.

it’s the Creator wot done it. He does everythin’ :

FRYING PAN'S THEOLOGY

Scene: On Monaro,
Dramatis Personae: Shock-headed blackfellow, Boy (on a pony).
Snowflakes are falling
So gentle and slow,
Youngster says, "Frying Pan,
What makes it snow?"
Frying Pan confident
Makes the reply -
"Shake 'im big flour bag
Up in the sky!"
"What! when there's miles of it!
Sur'ly that's brag.
Who is there strong enough
Shake such a bag?"
"What person tellin' you
Ole Mister Dodd,
Tell you in Sunday-school?
Big feller God!
He drive 'im bullock dray,
Then thunder go,
He shake 'im flour bag -
Tumble down snow!"

.

Phanto: "When is it not a choice?"

Forced prostitution, economic coercion ..

Phanto: " ... Heterosexual people can have all that as well as the best of sexual experiences so it is sad that homosexual people lose out. All human beings should have what is best and the loss of what is best leads to sadness. ... "

You are just repeating unsubstantiated claims, which have been challenged and you have thus far not addressed the challenges. What you consider the best is one thing, but surely you can recognise that given the diversity of individual tastes AND the desire for variety, that what is most satisfying for one is not shared by everyone.

Phanto: " ... Nor have you made a case to the contrary. ... "

I haven't tried. Actually, I challenged ;-) various parties to go one better than "The erotic tale of *Nova Box* and *Quiver Dick*" Toni came back (pardon the pun) with Fellatio in a 69er and I expect there is more that could be shared from various contributors. I do strongly suspect though that a range pf personal tastes and fetishes could be forthcoming .. ;-)

phanto,

You are still yet to demonstrate that heterosexual vaginal sex is objectively the best.

<<Heterosexual people can have all that as well as the best of sexual experiences so it is sad that homosexual people lose out.>>

Remember too that this is your reasoning as to why homosexuality is unreasonable.

<<All human beings should have what is best and the loss of what is best leads to sadness.>>

All the gay people I know (particularly the men) seem pretty damn happy.

<<Nor have you made a case to the contrary.>>

The case has been made a few times. You are yet to adequately address it.

<<There might be a wide range of behaviours but what is wrong with judging one experience to be the best?>>

The fact that you cannot possibly determine that objectively.

"Forced prostitution, economic coercion .."

They are still choices to have sex rather than face the consequences of not having sex.

"You are just repeating unsubstantiated claims, which have been challenged and you have thus far not addressed the challenges."

All I can see are equally unsubstantiated claims which say that oral sex is the best or it is all just a matter of taste. Where is the evidence for these claims?

"What you consider the best is one thing, but surely you can recognise that given the diversity of individual tastes AND the desire for variety, that what is most satisfying for one is not shared by everyone."

So just because variety exists there can be no value put on any of those various behaviours? No judgments can be made about them? No one is allowed to say what they think is the best?

If you really believed that oral sex is the best then you would have simply left me to my opinion. Or if you think it is just a matter of taste then you would have ignored my comments. Obviously you are not sure of your views and feel like you have to defend them. What is there to defend? What can happen by me expressing my opinions?

All that has happened is that you have exposed your own insecurities about your own opinions.

Dear Phanto,

«My claim is that the most pleasurable sex is the sex that you engage in which can lead to procreation»

As I said, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
But do you mean that sex which does not lead to fertilisation is not as pleasurable?

If the couple is old or otherwise infertile, or if it is simply not the right time of the month, is the sex less pleasurable?

Also, what about stillbirth? If the fetus dies 5 months later, can we say retrospectively that the sex wasn't that pleasurable?

«Behaviour which can never lead to procreation can never be the most pleasurable.»

Now you seem to have extended the discussion beyond sexuality, to include any behaviour whatsoever in any area of life.

If you don't like to talk about religion (which can give you eternal joy beyond the beyond any possible pleasure), then OK, let me use a different example: Are you saying that behaviour which leads you to win an Olympic medal is not as pleasurable? Or perhaps it is after all more pleasurable, but only because being a champion allows you to obtain a superior partner for procreative sex?

I think *Phanto* that you having been pinned on the ropes and suffered more than a few telling blows, and that now you are going into melt down and ought consider something like a nice cup of tea and to try not to be too worried about it.

Of course, in the wake of new experience, you may find that your personal preferences change over time, and at different times under different circumstances, as well as between different partners. Exploring what different people find most satisfying at any one point in time is a pleasure in itself is it not?

And it is worth mentioning that not everyone is up to best practice. I have had more than one partner who had had a number of sexual encounters, but had never previously known the extended delights of sexual rapture. One of them in particular already thought she had had the best that sex had to offer only to find herself more than a little pleasantly surprised.