“Terrorists cannot defeat democracy.” ?

Are we sure of that? Terrorism is part of Islam, and Islam has certainly defeated democracy over the ages. Given the gutlessness of our politicians, Islam, with help of terrorism, is intent on defeating democracy again.

There is absolutely no veracity in this statement or racial/religious profiling! Simply put, it is the song not the singer that's the problem!

A Godless discipline giving itself permission to kill in God's name! And not all Muslims are the most susceptible, but all intolerant ideologies!

Those that have allowed dogma and ideology, Gary, to replace reason and logic!

Anyone can be brainwashed by the application of indoctrination, particularly, where that occurs during formative years and given oxygen by our own dog eat dog, survival of the fittest behavior?

Thus we have to a large extent abandoned the fair go philosophy, as a few of us try to amass all the wealth there is!

And by whatever means needed, just as long as they are legal if highly immoral, like those whose greedy grasping hands that take unearned wealth from those who've actually earned or created it!

This is the real problem and inherent in extreme capitalism and the huge monolithic monopolies and captive slave like markets created to serve this new fossil fueled Godles idol!

Mr Trump went bankrupt some six reported times leaving in his wake countless family firms dispossessed of almost everything they'd worked diligently for, for years.

Others show up front and centre in so called Christian churches every sunday, religiously, then come monday, out there relieving little folk of their very modest nest eggs, as they squirrel as much as they can in various tax havens etc!

Like it or not, these inherently immoral ratbags are a problem and fuel on the fire for radicalized individuals everywhere!

Moreover impossible to defeat, when all they have left to live for is a big fat zero! Created I believe, by the excesses of the greed ruled, elitist ruling class.

Take a good long hard cynical look in the mirror if you truly want to know WTFing problem really is?

You could try embracing cooperative capitalism? Except that is too inherently fair, like it or not, I believe, for indoctrinated in extreme capitalism, recalcitrant troglytes?
Alan B.

Labour/Greens and Liberals have sold out our security in order to be buddies with the corrupt UN. Future generations will not be able to believe our stupidity. Even Theresa May watched as her Government allowed mass Islamic immigration. Now people are still dumb enough to ask why. Maybe if they understood the truth (Jesus Christ) they might have a little understanding of a lie (secularism/islam). What don't people understand that when a Christian celebrates they give out presents but when Ramadan comes around! Yep the secularist dogma is putried and very quickly destroying what made the West great.

Hi Runner,

I'm trying to join the dots between an unquestioning religion and an ideology which is likely to try to question everything - and all as an alternative to yet another 'unquestioning religion', yours :)

What is evil about Islam ?

Its book refuses to allow any questioning;

it claims to be the exact words of their god (is he/she the same god, Runner, as yours ?), never to be changed;

it brutally punishes anybody who steps out of line;

it brutally oppresses women (but don't tell a feminist that, they'll get dreadfully upset);

it brutally oppresses homosexuals (ditto the 'left');

it doesn't allow anybody to drop out;

it glorifies people who murder in its name,

and

it opposes any human progress as ungodly, and death as commendable, which raises the question: does it hate humans ? In fact, does every religion which pushes the dream of an everlasting life, hate humans ? Does their 'god' hate humans, in their understanding ?

[Christ, so much of this sounds like the old socialism that I used to be in love with: shame job. No wonder the 'left' sucks up to Islam.]

If you can help me, Runner, by pointing out the similarities between this and secularism, or atheism, I'd be ever so grateful.

But you would need to be careful, because some idiot might point out some of the similarities - some, only, I'm suggesting - between your religion and Islam. Sorry :(

Cheers,

Joe

A comment from a Republican Senator questions whether a strand of Christians can be thought of as terrorists should his comments inflame people to take action:

"Louisiana Rep. Clay Higgins (R) responded to an attack in downtown London over the weekend by calling for a mass extrajudicial killing of people suspected of adhering to radicalized” Islam."

And:

"Notably, Higgins advocated for the killing of anyone even suspected of having links to terrorism, and gave no definition of how that should be determined. He described the fight as a “war” between Christendom and “Islamic horror,” echoing a rallying cry of the far-right."

