the hijab he had invented was inspired by the headgear of Lebanese Catholic nuns..... Sadr's idea was that, by wearing the headgear, Shi'ite women would be clearly marked out, and thus spared sexual harassment, and rape, by Yasser Arafat's Palestinian gunmen who at the time controlled southern Lebanon.
The Muslim women's arguments that "free choice" is relative when you are psychologically, financially and socially dependent on your family, clan or religious group seem to fall on deaf ears. The populations of battered Muslim women in "tolerant" Canada's women's shelters seem to be ignored. In Canada, battered Muslim women say that their husbands told them that it is a God-given right to hit them.
The theory of multiculturalism in Western liberal democracies is working against women in ethnic and religious minorities with misogynist practices. Most of all, it shows how many of those who consider themselves liberal or left-wing see their energy levels rise when it comes to Bush-bashing, but lose their voice when women's rights are threatened by religious obscurantism.
I dunno about you, but I'm with Bronnie. Let's show these poor, brainwashed, Muslim women REAL freedom and ban hijabs, burkas, chadors etc. All Muslims who don't like it will be free to migrate to "Muslim lands".

Skid Marx,
I agree!

If the "Muslim issue" were unique to one country or if there were also "Hindu" or "Christian" immigration issues, then this discussion would not only be pointless, but wrong. However, like Mary, there seems to be something about Islam ...

Of course, we all know how peaceful Muslim are and how tolerant and honest they can be. Needless to say, Islamic societies are the most just and happiest nations on earth. And nobody respects human rights like Islam!

Anyway, the reason for this post is to share todays main item on Fjordman's blog. He has a great post called "Will Muslim Immigration Trigger War in Europe?" at:
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/

As you see, Islam is an equal opportunity hater and trouble maker. from the Phillipines to India, Australia, Europe, Nigeria, the USA, Canada and even Australia wherever you find Islam with other peoples and religions, you find trouble. Do the math: the more Muslims, the more problems.

Fjordman says...

(Quote) The situation becomes even worse when we enter another factor: Islam. The Islamic world is at war with pretty much everybody, everywhere. Both Thailand and the Philippines, countries where the Muslim population is not much larger than it is in some Western European countries, are facing war. Even Norway, a country with no colonial history and a Muslim population of only 2-3 %, has already experienced shootings to intimidate critics, gang fights, terror threats and attempted terror attacks, as well as visits from supporters of bin Laden. It's pretty amazing that such a small population group can create so much instability. And it's not a good omen for the future. As Herr Unswedenizer wrote to Bjørn in the other thread:

Actually, the burden of proof is on your side. Why should Norway be any different from, let's say Thailand? Everywhere in the world where muslims become 10-20% or more of the population, a war is started. What makes you think that Norway is so very special? (UNQUOTE)

Of course, it is just the rest of the world that is wrong - never Islam.

Read the whole page. Good stuff!

John Kactuz

how true kaktuz