"Israel bashers" is too nice a description for anti-Semites.

Why don't you produce an accurate set of maps then,
That shows the land Israel controls at 5 year intervals
And then stop complaining about what others or doing year after year David?

The worst terrorist state in the world. Israel.

Sorry, David.

This was art, to demonstrate a point,i.e., that the Israel of today is much larger than the 1947 boundaries! And as such fair comment about the illegal land grabs by an occupying entity!

And everyone including many fair-minded Jews, knows it! And are so over the endless bloodshed! Just to make a few fat cats, fatter!

I'm waiting for, I believe, a patently corrupt and warmongering Netanyahu to be outed as PM, so a two-state peace plan can be put back on the table. The Ottoman Empire may have considered that Palestine was their territory? However, Palestine had a very different view, that made it part of the Ottoman Empire, any more than ancient Israel considered itself part of Rome

! The fact that you think different tells us a lot about you and your ethical morality! A few bits of chicken scratchings on paper may make something technically legal? Bu then any conqueror can claim whatever they like, including the ownership of the bodies of the conquered!

What comes next from the pen of the Devil's advocate? the justification of enslavement perhaps?

Please tell us what's your reasonable objection to a two-state solution and peaceful cohabitation? And leave it the usual humbug, I believe, that describes the bulk of your contributions, thus far.
Without bias, Alan B.

No Saladins on the horizon then?

Dan

"A two state solution?" Like, you are kidding, Alan B?

In 1936, the British tried to implement a two state solution to the thorny problem of which culture would run Palestine. Because the British realised that "Two peoples, Jews and Arabs, wanted to govern the same land." The solution, proposed the British, was a two state solution, with the Arabs holding 80% of the territory and the Jews a measly 20% The Jews voted "yes" and the Muslims said (surprise, surprise) "no."

1947 saw the British asking the UN to resolve the conflict. The UN proposed a two state solution. The Jews voted to accept the proposal, the Arabs (surprise, surprise) firmly rejected it, and the independent Arab countries declared war. Israel won.

1967 saw Egypt, Jordan, and Syria awash with Soviet supplied weaponry, invade Israel to "wipe it off the map." Israel won and took more territory, which it offered back to it's enemies in exchange for peace. The Arab League met in Khartoum and issued the infamous "Three No's" No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiation with Israel.

In 2000, the Israeli PM, Ehud Barak, and Yassar Arafat met at Camp David under the sponsorship of Bill Clinton. Barak offered the PLO chairman a two state solution with the PLO controlling all of Gaza and 94% of the West Bank. Clinton later said that Arafat spent the entire 14 days saying "no" to everything.

In 2008, the Israelis offered the same deal, with additional lands thrown in a sweetener. Palestinian Authority Mahmood Abbas rejected the proposal.

Try and get it through your impervious skull and into your vestigial brain, Alan B, that nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel is what the Arab Muslims demand.

HAMAS leader Mahmoud al-Zahar has said, "HAMAS would definitely not be prepared to co exist with Israel even if the Zionists returned to their pre 1969 borders."

What's it like down in the garden, dancing with the fairies with Foxy and Yuyutsu, Alan?

So true LEGO.

It is really amazing that the Israelis are so gentle with the Arabs after being forced at the cost of so many of their young people, to defend themselves so often.

Just imagine the slaughter that would follow if the Arabs ever won one of these wars. There would be beheaded bodies piled very high.

There will never be a 'two state' solution. Palestinians, Hamas and Iran will only settle for wiping Israel of the face of the Earth. They hate Jews; that's all there is to it.

Here’s my pragmatic view.

First and foremost, Israel is strategically and economically a worthless sh#t hole.

Secondly, Israel is not a theist state, it’s a secular state. Most Israelis hold little regard for their religious principles. Not so the Arabs. They hold their belief sincerely, ( rightly or wrongly)!
Even on the strength of that fact alone, Israel cannot win. A win requires fanaticism; a historical fact!

Thirdly, Israel is isolated geographically. It relies totally on its allegiances with the West, a West which is crumbling.
They have long known of the totally unreliable nature of the US alliance.

Israel is following closely the history of the Middle Ages and the rise and fall of the Christian empire in the ME, which ultimately failed through abandonment of its original vision.
Europe, as a consequence also abandoned their ultimate unjust cause and ME Christian empires were over run and conquered by Muslims.