Clearly, terrorists are the barbaric scum of the planet; but, it is not helpful to counter barbarism with further barbarism.

http://thinkprogress.org/house-republican-calls-for-mass-killing-of-radicalized-islamic-suspects-19824a1dbbd0

Thanks Loudmouth

To call Christianity as an unquestionable religion is a tad dishonest. I guarantee if secularism had 1/100th of the analaysis that Christianity has had then it would be seen for the absolute irrational nonsense it is.

What is evil about Islam ? (just look at the example of Mohammed assuming you have a moral conscience)

Its book refuses to allow any questioning; (Even God in the old testament invites people to come and reason together Isaiah 1:18 hence usually the greatest minds have come from Christians/Jews)

it claims to be the exact words of their god (is he/she the same god, Runner, as yours ?), never to be changed; (allah derives from pagan gods and has nothing to do with the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ). The Koran even teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross leaving them no hope of forgiveness.

it brutally punishes anybody who steps out of line; (nations founded on Christian principles have always been the kindest in the world unlike Stalin and god denying communist)

it brutally oppresses women (but don't tell a feminist that, they'll get dreadfully upset); the teachings of the new testament gave women more status and worth than any other people group had ever done. Secularism has produced nasty feminist who deny nature and often hate men. The Christian model of the family is a million times better for society than the fluid/diversity invented by sick minds.

it brutally oppresses homosexuals (ditto the 'left'); (Scripture teaches all are sinners and corrupt. That is why all need forgiveness and grace. Islam like securalism produces self righteousness. Sorry but we have no righteousness of our own).

it doesn't allow anybody to drop out; (The Christian God gives all an invitation. Refuse the invitation and you choose your own destiny.)

it glorifies people who murder in its name, (Christianity teaches that no murderer will inherit the kindgdom of God. Killing the unborn is as repulsive as jihad,)

hopefully this explains my worldview a little clearer.

Hi Runner,

Thanks for that. I did write: " .... some idiot might point out some of the similarities - some, only, I'm suggesting .... "

But luckily, I'm not that idiot :)

Yes, I agree that Christianity in its 21st century form, is light years ahead of Islam in terms of morality, leniency, flexibility and realistic responses to the actual booming, buzzing, changing world. Islam, with its prohibition of change, is condemned to remain locked into the past unless it can be radically revised and reformed, and until it allows the questioning of its fundamentals.

Cheers,

Joe

' Yes, I agree that Christianity in its 21st century form, is light years ahead of Islam in terms of morality, leniency, flexibility and realistic responses to the actual booming, buzzing, changing world. '

yep true Loudmouth that the church (predominantly the Catholic) has been filled with every vice and corruption known to man. You however have seen in your short life span the deceit of the left in the revision of history when it comes to aboriginal affairs. Pesronally what I read of your views and experience is extremely refreshing because you seem to value truth. I suspect modern day academics have also airbrushed the good that many churches have done over the centuries. The idiotic demonisation of all those involved in the cruscades just ignored Islamic brutality and theft. The problem with Christianity has never been the Scriptures or Christ but the hardness of heart and corruption of many church leaders. They were and are no more corrupt then the current mob of UN goons who have perverted science and rewrite every bit of history they don't like. GW and Israel are 2 clear examples. Just look at the fools who protest against Trumps sensible Islamic bans. And some of these are JUdges can you believe.

Perhaps instead of focusing on how dreadful fundamentalist islam-ISM is, especially the kind promoted by the Saudi's who have been and are very much favored by Western business and political interests, we should at least attempt to understand the nature of global capitalism and what it represents or has inevitably created as a world-wide cultural phenomenon (including its relation to the world-dominant religion of christian-ISM)?

The current world-situation offers only the entropic end-pattern for the disintegration of the human species - which will inevitably become the catastrophic and complete failure of the human species and the total demise of the human species.
The entire pattern and trend of human culture - including scientific materialism, all modes of false philosophy and cultic "religion", and everything relating to the current domain of ego-based consumer politics, social egoity, competitive social systems, "tribal" national systems, un-regulated economics, and conventional cultic exoteric "religion" - is about death."

Tragically, paradoxically, almost all Western "conservatives" pretend that we are now living in the best of all possible worlds - or even the most "advanced" form of civilization that has ever existed. And as such they want to ratchet up all of the obvious clearly observable negative social and cultural phenomenon now being dramatized all over the planet.

