Religion creates the culture and the culture creates the religion. Western civilisation, generally, has been about personal and societal liberty. Middle-eastern society, all the way back to Sargon the Great and probably before that, has been a subservient society with clear rulers and ruled. The M-E bias is toward adherence to the ruler and whoever that ruler might be gets that subservience. Its why Alexander (and a plethora of adventurers since and before) was able to so easily conquer the whole of the M-E. There is no M-E equivalent to Athens or Republican Rome, Marathon or Xenophon's exploits. No democracy ever grew out of the M-E.

Its little wonder therefore that societies based on different understandings of how society functions, created and were in turn influenced by very different religions. Christ encourages two or three to gather in his name (a personal relationship with the deity). There is no personal relationship with Allah.

Western civilisation has been a struggle for liberty and independence. Its why western civilisation has been paramount in the past 600 years. The formula, as much a product of its religion as its past, has encouraged the individual pursuit of happiness and created the freest most successful societies of all time.

M-E civilisation, as much a product of its religion as its past, stagnates and suppress freedom.

(Note: this is looking a history with broad brushstrokes over a 5000 yr period. I'm sure the usual snipers will want to pick out some period or society that doesn't conform to the above and declare themselves vindicated. So let me say now that I'm fully aware of such things am just looking at the tide of history.)

So asking whether Islam is compatible with democracy is the wrong question.

/cont

/cont

Democracy requires a society open to democratic thinking. So the question is whether most Islamic societies are built to accept democratic norms, remembering that those societies are captives of both thinking that goes back hundreds of generations and of the religion itself. Since we don't see democracy succeeding in most Islamic cultures (fading in Turkey, jury still out in Indonesia) we have to have a bias toward thinking that it won't happen any time soon. Not only does the religion need to change to accommodate democracy but the societies that nurture that religion need to change as well

Democracy must grow organically. It took Athens 100 years to get there even though they only had 20-30000 citizens to 'educate'. Magna Carta to full democracy took 800 years. (Sometimes democracy can be implanted eg Germany and Japan, but only after the society has been utterly destroyed and all its norms thoroughly discredited).

Which brings me to Islamic immigration. When we bring in an Iranian or a Sudanese, we aren't just importing an adherent to a religion. We are importing a cultural way of thinking that is very different to our own, a way of thinking that goes back 100's if not thousands of years. We bring them in, and await the second generation that we think will be purged of the old culture and inculcated with the new. And then are surprised when that doesn't always happen.

When I'm told I'm a racist I reply that I'm a 'culturalist'. I don't say that western culture is better than M-E culture, but I do say its better for me and mine. Hence I'm entirely in favour of stopping Islamic immigration when it includes cultures nurtured by Islam. So I'm sort of comfortable with taking Yazidis and muslim Albanians. But our current policy is a terrible mistake.

Good posts Mhaze.

There is also another aspect of some cultures you may or not be aware of. Western culture celebrates individualism, which is completely different to collective and tribal societies where individualism is ruthlessly suppressed (the nail that sticks out gets hammered back in).

A western person introduces themselves by saying "My name is Fred Nirk, I am an electrician who lives in Sydney, Australia. A person from a collective society introduces themselves differently. "I am sheik of the Howeitats from Mosul, my name is Mahommad."

Authoritarianism comes naturally to Islamic society as the religion itself is basically feudal, where the people are not much more than the property of the Lords, Masters, and religious leaders. This authoritarianism is even reflected in the family. The father is the head of the household and he does whatever he likes. Women and children sit at the very bottom of Islamic society with little or no rights at all.

Islamic societies also tend to be low trust societies where such accepted western concepts such as lending money and even venture capital from banks to entrepreneurs is unknown. Stock exchanges do not even exist in Muslim countries.

One of my sources has told me that banks in Australia are extremely unlikely to lend money to anybody with a Muslim or Arab name unless they can provide collateral. This is because Muslims are astonished that anybody would think that if you lend them money they will pay you back. Muslims (according to my source who socialises with bankers) seem to consider loans as little more than gifts.

Dear LEGO,

This may explain Muslim views on loans:

http://www.finder.com.au/islamic-home-loans

To AJ.

The reason why I don't bother asking you any questions is because I have no confidence that you will answer them with anything more than your customary sneery one liners, or with your sneery two, three and four liners. You studiously refuse to submit stated positions you are prepared to defend, or even reasoned arguments where your premises cross connect and your logic can be examined. This is because you already know how weak and logically bankrupt your positions are. So much easier to just keep up the childish sarcasm, although how you think our audience would appreciate your ideology's validity is beyond me.

You have claimed that Nazis and Klansmen are different to Muslims because their "dangerous and false beliefs" are "monolithic". When you realised that you could not even name what these universally held "false and dangerous beliefs" are, you retreated and instead submitted that "at least one of their values is." But you are not going to name what this mysterious value might be because of your customary fear of saying anything you need to defend. I suppose I could ask you what this value, or values are, but I have no confidence that I will get anything more than obfuscation and sarcasm. However, if always being deliberately vague is how you need to conduct yourself then it is hardly impressing our readers.

After claiming that Nazis and Klansmen share "at least one" unknown value that they all hold universally, you rather astonishingly admitted that my premise, that no ideology has ever been accepted universally. Checkmate. Thank you.

Next you claim that Muslims are different to other extremist organisations because "they don't all hold false and dangerous beliefs." I can think of a dozen dangerous beliefs that are common within Islam and I know countries where they are Sharia Law. Where I admit that I don't know to what extent, or to what degree, all Muslims believe in any of them, they are the core values of Islam and Muslims must believe in some of them or they would not be Muslims.

AJ: I wasn’t aware that there was an actual program.

AJ: <implement mental illness prevention measures, etc. Things we’ve already been doing more or less successfully for decades now.>

I believe this is your quote. Suddenly don’t know about them. Why is that?

AJ: which town … in Victoria?

I can’t think of the Town, it was about 15 years ago. But… (15/02/15)
VICTORIANS ordered by council to cover for pool event to avoid offending Muslims (Dandenong)
The City of Monash has won an exemption from equal opportunity laws to run the sessions outside normal opening hours. The council says the privacy screen is needed for “cultural reasons”. It follows moves by other councils to introduce women-only sessions for the Muslim community,

AJ: ensuring that mental illness and depression levels are kept down certainly couldn’t hurt, both directly and indirectly.

The only way that can happen is if Infidels convert. They get Depressed & Mentally Ill because our values are not Islamic.

AJ: secularism will further tame Islam,

Yair right, BS. Not in Islam’s case.

AJ: for Muslims, this is something more benign such as the belief in a god.

Their belief in Allah is “neve”r benign.

AJ: Muslims don’t all hold dangerous beliefs. This is where you keep slipping up.

If it’s in the Koran then they are compelled to believe it Or they’re apostate. Certain death.

AJ: It depends on whether or not they share a harmful universally-accepted belief.

& Islam isn’t a harmful belief to Infidels?

AJ: dissenters never break away and form another group over a tenet that would render their new group redundant.

The Greens have.

AJ: Which is why we don’t see ‘Libertarians for Authoritarianism’ or ‘Feminists for the Unequal Treatment of Women’.

“I am moslim too” signs everywhere. Libertarian women’s support for Islam, strange?

AJ: How about you try asking me some questions?

Well that hasn’t worked for me, eh, AJ.

Foxy: as much to do with their owners.

True, but they turn bad instantly.

Foxy: Mr Trad has released a statement …

He nearly blew that, but other Imams? (uTube)