If I were an Israeli, I’d be packing my bags before it’s not possible to do so.

Dan

That "worthlesss sheethole" called Israel, Diver Dan, has an economy equal in value to all of the combined economies of every Muslim country in the Middle East, including Iran. 9 Million people as opposed to 500 million people and economically, the Jews have beat them all. No oil, no iron ore, no coal, no aluminum, no gas, no nothin', except a lot of brains. I am going to do my racist thing again and tell you straight that the Jews are the smartest race on the planet and it shows.

Even the Americans buy military technology from the Israelis because it is just so good. The Iron Dome anti missile technology the Israelis developed has the whole world looking on in absolute awe. Israel was the only country the USA allowed to modify it's F-35 fighter jets with improvements, and the US ended up putting the Israeli modifications on their own planes.

When it comes to choosing sides, I am with the smart guys every time. Especially when their enemy is a bunch of religious fanatics still living within a religious culture more suitable for pre Dark Ages caravan raiders than a modern state.

As for Israel losing it's allies, well, I dunno about that. 70 years of European apathy has allowed creeping socialism to gain an ascendency within Europe and look where that has got them. With French generals predicting a civil war in France between the French and their new Muslim immigrant population, sucking up to Muslims and showing how nice you can be to them has not gone well. Right wing parties are now ascendant in Europe.

Once upon a time, European right wing governments may have sucked up to the Arabs because of their ownership of much of the world's oil. But if anything good has come from the "global warming" stupidity it is that it has reduced the world's dependence on Arab oil. Oil was the only weapon and advantage the Arabs ever had. The Muslims have never been noted for their brains. Name one Muslim scientist with a Nobel Prize in Science?

Lego.

I said; my pragmatic view is...and based on history and the conventional underestimation of the Muslim hordes, and how historically the West consistently underestimate their strengths.

Traditionally, that underestimation is based on the biases towards overestimating their own worth and sense of superiority. It’s a fatal flaw of the West. You exhibit the bias in your post above.

If your theory of strength were reliant, and money and power automatically wins the day, then where came the French Revolution, and the Russian revolution.
The ideology of the latter, is much cause for the demise of the West, with its contribution of Marxism to the current day.

I would not put all my money on the horse called Israel. It’s actually in a weak position, and that recognition of its own position, is the cause of its weak negotiation with the Arabs resulting in shows of force, which are actually farcical.

Personally, I have no preferences either way, but I’m not fooled by the appearance of superiority. Acting from that position is foolish.
Israel is an island unto itself. It’s in a very weak position viewed from a pragmatic point of view; and who in their right mind would choose to live on a grounded battleship, which is Israel.

Dan

Dan.
One of your most erudite and educated comments to date!

Lego, agree with your summation regarding Arab oil! And there's writ large writing on the wall in regard to that commodity and indeed, our coal and gas exports.

I have long argued in favour of MSR thorium as a game-changer that would sound the virtual death knell of the fossil fuel industry and with it the influence of oil-rich Arabs!

And where future vision would all but compel the sane to reach for a two-state solution and peaceful cohabitation on all sides. So that normalised commerce and trade can replace what supports M.E. economies in the main, currently?

If MSR Thorium is not to be part of our future? Then it has to be hydrogen! And I hold in my head a technical innovation for a system that will generate endless hydrogen 24/7 And with the occasional addition of a few MLS of water for as long as or until the cows come home.

Currently, I'm looking for a partner with vision and deep pockets, given the surplus energy this proven innovation would create could be directed at other tasks. Such as a solid-state eclectic drive that could power super silent subs VLT planes or hovercraft etc. Even spacecraft? The science stacks up theory And now requires a testbed!

I have limited time on this earth thanks to the scarcity/unavailability of bismuth 213! Albeit, that therapy could be part of an acceptable partnership offer?

So those interested in making bona fide offers, need to get their skates on. I don't expect to become rich, but my kids and their kids just might. And all I worry about! That said, something that produces no CO2 or noise nor very much refuelling ever should be very popular

One day, supersonic planes will patrol friendly skies and without using a single drop of fossil fuel of any description and without any discernable engine noise! And where non-stop flights to anywhere including all the planets could well be on the table?
Alan B.