Hi Daffy,

You may get something out of this OLO URL:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=19072

It deals precisely with your preferred approach, and the craving of many to cleanse the world NOW and start fresh with something that is supposed to be better, but has never been tried before - well, it may have been, many times, but didn't work then either. But who knows, it might work this time.

Paradoxically, I suspect that capitalism, specifically Chinese capitalism, may do a great deal to transform Africa, although I think also that China is very over-stretched economically and in a critical condition demographically. But have a good read of that article.

Cheers,

Joe

Communism has failed as has extreme capitalism both of which require their own brand of slavery to survive.

Cooperative capitalism on the other hand, arguably the only private enterprise/free market model to outperform all the other business models, and by large surviving the Great Depression largely intact, even as multinational/American monoliths went to the wall.

And time and again since then, as have the highly flawed boom bust economies that allow them to proper for a time?

Co-ops invariably remain manageable, compact and able to compete the pants off of any other business model. Have never grown too big to fail and compete on a level unsubsidised playing field for your business with all comers!

And sanely, their central tenet is maximised dividends and then allow capital gains to manage themselves?

Australia's finest future lies in that direction and will if allowed, claw back our purloined economic sovereignty and an inherent fair go!

And as that occurs allow one continually circulating dollar to do the economic work of seven as normal flow on economic reality. And if you doubt that, just take a butchers at Maleny, to see a cooperative microcosm, and how happy and friendly those folks are, until a multinational moved in trying to push them around.

Tell me what do we gain when debt laden, tax avoiding, profit repatriating foreigners try to buy both your country and your heritage? Jobs? Maybe?but what else? Profits that could stay here adding to our economic well being skimmed off and forcing our government, our so called servants, to hit us with ever higher taxes, fees and charges.

And if you think that doesn't flow on into unaffordable energy/housing etc/etc. Think again.

We could do so much better if we weren't governed by self serving, deleted expletives of the first water! And then we wonder where radical Islam gets its oxygen from?
Alan B.

The article is incoherent none-sense. I'm presuming that Gary Johns is trying to make a case that "Islam is a problem" because of "religiosity, and the extraordinary attachment to the Koran as a guide to life; associated illiberal attitudes to apostasy and blasphemy; paranoia about the West and especially Jews; and the mistreatment of women" and "as a consequence, like it or not, Muslims are more susceptible to Islamisation than non-Muslims."

I'm not pretending I know what he is talking about. However, he has offered nothing to show that the source of this violence is Islamic teachings.

A far more useful article was published in the New York times: Saudis and Extremism: ‘Both the Arsonists and the Firefighters’ https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-islam.html?_r=0

It is evidence-based and quite detailed so would not appeal to the likes of Joe and runner.

From this article, it is clear that the U.S. and the West know Saudi Arabia is the source of the evil ideology that underpins the likes of ISIS. Yet they offer financial support and protection from scrutiny.

Their actions are allowing this ideology to spread which we have to presume is deliberate and purposeful.

Grateful,

[Grateful for what ? Being allowed to say what you like in Australia ? ]

When I see Yazidis marching down the street, with one of their kids holding up a sign saying "Behead those who insult our prophet",

- when a Buddhist murders an innocent person in a block of flats, yelling "Long live the Gautama",

- when a Taoist or Confucian drives a van into innocent people and then stabs whoever he can find,

I'll take notice of whatever you write, and assume that Islam is not the only problem. Otherwise, I'll assume you're an agent, or a member, of the fascist terrorist organisation, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, and look forward to your exposure. Save you prattle for the madrassas.

Joe

Islam is the problem, along with our so-called elites, who would rather destroy us than question their pet dogmas (Multiculturalism, socialism, diversity, etc...)

Now a link to a related item:
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2017/06/05/indianapolis-muslims-call-out-creators-local-billboard-insults-prophet-muhammad/370969001/

So somebody puts up a billboard that does not mention Islam or Mohammad, but for some reason Muslims say it is "offensive and untrue". If so, then it must not be about them, or maybe it is..

Having read the hadith and all early Islamic histories, I can say that all statements on the billboard are taken from those sources. Therefore, the words are honest and true. Islam's prophet, the so-called "perfect man", did all of those vile things, according to all, ALL, Islamic sources.

