Armchair critic

You do not have to be male, macho, massive to be a competent firefighter.

Your post is a pertinent reminder that it will take some time before some people change their view of the stereotypical firefighter of 100 kg man that runs out of the building with a person over their shoulder.

Firefighters have far fewer non-English speakers, female or overseas-born workers than any other emergency service in Australia despite lots of research showing the benefits of a diverse team in firefighting.

Roscop

Sexual harassment includes inappropriate sexual comments on social networking sites and discussion groups.

Dr Russell, despite the obvious intent to provoke, I think both Roscop and Armchair Critic make a pertinent point in relation to the fundamental differences between males and females.

We have come to agree that any proper consideration of gender inequality must be careful to exclude broad socio-cultural effects that may mask or enhance observed genderised effects.

Similarly, it is important to maintain awareness of intrinsic genderised differences that may influence socio-cultural norms. Walk into any gym and there will be men trying to build as much muscle mass as possible and as many women who are working hard to become lean and avoid developing excessive muscle mass. It may be argued these are acculturated norms, but they draw on some quite fundamental archetypes that go back a very long way!

Walk around any uni campus and there are many young women doing their best to be attractive to young men and vice versa, with both groups doing their best to check each others attributes, often with little subtlety. Neither group seems offended by the attention and young women are often much more obvious than young men!

Coercion is the result when extrinsic forces do not align with intrinsic motivation. It is the only outcome possible when intrinsic motivations are deliberately excluded from consideration. Any plan which relies on coercive methods to achieve its ends is a bad one.

The "nagging" that phanto mentions is a form of coercion. It is strictly in accord with Alinsky's guidelines for conflict-driven polarisation of debate. It has been a failure, as your article itself points out.

Feminism has had a good 50 years to develop into a mature philosophical model for human behavioural guidance and I don't think it has managed to do so yet or whether it will ever be able to be comprehensive. It has certainly provided a new lens for examination of some cultural constructs, but a lens is not a plan.

Craig Minns

A gender lens bring into clear focus the fact that a person’s gender influences attitudes and behaviours towards them. This is true for attitudes and behaviours towards both men and women. This lens may not in itself be a "plan" but it underpins action towards social progress.

I agree about intrinsic differences between men and women. There are many differences, however, that are socially constructed. These socially constructed differences need to be challenged.

I don't agree that young people flirting with each other at university can be equated with a bloke perving at a professional firefighter.

I don't know much about Alinsky. I think it was he who said “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.

Dr Russell, it seems to me that socially constructed norms that don't fit with intrinsic motivations don't last long and require considerable effort and expense to maintain, which was the point of my last couple of comments.

When it comes to firefighters, the male ones have had a long association with sexual attractiveness for females, if the number of "nude firefighter" calendars produced for charity is any guide! In general, being perceived as attractive to the opposite sex is a fundamental aspect of sexual selection and has been extremely influential in shaping human populations. A social construction in which such an intrinsic drive is treated as tainted is never going to be a long-term success and can't possibly be regarded as "progress".

The tendency to seek the mean is something that cannot be underestimated.

Socially constructed behavioural/ethical models that deviate too far from a long-term norm will inevitably return to something close to that norm. The best that deliberate social construction can hope to achieve is to ameliorate any disruptive effects if a highly deviant socio-cultural formation collapses suddenly, due to revolution or as a result of an accumulation of bad decision-making.

Feminism, if it is to be a long-term positive influence, needs to develop a clear vision of what is meant by some of the terms that are bandied about and to put a lot more care into thinking about what might be negative consequences of some forms of social construction that it might bring about. Simply pushing them into the future as something that might be or "should be" educated away isn't good enough and will end in failure.

I referred to the AWALI series earlier: have you looked it up? Barbara Pocock, UniSA; it's extremely informative.

Take this comment of Dr Russell’s:
“You do not have to be male, macho, massive to be a competent firefighter. “
I assume Dr Russell would say the same thing about being a competent soldier, like Jessica Lynch say. So why the different physical fitness requirement between men and women in the defence forces?
xxxx
* Fire brigade relaxes strength and fitness test to make entry easier for women*
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375381/Fire-service-strength-fitness-tests-relaxed-allow-women-firefighters.html

Craig Minns and Roscop

I accept that men and women have different intrinsic abilities. However, research (both in Australia and overseas) shows that emergency services (e.g. firefighters) benefit from a diverse workforce (gender, race etc).

I agree that sexual attraction is normal.

The men and women who pose for the nude calendars do so willingly. Sexual harassment legislation was introduced to prevent people (both men and women) from receiving unwanted sexual comments and behaviours.