I hope Israelis do not decide to sling their hooks; they are the only democracy in the Middle East. An terrorists really should not be getting what they want. The West should helping them more.

In the turmoil of the possible removal of the PM (one replacement is described as 'hard right', which should upset the whiners) did anyone notice that their is an Arab party in the Israeli parliament). I wonder if there is a Jewish party in PNA? Just joking.

The West should be helping Israel more, not the terrorists. Age is a curse.

Democracy ttbn? We'll see I suppose.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-israeli-raam-party-makes-history-by-joining-bennett-lapid-coalition/

"For decades, Arab Israeli parties have almost always remained on the outside of the decision-making process in Israeli politics. Jewish parties shunned them as extremists, while they themselves were often skeptical of joining an Israeli government they deem treats them as second class citizens and oppresses Palestinians.

For decades, Arab Israelis have been without any influence. 'Now, everyone knows that we’re the deciding votes as far as politics goes,' Ra’am lawmaker Walid Taha told a reporter for the Arabic-language channel Hala TV.

I also think commenting on these threads merely serves to inflate David Singers own sense of importance.
- Even if you win, which is near on impossible - you still lose -

If anything, Diver Dan, the west has consistently overestimated Arab capabilities.

In 1967, the whole world was certain that the huge Arab armies that were stocked with the latest Russian weapons was going to crush Israel, for certain. Just as the world looks on today in awe at Israel's Iron Dome defence, the whole world was stunned when the Israelis utterly demolished the Arab armies in 6 days. The Arabs fled leaving their boots in the sand so that they could run faster.

During the Yom Kippur, war the Israelis turned the tables on the Arabs within 48 hours and actually came close to marching on Cairo. The reason? Brains, training, and determination, beats religious stupidity, and an over reliance on overwhelming numbers, every time.

Even in the Gulf War, the USA had expected far greater casualties and had prepared massive medical support for their wounded soldiers. These facilities were massively underutilised. The ground war in Iraq became as famous as Omdurman, when it comes to a battle which decisively beat an Arab army very quickly, and with trifling casualties.

I have already pointed out that the Israeli economy, based entirely upon brains and not resources, has made Israel the richest country in the Middle East. Much more money than Saudi Arabia and Iran combined, for all of their oil wealth. And if you look to the future it gets even more interesting. Because the Arabs will eventually run out of oil, but the Israelis will never run out of brains. And when the Arabs run out of oil, they will revert back to their original status as goat herders, camel jockeys, and sheep stealers, who just got lucky, but who threw away their incredible fortune trying and failing to crush Israel.

Why do you think that Bahrain and the UAE recognised Israel? Because Israel is where the money is, and the smart Arabs like money and know business.

If you think that "intelligent" people support the Arabs, you sure have your brain wired backwards.

Don't believe anything I say. Pick up some history books and do some research.

Listen Lego, I’ve lived with Israelites. There a queer mob. They don’t cut their hair, they wear funny clothes, all the men have beards, and they look suspiciously at you.
Obviously you’ve not been confronted with that.

And as for your comment, or suggestion that I should study history, I have. I’m well versed in it. And my comments have a historic backing to them.

Israel has forfeited the right to the holy land. They are hypocrites. They are secularists not theists. How dare they claim the holy land. There are more devout Christians and Muslims deserving of the title than believing Jews.

The Jews actually murdered the Christian head of state, Jesus. Remember. That’s history. Why should Christendom support Jews.
Islam and Christianity are closer aligned than the Jews.
As Christianity is an off shoot of Judaism, so Islam is an off shoot of Christianity.

Why can’t the farmer and the cow man be friends?
The answer to that one is simple, the Jews won’t allow it.

Dan

Thank you, thank you, Diver Dan. At last we get past your false moralising and BS legalistic arguments to see how you really think. Please watch this space, Alan B, Foxy, Yuyutsu, and any other of you anti Israel ABC type luvvies, because if you have been programmed to think that "intelligent, avante guard, progressive, free thinking, cosmopolitan people" support the Arab Muslims, well let's look at Diver Dan.

The real reason why Diver Dan wants Israel wiped off the map is a very traditional one. He hates Jews and he has even helpfully submitted a long string of extremely racist insults towards Jews displaying his outright anti Semitism. Diver Dan wants the Jews out of the "holy land" because since most Jews are not religious, ( I told you they were smart) they don't "deserve" to occupy "the holy land.