The fact that local Muslims, as with Muslims everywhere, including Downunder, deny these simple facts, shows how evil and dishonest they are, all of them. Then our elites tell us that is is only some Muslims (who are not real Muslims, of course) doing those things and that Islam is really really wonderful, but maybe misunderstood. And the murder and terror continues.....

Ok Joe,
Lets see if you are true to your word.

Violent religious extremism in the name of Buddhism is well documented. For example the following article Buddhist Extremism and the Hypocrisy of 'Religious Violence' by Jarni Blakkarly[1] who is a Melbourne-based journalist and a Theravada Buddhist.

Buhdists are committing genocide against Rahingya people in Burma.You can explore the numerous documentation here [1]:

--A full report detailing the case for genocide under international law [2]

This quote from George Soros highlights the magnitude of the crimes currently taking place [3]:

"Philanthropist George Soros drew a parallel between his childhood memories of life in a Jewish ghetto under the Nazi occupation in Hungary and the plight of the Rohingya after visiting a Rohingya area in Sittwe, Myanmar. “In 1944, as a Jew in Budapest, I, too was a Rohingya…The parallels to the Nazi genocide are alarming,” he said, in a pre-recorded address to the Oslo conference."

So lets see if you are true to your word.

In the meantime, perhaps you can answer the following question posed by Blakkarly, the author of the article first mentioned above,

"And indeed, many white atheists who are implacably opposed to religion speak approvingly of Buddhism and are increasingly willing to attend Vipassana meditation retreats. So why are we prepared to dissociate some religions from acts of violence, and not others?"

In addition, I note you make no mention of Christians. Can you explain why?

[1] http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2015/05/29/4245049.htm
[2] Burma Task force: https://www.burmamuslims.org/explore?explore=genocide
[3] PERSECUTION OF THE ROHINGYA MUSLIMS:IS GENOCIDE OCCURRING IN MYANMAR’S RAKHINE STATE https://law.yale.edu/system/files/documents/pdf/Clinics/fortifyrights.pdf
[4] Press Release - 7 Nobel Peace Laureates Call Rohingya Persecution a Genocide. https://www.burmamuslims.org/content/press-release-7-nobel-peace-laureates-call-rohingya-persecution-genocideFinally

kactus:
"Having read the hadith and all early Islamic histories, I can say that all statements on the billboard are taken from those sources. Therefore, the words are honest and true. Islam's prophet, the so-called "perfect man", did all of those vile things, according to all, ALL, Islamic sources."

Claiming some authority on Islam, you will have no problems offering evidence from hadith scholars which support your interpretation.

Ready when you are.

Before you start kactus, you can tell us who you studied hadith under or at least what school did you attended. If not, then can you offer evidence based on the teachings of those who are experts in hadith and the qu'ran?

The point I'm making is its very easy to read something, apply your own interpretation and come away with the wrong interpretation and mislead others.

For example, the billboard states "beheaded 600 Jews in one day". What was this all about? Was it evidence of religious intolerance, the sort of thing we have seen suffered by the Yazidi and other Muslims (e.g., Sufis) for their beliefs at the hands of ISIS? Or was there some other reason. Were they men, women and children? Was it a massacre?

Or the marriage to Ayesha. What were the circumstances? How did the rest of the community respond? How did the Prophets enemies respond?

The billboard also claims he was a rapists! Your the expert kactus: Where does this come from? Similarly for torture. Or the killing of unbelievers: was their crime unbelief? Afterall, there were battles so did this killing take place in the course of war or otherwise? Were they the aggressors or otherwise?

And his wives. When did he marry more than one? What was the motivation? How old were they? Were they widowed? Was it lust or some other reason? How did he treat his wives? How did he teach other men to treat their wives?

Over to you kactus.

Grateful,

No, the atrocities committed against the Rohingya by ultra-nationalist and fascist Burmese gangs are not carried out in the name of Buddha, as you well know, surely. Religion for most of those ultra-nationalists is incidental, not central, to their brutality, while as we well know, Islam IS central to the brutality of ISIS supporters: the shehada is what they chant while carrying out their vile acts. I don't think the Burmese ultra-nationalists chant "Om," while they burn and rape with the same enthusiasm.

