AC.

We are not discussing religion with any discussion of Israel. You are discussing human nature, purely.

With the Israeli, it’s about wealth and power, and how to cling to it.
With Muslims, it’s about power and history, and how to achieve the return of power and prestige.

Both use religion as weapons in the cause.

Religion looses its credibility once it rises above vows of poverty; a teaching of Christ.
True religion is for poor people, and poor people have no power.
Any power and advantage derived from religion is illegitimate.
And so Israel is illegitimate. A secular state is not a religious state, especially one standing on the pillars of Capitalism.
All is plunder.

Dan

Hey Diver Dan

"With the Israeli, it’s about wealth and power, and how to cling to it."
No there's a religious aspect, you need to watch this:
The Rebbe and Bibi Netanyahu: Politicians For Redemption
http://youtu.be/rHBiT6eJaQQ

Rebbe: Since last we met many things have progressed.
Netanyahu: Many things have progressed.
Rebbe: What hasn't changed however, is that Moshiach still has not come;
- So do something to hasten his coming.
Netanyahu: We're doing; we're doing...
Rebbe: Apparently it's not enough. Since many hours have passed today and he's still not here.

It's not just about wealth and power at all, there's a purpose to it.
NON-JEWS IN THE MESSIANIC AGE: Will Gentiles Have to Convert to Judaism? – Rabbi Alex Hecht
http://youtu.be/KXj6F3AwMz4

For Islam, you want to look at Islamic Escatology.
You can find some here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/SheikhImranHosein/videos

Christians don't think they're going to be around for the Messianic Age, because they believe Jesus will return for them.
- But they will assist the Jews in their endeavours to rebuild the third temple, part of the things that need to happen for Moshiach (the Christians false Messiah) to come.

In my mind Christians are themselves seem to be helping to bring Armageddon upon the rest of the planet for the sake of Jesus second coming.

Trump Cyrus Third Temple
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/trump-s-compared-to-persian-king-cyrus-will-he-build-the-third-temple-1.5628538

"The Christian imagining of a Third Temple rebuilt by the Jews is the beginning of the end of the Jewish religion, according to this theology. Such Christians see the rebuilding of the Temple as the match that sets the world ablaze with the Battle of Armageddon. Saved from the battle will be those who accept Jesus, including the Jews, who will see the light and convert to Christianity."

Religion is so messed up.
I prefer ethics, which I can use to judge the good and bad in all religions whilst not buying into any of them.
I don't really care for Armageddon or a global theocracy.

If you actually look at the links I'm posting you'll start to make more sense of it.

The reason why I think Israel lacks legitimacy, was because the people living there (Palestine)from 1941 (Atlantic Charter) and 1945 (United Nations Charter) onwards; already obtained the right of self determination in these charters prior to Israel become a modern state, in 1947.

Anything David claims as legitimate reasons for Israels existence.
(Other treaties he mentions)Balfour Declaration, League of Nations etc;
- Is all NULL AND VOID the moment a right of self determination was recognised.
- The people living there had a right to decide what they wanted for themselves.

To DD.

I already agree that "aboriginal" people have much greater claim on Australia than those races who immigrated here in the last 250 years. But we are not giving it back any more than Israel is going to give back Israel to the Muslims. Or Russia is going to give back Prussia to the Germans.

To begin with, those who claim the loudest that Australia was stolen from them by whites, I don't consider "aboriginal" at all. It looks like all of them are of mixed race, what the South Africans called "coloureds". And some of them look far more white than black. If they were honest, they would be saying "our ancestors stole the land from our ancestors." But they wont. Because "identifying" as an "aborigine" means a lot of money to them. As well as plush and well paying "guvmint" jobs. And, as ATSIC proved, a plethora of ways to get your fingers in the public till.

There are tribal apartheid areas of still primarily aboriginal pure race in Australia, and for God's sake, they are totally dysfunctional. As a racist, I put this down to very low intelligence by the people of this unfortunate race, and their resulting stone age culture. The best thing that ever happened to them was the coming of a benign white race like the British.

As for the Israelis, I have great admiration for the intelligence of the secular ones. But the orthodox ones, I think, are as dumb as the Arabs. From what I have seen and read of Israel, most Israelis think the same way about their orthodox brethren as I do.

Oh, and thanks for your metaphor about, "the paints still wet in the corner." Good one. That goes in my "metaphors" book. I did hear of another, rather sexist metaphor this week I also thought was good. It was a about a particular woman, who, it was said, "has been banged more times than an anvil."

AC

I see your point. But I put other priorities first, as I’ve described.

And I prefer to view events through the eyes of history, which can be full of surprises of course, but with history religions always played a major role in events. That is unless money got in the way, and that is another inevitability of religion and history.
The poor are always used up.

I can see you put a lot of time into your views.

I believer the jury is still out on the authenticity of predictions in Revelation.
My view is there were drugs involved in early religion which prompted visions, which in those times when life was short and cheap, people found inventive ways to give themselves some hope against impossible odds.

Dan

Drenching oneself in the Holy annointing oil...

Kaneh Bosm The Hidden Story of Cannabis in the Old Testament
http://youtu.be/QC8g_26f0qE