If you guys are Diver Dan's side, then you can have him. I am glad he is not on my side because I would consider him a real embarrassment. I would say that DD is a genuine, old fashioned, Old Testament, fire and brimstone type Christian, who hates the Jews because "the Jews killed Christ." And Alan B and Foxy, Yuyutsu may even be in the same boat as DD, as he or she is always droning on and on about "spirituality", whatever the hell that is.

As I have repeated add nauseam, the primary opposition to the existence to the state of Israel is religious. Then came the naysayer caste who once fully supported Israel to the hilt, but who switched sides when their peer group leaders abandoned Israel because it kept on winning. Among social progressives, accepting that winners are always oppressors, and losers are always victims, is a programmed reflex. They can't comprehend the world any other way.

It is ironic that those who take the "progressive" view on things do so because they think it displays how intelligent they are. And here they are supporting religious fundamentalists in their war against the smartest and probably least religious people on Earth.

Not very smart, guys.

Yes, Dan. You're right. Simply put, both the Palestinians and the Jews are all descended from Abraham. And ethnically the same people. Albeit with different cultural and religious belief.

The Jewish claim to a holy( this land is mine, God gave this land to me) land is founded in unprovable myth and legend. And at increasing odds with the archeological evidence.

Evidence which would destroy the legend of an exodus from Egypt and all that transpired along the way in favour of a massed revolt by local slaves? Who then simply replaced the old hierarchy and took the properties, herds and wealth of former masters/owners? [Very little has changed?]

And without moving very far from anywhere, let alone wandering in the wilderness for forty years?
Alan B.

LEGO and co.

There was a time when conventional wisdom held that the world was flat! However, no amount of unshakable conviction made it so! And your practice of labelling those who hold a different more fully informed view to you, just doesn't make them Jew-hating anti-Semitics or terrorist sympathisers! Which is where you lot always go, when the facts get in the way!
Alan B.

God Lego, take a breath!

(Let’s call it) The Kingdom of Jerusalem has the unenviable reputation as the most unstable Kingdom on earth.
It is by nature of what it represents, most definitely subject to religious turmoil.
It is also a buffer zone between the great empires of the East and the West.

As opposed to some group think on OLO, Israel State was forged at the end of an Israeli Terrorist bomb aimed at the Pommies. They are terrorists, no different!

The Jews were given “special” blessings by the Western conquerors in 1948, as a token for the suffering, which not a person on earth has not had shoved down their throats for the last seventy years. I think it’s beyond time to move on.
After all, our own ANZAC’s are being given scant regard, as a comparison.

And finally, I don’t personally feel affection any more or less towards Muslims or Jews.
Israel is a prize to be taken by the most deserving, (read fanatical).
That’s how it will pan out. The historic winner of the prize has always been the most bloodthirsty and disreputable, and looking at Israel, what has changed?

Dan

To Alan B. I labelled Diver Dan an anti Semite due to his last post, which put a series of negative racial stereotypes on Jews, and which claimed that Jews did not deserve to own "the holy land", because too many of them are secular. Your friend DD comes across to me as the worst kind of religious bigot, who despises other religions who do not worship his two Gods, or even worse, despises anyone who refutes the existence of his two Gods.

The Jews have had a continuous civilisation in Jerusalem for around 3000 years, 1000 years before Christianity existed, and 1,400 years before Islam existed. The Jews have been largely turfed out a few times but they have always returned, because they see it as the birthplace of their religion. The Muslims know it too, and since their prophet absolutely hated Jews, and he passed on this hatred to his followers, it is extremely important for the spread of Islam, for Muslims to never allow the Jews to take back what they have valid reason to believe is their ancestral homeland. That was why the Muslims put a dirty great mosque on top of the second temple. That is there way of saying that "this land, conquered by Islam, is now Islamic forever. The Jews here are finished."

That this religious reason is the real reason which the Arabs use to justify their demand for the total extermination of Israel, can be seen in some other territorial disputes around the world. The "Russian" enclave of Kaliningrad is actually Prussia. Kaliningrad is not only part of Germany, it is considered by Germans as the heart of Germany. But are the Germans firing rockets at the Russians? Or putting bombs in Russian airliners? Or sending suicide bombers into Russian restaurants? No. Because the Germans know the Russians will never give it back, and the Germans just want peace.