Similarly, the violence between Irish groups in northern Ireland has/had more to do with those seeking to join northern Ireland to Ireland proper (who happened mostly, but by no means exclusively, Catholic Christians) against those who sought to keep northern Ireland within the United Kingdom (who happened, mostly, to be Protestant Christians). Again, as far as the first group were concerned, the issue was reunification of Ireland, and had nothing to do with being Catholic: I very much doubt that the IRA said prayers before lunching any attacks, or sent off a message to the Pope.

Both of those conflicts have far more to do with nationalism than with religion, and you know it.

No, you know very well, as we all do, that the Islamist-fascists carry out their vile atrocities in the name of Allah. Do you unreservedly condemn them for that ? Can you point to sections of the Koran which forbid such atrocities ?

No, of course not. If you can, I'll respond further to you. But I don't expect to have to.

maybe its as simple as Jesus said. Its by their fruits you will know them.

Hi Runner,

Yes, and where is the good Samaritan in the Koran ? i.e. someone who will come to the help of not just a stranger, but a stranger from another 'group' from their own ?

Like that wonderful girl in the latest attack in London, Kirsty Boden, a nurse, who ran TOWARDS the atrocities to help whoever she could. Her body was taken to the hospital where she had worked. I take that a bit personally because she grew up in a town just upstream and across the Murray from where we lived for some years. I hope they build a monument to her in Loxton - and a bigger one in Adelaide - she's a hero that we can all be proud of.

Bloody tears !

"If we must die, let it nor be like hogs,
Quartered and penned in some inglorious spot ....
..... Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!"

Joe

' Like that wonderful girl in the latest attack in London, Kirsty Boden, a nurse, who ran TOWARDS the atrocities to help whoever she could.'

could not agree more Loudmouth. Certainly a lot braver than us keyboard warriors. Can't help but be concerned for my grandkids (I now a bit selfish) seeing the society our gutless and dishonest pollies and elite academics have created for them. To think you can't even walk over a bridge in London.

You're not wrong, Runner, as they say in the country :)

Best wishes,

Joe

Dear Joe,

Grateful is a Sufi.

Sufis and Ahmadiyyans do not plant bombs, run over people, stab them or any of that. They consider themselves Muslim.
Sufis and Ahmadiyyans are persecuted by those who do the above and by Daesh.

Whatever violence is written in the Koran and Hadith, Sufis are able to ignore it and Sufi Sheikhs and Imams are able to reason theologically why any violent instructions need not be followed.
I am not learned enough to tell specifically how they do so, but obviously they have found a successful way to convince their flock.

At the end of the day, everyone does whatever they want.
If one is violent and eager to kill, then they will always be able to find some Sheikh, Imam, priest or Rabbi that will tell them what they like to hear: if they tell them otherwise, then they keep looking until they find another.

Likewise, those who are peaceful will and do find a way to remain peaceful, despite whatever is literally written in the Koran.

Sorry, Yuyutsu,

I can't believe that. If it's true, then I can't hold out much hope for any commonsense coming from any Muslims: I assumed that Grateful was simply spouting standard Hizb-ut-Tahrir propaganda.

Why do you think he's a Sufi or Ahmaddiyah ? I've always had far more time for them, I thought they were beacons of sense in the Muslim world and might lead it out of its medieval darkness. Was I wrong ?

Joe

Grateful? You want evidence, motivation, context? Evil is evil, independently of motivation or context. Stop trying to minimize malevolence! Those accusations are standard, not because they are the most important issues that Non-Muslims have with Islam, but because they are just several of the hundreds of actions, issues and doctrines specific to Islam that cause concern to people who see Islam as a religion of hate and violence. Note that this impression is not just derived from Islamic texts, but from the every day actions of Muslims around the world.

I have read most of the primary sources of Islam. Obviously you have not. Maybe you are as ignorant as those “outraged” Indiana Muslims mentioned in the article – I hope not. Too bad Muslims aren’t outraged by trucks killing families, little girls being knifed or pregnant women being split open.

So, Grateful, what do you want to talk about? The Billboard? Do you think it untruthful? Lacking context? Oh yes, anything but asking the important question: are those things true?