The Muslims don't want peace, they want a war where they can die fighting for Islam. And you support these war mongering religious nutters, and call yourself a social progressive?

Lego

You just painted yourself into a corner on that post.

If you want example of a bunch of religious nut cases, Jews would leave Muslims in the shade.
Here is where the paint in the corner is wet: Since you argue for Jewish sovereignty over Jerusalem, using the argument of continuing occupation over three thousand years, then it’s ok by that logic, to hand over Australia lock stock and barrel to Aboriginals.

They have roamed around the Australian continent for fifty thousand years. It’s an illogical argument you make.
History gives prizes to conquerors of nations. That’s how it works.

If you brand me as an anti semite on the one hand and a Muslim Acolyte on the other over this statement from a previous post Viz:

#And finally, I don’t personally feel affection any more or less towards Muslims or Jews.
Israel is a prize to be taken by the most deserving, (read fanatical)#

then you either need new glasses, or to rethink your conclusion.

Dan

I think you've all got it wrong.
- It's not a competition over which religion is the least harmful.

You REALLY want to start out with your feet planted firmly on the ground, to have a rational discussion on this.
I said this on another thread.

I think there's pro's and cons to all religions.
I think there's pro's and con's to everything.
I don't think any of the religions are perfect.
They're all flawed in their own way, on a basis of their own merits.
They all contain potentially dangerous ideology and beliefs;
People can take their religious beliefs too far, whatever religion, whatever belief;
- And justify doing terrible things for those religions and beliefs.
Same with political beliefs, environmental beliefs, racial beliefs, sexual beliefs or whatever;

If you really want to be serious about religions.
You have to look at each of them INDIVIDUALLY
- ON THEIR OWN MERITS, The good, the bad, and the ugly.

You want to identify the good and bad parts in all of them.
Only then can we have a fair discussion about them, based on the merits of what the religious scriptures of each individual religion tells us.
Then look at how they're connected.

Jews and Christians seek the Messianic age.
But the Jews Messiah and the Christians Messiah aren't the same.
The Muslims call the End Times 'Malhama', Christians call it Armageddon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Malhama_Al-Kubra
An apocalyptic great battle to occur in the end times according to Islamic eschatology. Its prophesied to be the most brutal battle in human history. It generally corresponds to the battle of Armageddon in Christian eschatology, and occurs soon before the emergence of the Dajjal (Antichrist). (aka false Messiah)

End Times By Sheikh Imran Hosein
http://youtu.be/c3JsdEpgDbs

What do you think the Rebbe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebbe
and all the jews there are singing the Tzivos Hashem anthem
- 'We Want Moshiach now'
- They want the Messiah. Listen.

We're all told to be tolerant of religions but in truth there's all this religious stuff playing out ending in a huge war, according to all believers of Abrahamic religions.
http://youtu.be/WnhMntRHqpo

AC.

We are not discussing religion with any discussion of Israel. You are discussing human nature, purely.

With the Israeli, it’s about wealth and power, and how to cling to it.
With Muslims, it’s about power and history, and how to achieve the return of power and prestige.

Both use religion as weapons in the cause.

Religion looses its credibility once it rises above vows of poverty; a teaching of Christ.
True religion is for poor people, and poor people have no power.
Any power and advantage derived from religion is illegitimate.
And so Israel is illegitimate. A secular state is not a religious state, especially one standing on the pillars of Capitalism.
All is plunder.

Dan

Hey Diver Dan

"With the Israeli, it’s about wealth and power, and how to cling to it."
No there's a religious aspect, you need to watch this:
The Rebbe and Bibi Netanyahu: Politicians For Redemption
http://youtu.be/rHBiT6eJaQQ

Rebbe: Since last we met many things have progressed.
Netanyahu: Many things have progressed.
Rebbe: What hasn't changed however, is that Moshiach still has not come;
- So do something to hasten his coming.
Netanyahu: We're doing; we're doing...
Rebbe: Apparently it's not enough. Since many hours have passed today and he's still not here.