1. Slave owner –Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: … inflict the prescribed punishment on her….blood was flowing from her, and did not stop... He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4458.
Sad said, "Kill their (Banu Quraiza men) warriors and take their offspring as captives (slaves), "On that the Prophet said, "You have judged according to Allah's Judgment," Sahih Bukhari 5:59:447. Actually there are hundreds of references in the Hadith to slaves taken and owned.

2. Rapist - Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women... Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (ie. they were lawful for them). Sahih Muslim 8:3432. Maybe you should read Quran 4:24. See if you understand simple words.

3. Married 6-year old - Narrated 'Aisha:that the Prophet married her when she was six and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Sahih Bukhari, volume 7, Book 62, No. 64. Also Muslim 008:3309. There are 5-8 verses that give Aisha’s age as 9 when the marriage was consummated. Note that she was playing on a swing with dolls when she was summoned. Also Allah says girls don’t have to reach puberty to be married. Quran 65:4.

4. Beheaded 600 - Look up the words “Banu Qurayza”. Mohammed had the men and pubescent boys beheaded and the women and children enslaved. Spare me the usual excuses; just remember that Islam’s prophet murdered these people, even innocent boys, in cold blood.

5. Thirteen wives - Narrated Qatada: Anas bin Malik, The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number. Sahih Bukhari 1:5:268. Actually Mohammad had more than 13 wives. Check Islamic sources.

6. Murder and torture - I am getting tired. Read Quran 7:4. Can you understand the implications of that verse? Now search “list of Mohammed’s expeditions”. Do you think the dozens and dozens of attacks by your prophet were to deliver flowers? He looted, murdered, tortured, raped and enslaved men women and children? About torture -- look up “Kinana”. Better yet, consider how many kinds of torture Allah commands Muslims to do in the Quran (not including the ones he/she does personally).

Well, Grateful, are you happy now? Learned anything? This little list doesn’t even scratch the surface of the brutality and hate found in your religion. Consider the pregnant woman whose belly was split open, with your dear prophet’s blessing. Want a reference?

For all of this and more, because of the evil so often done by Muslims based upon the teachings of Islam, and worse of all, because of the indifference, dishonesty and willful ignorance of Muslims, Islam deserves nothing but contempt

Dear Joe,

Grateful has often pointed to the teachings of his Sufi Sheikh, Nuh Keller, on http://untotheone.com

I read some of the articles there and listened to some of Keller's recorded lectures and verified that he opposes all forms of violence and coercion.

Kactus
Thank you. I'm pleasantly surprised that you have attempted to support your accusations with proof, although you have failed to reference any of the eminent ulema to demonstrate the validity of your insuations/interpretations and the implications for Islamic teachings.

You'll have to be patient for a reply because it is the month of Ramadan which means each evening is preoccupied with prayer, the Quran and joining with family and friends to break fast.

However, just now as I was reading the Quran, I came to the following verse. It is an injunction on how Muslims should conduct themselves in their relationship with Allah, with those less fortunate and with those of other faiths. So if you find myself or any other Muslim infringing on these injunctions then you have every right to call us to account.

So here are the verses and I'll try to respond to your post as soon as practically possible...
Continue..

An example from the Quran on how Muslims should conduct themselves with Allah, those in need and those of other faiths:

"Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish his purpose, For Allah hath power over all things.  And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: and whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah: for Allah sees well all that ye do. And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian" Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce you proof if he be truthful." Nay, -whoever submits his whole self to Allah and is a doer of good, -he will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."(Quran 2:109-112)

Kactuz says: "Grateful? You want evidence, motivation, context? Evil is evil, independently of motivation or context."

Not providing context means that people will place events in a context that they are most familiar: their own. This means events are taken out of context. You cannot remove context and motivation if the purpose is to understand.

Furthermore, its a tautology to say "evil is an evil" and not very useful for making judgements. Australia commits an evil in turning away genuine asylam seekers who arrive by boat but has made the judgment that it is necessary to avoid a greater evil.

So noone, including yourself, would accept the statement of yours.

Stop playing games and give us some context and motivation for the events you have identified. You've declared yourself to be a hadith scholar of sorts so lets see how scholarly you really are.

Brilliant garbage, Grateful !

Is this the sort of 'argument' that they teach in the madrassas ?

You assert: "Not providing context means that people will place events in a context that they are most familiar: their own. This means events are taken out of context. You cannot remove context and motivation if the purpose is to understand."

So are you saying that evil acts are okay depending on the 'context' and the 'motivation' ? An act is not evil of itself, it just depends on the 'context' or 'motivation' ?

So you are suggesting (perhaps not here on OLO, but behind the closed doors of your Masjid) that what 'appears' to be a totally evil act, may be quite okay if the 'context' or 'motivation' are right ?

That nothing is ever 'totally' evil, it depends ?

Is that sort of stuff sanctioned by the Koran ?

Then this:

"Genuine asylum seekers arriving by boat" ?! Genuine asylum seekers would go through the proper processes and wait their turn, wouldn't they ? They wouldn't want to displace other 'genuine' refugees from the annual quota who have done all the rights things ?

Can you see the oxymoron of "genuine asylum seekers" and "arriving by boat" ?

Mind you, that's a good ploy - you'll now get the morons rushing to side with you who aren't worried about displacing genuine refugees from the annual quota. Of course, the irony is that so many refugees, genuine and otherwise, have fled from the turds of Islamist terrorism.

Devilishly cunning !

Joe

The one weapon that Islam has which can bring it victory over liberty is APPEASEMENT. We see it every day. Here is a small scale example. I presented a comment to the Guardian that Angela Merkel, although an excellent statesperson, had an unfortunate thought bubble when she invited a horde into Germany from the Middle East including a large number of unaccompanied men of fighting and raping age. Not only was the comment kerzonked, I was immediately listed for special pre-"moderation" of all comments. This not withstanding the large number of Moslem terrorist atrocity including in Germany and the mass groping and raping of German women in Cologne, to say nothing of what these Moslem hordes have done elsewhere in Europe and in Britain. (All my other comments on a wide variety of issues have been published untouched). But the Guardian is notorious for its sensitivity to any opposition to the march of Islam. The ABC here in Australia isn't all that much different. And why did the reporting of the Cronulla riots present the events as a brawl between Moslems and hooligans yet omit its origin in harassment of female beachgoers whose attire offended the Moslem cult?

Joe
There is such a thing as choosing the least of two evils.

The refugees that Abbott refused to accept from Burma were forced at gun point to boards boats by the Burmese army. Their options were get on a boat or die. Joe you are truly ignorant!

Now Abbott, as our wise leader, said "Nope". There're not coming here. The refusal to offer refuge was clearly an evil yet he saw a greater evil: allowing drug traffickers to profit as well as as missing the opportunity to look tough ( Was this before or after he performed like a true snow flake in his meeting with Putin after all the talk of about shirt fronting?).

Another evil is chemical weapons. Does anyone disagree? The Syrian government and ISIS have been condemned for the use of chemical weapons. It's been front page with world leaders united in their condemnation. So clearly its an evil.

Yet the U.S. has deployed white phosphorous against civilian populations in Iraq and Syra...the same civilians that have been resisting ISIS..and where are the headlines? Where is the condemnation from world leaders. Nothing in the local press about the video footage of white phosphorous being dropped on Raqqa in the last 24 hours...although you'll find repots in Washington Post and N.Y. Times .

So you see here is an evil and unless a case can be put for there being a even greater evil then the US as the source of this evil and other leaders and media being complicit through their silence should be condemned.

Perhaps this can be a test for Joe and kactuz. Are you prepared to condemn these war crimes? If not are you prepared to offer a justification for not having Trump and his generals face trial for war crimes?

You might also want to consider the WP used by Israel against a hospital in Gaza or depleted uranium used by the US in Iraq . Would either of you noble souls like to comment? Arent you concerned that noone has faced trial for these war crimes? If not, why not?

Grateful,

Yes, of course. The Burmese nationalist are cruelly and illegally oppressing the Rohingya minority group, who happen to be Muslim, and happen to have lived in that area for at least seven hundred years. I wasn't aware that Abbott had refused to take any of them, and I think that is very wrong if it's true.

Yes, it's most certainly wrong for any side in the brutal Syrian war to use chemical weapons, including phosphorus bombs. That would breach all manner of international agreements, as well as the Geneva Convention.

If Trump or his generals have committed such war crimes, I'm quite happy for them to be tried and shot.

Joe

Thank you Joe.
Kactus?

Thankyou Joe.
Kactuz?