It's not just about wealth and power at all, there's a purpose to it.
NON-JEWS IN THE MESSIANIC AGE: Will Gentiles Have to Convert to Judaism? – Rabbi Alex Hecht
http://youtu.be/KXj6F3AwMz4

For Islam, you want to look at Islamic Escatology.
You can find some here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/SheikhImranHosein/videos

Christians don't think they're going to be around for the Messianic Age, because they believe Jesus will return for them.
- But they will assist the Jews in their endeavours to rebuild the third temple, part of the things that need to happen for Moshiach (the Christians false Messiah) to come.

In my mind Christians are themselves seem to be helping to bring Armageddon upon the rest of the planet for the sake of Jesus second coming.

Trump Cyrus Third Temple
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/trump-s-compared-to-persian-king-cyrus-will-he-build-the-third-temple-1.5628538

"The Christian imagining of a Third Temple rebuilt by the Jews is the beginning of the end of the Jewish religion, according to this theology. Such Christians see the rebuilding of the Temple as the match that sets the world ablaze with the Battle of Armageddon. Saved from the battle will be those who accept Jesus, including the Jews, who will see the light and convert to Christianity."

Religion is so messed up.
I prefer ethics, which I can use to judge the good and bad in all religions whilst not buying into any of them.
I don't really care for Armageddon or a global theocracy.

If you actually look at the links I'm posting you'll start to make more sense of it.

The reason why I think Israel lacks legitimacy, was because the people living there (Palestine)from 1941 (Atlantic Charter) and 1945 (United Nations Charter) onwards; already obtained the right of self determination in these charters prior to Israel become a modern state, in 1947.

Anything David claims as legitimate reasons for Israels existence.
(Other treaties he mentions)Balfour Declaration, League of Nations etc;
- Is all NULL AND VOID the moment a right of self determination was recognised.
- The people living there had a right to decide what they wanted for themselves.

To DD.

I already agree that "aboriginal" people have much greater claim on Australia than those races who immigrated here in the last 250 years. But we are not giving it back any more than Israel is going to give back Israel to the Muslims. Or Russia is going to give back Prussia to the Germans.

To begin with, those who claim the loudest that Australia was stolen from them by whites, I don't consider "aboriginal" at all. It looks like all of them are of mixed race, what the South Africans called "coloureds". And some of them look far more white than black. If they were honest, they would be saying "our ancestors stole the land from our ancestors." But they wont. Because "identifying" as an "aborigine" means a lot of money to them. As well as plush and well paying "guvmint" jobs. And, as ATSIC proved, a plethora of ways to get your fingers in the public till.

There are tribal apartheid areas of still primarily aboriginal pure race in Australia, and for God's sake, they are totally dysfunctional. As a racist, I put this down to very low intelligence by the people of this unfortunate race, and their resulting stone age culture. The best thing that ever happened to them was the coming of a benign white race like the British.

As for the Israelis, I have great admiration for the intelligence of the secular ones. But the orthodox ones, I think, are as dumb as the Arabs. From what I have seen and read of Israel, most Israelis think the same way about their orthodox brethren as I do.

Oh, and thanks for your metaphor about, "the paints still wet in the corner." Good one. That goes in my "metaphors" book. I did hear of another, rather sexist metaphor this week I also thought was good. It was a about a particular woman, who, it was said, "has been banged more times than an anvil."

AC

I see your point. But I put other priorities first, as I’ve described.

And I prefer to view events through the eyes of history, which can be full of surprises of course, but with history religions always played a major role in events. That is unless money got in the way, and that is another inevitability of religion and history.
The poor are always used up.

I can see you put a lot of time into your views.

I believer the jury is still out on the authenticity of predictions in Revelation.
My view is there were drugs involved in early religion which prompted visions, which in those times when life was short and cheap, people found inventive ways to give themselves some hope against impossible odds.

Dan

Drenching oneself in the Holy annointing oil...

Kaneh Bosm The Hidden Story of Cannabis in the Old Testament
http://youtu.be/QC8g_26f0qE

#Armchair Critic

You state:
"Why don't you produce an accurate set of maps then,
That shows the land Israel controls at 5 year intervals
And then stop complaining about what others or doing year after year David?"

What "others are doing year after year" are producing false maps - summarised by Fact Checker Glenn Kessler at the Washington Post:
"Still, a version of this map has been circulating for almost 20 years, supposedly showing how "Historic Palestine" had been taken over by Israel. As a technical matter, the map is a confusing mélange of images: it includes something that did not exist (Palestinian control over all the territory), something that did not happen (the proposed United Nations partition) and something odd (pre-1967 occupations by Jordan and Egypt are depicted as Palestinian-controlled)."

You have been brainwashed by these fake maps. More fool you.

These maps are part of the false propaganda campaign that has been waged by the Palestinian Arabs for the creation of another Arab State between Israel and Jordan since 1967. They never claimed such a State between 1948 and 1967 - during which period Jordan unified the West Bank with Transjordan and renamed the new State - "Jordan" - and when Egypt occupied and administered Gaza.

Demands for a "two-state solution" only started after Jordan and Egypt lost the West Bank and Gaza to Israel in the Six Day War.

The only solution that can possibly work now is the subdivision of the West Bank and Gaza between Israel and Jordan in direct negotiations.

Negotiators armed with pencils and rubbers - not rockets and bombs - could redraw the current international borders to achieve an equitable subdivision in a matter of months.

Redrawing the existing boundaries would see the Jews with sovereignty in about 20% of former Palestine and the Arabs with sovereignty in the remaining 80%.

That has always remained the solution since it was first contemplated in 1922 in the League of Nations unanimously-endorsed Mandate for Palestine.

Two peoples - Jews and Arabs - with one State each in former Palestine should be the end game.

Hi David,
"Stop worrying about what others do and worry about yourself."
Didn't you ever have parents like the rest of us?
- Pretty sure that's what most parents teach their kids.

Why don't you make a website?
Call it israelaccuratemaps.com

That way you can put all the disagreements to rest.
Why don't you make it 1 month intervals since 1947?
- That way you won't have to worry about what others are doing.
If ever there's a disagreement, you can say 'Go Here'.

We both know you're not going to do that.
- Because you'd then be the one who brings Israel into disrepute by telling the truth.
You DON'T WANT to set the record straight.
What you want is to stop others criticising Israel.
- You probably don't care if an accurate set of maps exists or not.
- If you did, you'd publish a set yourself instead of wasting so much time complaining.

How many articles have you written now, complaining EVERY TIME someone submits the image of maps you oppose?

And do you know this is actually 'Australia's ejournal of social and political debate' not Israels.
When was the last time you actually wrote something that pertained to Australia?

"Negotiators armed with pencils and rubbers - not rockets and bombs - could redraw the current international borders to achieve an equitable subdivision in a matter of months."

I'd use a ruler.
Do we divide down the middle or across the centre?

Did you ever have brothers and sisters David?
Put a line of tape down on the carpet?
"Stay off my half"

Ultimately, I'm just tired of the endless killings.
- and I don't have to discriminate about which side -
It's gone on for nearly 75 years, since day one.
Many people don't even live that long.

It's a truly shameful blight on the planet.
- And I don't even care about religions.

Tell me those people you want gone...
They've been living there longer than white people have been living in Australia, right?

Everyone deserves to live in peace and with dignity.
Jews themselves expect to live in peace and with dignity in everyone else's country, right?
Why can't they extend the same dignity to the people living in Palestine?

Errrr, well AC, I suppose it is because the leaders of those people you want the Israelis to let live in peace and dignity, want to exterminate the state of Israel?

"HAMAS would definitely not be prepared to co exist with Israel even if the Zionists returned to their pre 1969 borders."

HAMAS leader Mahmoud al-Zahar.

Hey LEGO,
- You've made some really good comments lately;
Your first response on 'The phoney war on 'privilege' thread is in the running for best forum comment of the year I think.
I don't have the skills or ability to write as well as you did.

I WANT to say I think both sides are as bad as each other;
- But I can't avoid the issue that it was Jews that wanted to settle where the Palestinians lived.
- The Palestinians weren't trying to settle where the Jews lived.

- So I'm not sure that I can even say 'They're as bad as each other'.
However, that said both sides have religious beliefs I oppose, which no doubt has very much to do with the ongoing issues, and stubbornness from both sides.

I argue Israel is in fact illegitimate, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I think the problem would be solved by Israels destruction.
I guess both sides are going to have to compromise, if that's even possible, which realistically it probably isn't.

#Armchair Critic

You state: "I argue Israel is in fact illegitimate, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I think the problem would be solved by Israel's destruction."

How will the problem then be solved?