To NC.

My first point is, that I provided four quotes from the Koran which clearly displayed that the Koran instructs Muslims to make war on non Muslims for the purpose of spreading Islam. Your response, is to claim that these quotes are misinterpretations. OK, so why didn't you post up the "correct" interpretations which you claim display that Muslims only go to war in self defence? That would have demolished my point and proven yours. Instead, you say that I should do all the work and read a bunch of Islamic scholars books who will give me the correct interpretation. That sure looks like humbuggery and stonewalling to me.

My second point is, that you are trying to justify Muhammad's genocide on the Medina Jews who would not convert to Islam, by claiming that the Jews were "treacherous." That sounds like anti Semitism to me, and it is probably the basis for the traditional Muslim hatred of the Jews. But in any case, according to the writings I read, Muhammad gave the Jews a choice, to convert or die. They chose death. That is forcible conversion. Muhammad broke Islamic law, if you claim that there is no compulsion in Islam to convert. You failed to even mention the "Jizya" tax which is another compulsion based upon a monetary penalty for not being a Muslim.

As for the case of Abu Sayyef, Muhammad's quote was "Had you not accepted Islam, I would have cast your head under your feet." That is compulsion. If this is a "misquote", then post up the "correct" one yourself.

As a Muslim, you would be better off admitting the truth that your religion is violent and evil, and start reforming it, instead of making up laughable excuses which you know are untrue.

Jayb, Loudmouth

Jayb: You post 1 March 6:55pm

Quran 2:190- Fight in the way of Allah against those WHO FIGHT AGAINST YOU, BUT BEGIN NOT HOSTILITIES. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

Your translation <<2:190. Create trouble buy demanding the people convert. If they refuse, say you are defending Islam & kill them>>

Quran 2:192- But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Your translation <<2:192. If they accept Allah then don't, kill them.>>

Is it not OBVIOUS now that you participate in this discussion ONLY to DISTORT the TRUTH.

The TRUTH is what all (Theists, Atheists and Agnostics etc) seek. Their sincerity in this search is far superior to their angle vision which could be different from yours or mine.

But in your case, unfortunately, TRUTH is what you blatantly try to suppress. This shows me conclusively what you are.

You are one of those the article under discussion warns against as potential threat to society, the other side of the coin which has the likes of ISIS on one side.

Knowing you now gives me a stopping point of my good faith effort to bring facts to your attention.

None of your ultra-extreme views can find expression, let alone the acceptance, in the mainstream.

As for me, from now on, I will totally IGNORE anything you write on this or any other thread whosoever it is addressed to.

I wish that you see one day how wonderful the sincerity in the search for truth is!

Loudmouth,

This is your 5th refusal to answer my question and hope that I will answer yours. Some hope!

NC,

So what was your question again ?

Hypocrite,

So, when someone questions something, that's an attack on it ? It's not right to ever question anything, is that it ?

So, if the Koran is the unquestionable and literal word of god, not one word of it can ever be changed, and everything in it is forever the command of god ? Is that it ?

So any sort of re-interpretation, however minor, is tantamount to apostasy ? Is that it ?

We shouldn't even be 'discussing' this topic, it's flirting with apostasy, is that so ?

Bloody hell, no wonder people are stuck in the Dark Ages.

Joe

NC: Quran 2:190- Fight in the way of Allah against those WHO FIGHT AGAINST YOU, BUT BEGIN NOT HOSTILITIES. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

Your translation <<2:190. Create trouble buy demanding the people convert. If they refuse, say you are defending Islam & kill them>>

I don't see anything wrong with my translation. The moslem problem is that an attack on, say, a mosque in France is a "Declaration of Hostilities" that can be acted on in anywhere in the World because we are all unbelievers. Such is the moslem mind, is it not.

A Hostility could be anything that a moslem declares is hostile to Islam. E.g.:
Refusal to be allowed to build a Mosque,
Refusal to move a Pig farm after a Mosque is build on the neighbouring land,
Refusing to grant a special day for moslems & screen off an area for moslem women at the Local Swimming Pool,
Refusal to put a screen around the Local Pool because the sight of so many naked bodies is offensive to moslems.
Refusing to pay to have a food declared Halal.
Declaring that the Burka or other such women's clothing inhumane.
Declaring that Sharia Law is forbidden.
Declaring that a moslem can only have one wife.
& many, many more are considered to be "hostile acts" against Islam & therefore moslems have the right to "defend" themselves or fight the unbelievers by killing innocent civilians anywhere in the World. E.g., Lindt Café. The Policeman in Victoria, ect, ect.

NC,

Found them:

* what world do you live in?

Australia, 2015.

* More importantly, what are you?

My only answer will be: a human being, living in 2015.

Now you can answer mine: are ISIS terrorists acting in accordance with the Koran, or not ?

You can obfuscate and prevaricate and engage in pedantics and sophistry and what they used to call casuistry, which will be taken as a 'yes',

or you can answer: yes or no.

It's up to you

Lego,

Your message 2 March 3:03 AM

YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING NO. 1

Quran does authorise Muslims to resist force by force and there can’t be anything wrong with it. Re-read my quotes of 1 March.

Doing this <<for the purpose of spreading Islam>> is your insinuation for which you cannot furnish any evidence from Quran.

Any resort to arms is heavily hedged by qualifiers, as shown in my quotes and many other verses of Quran which I have not quoted yet. These strict conditions must be satisfied in all armed conflicts.

Quotes from parallel injunctions of other scriptures will show you the difference in how Quran abhors war and requires it to be limited to the minimum essential level.

YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING NO. 2

<<Instead, you say that I should do all the work and read a bunch of Islamic scholars books who will give me the correct interpretation.>>

I had suggested you that “Karen Armastrong’s “Muhammad – A Prophet of Our Time” would be a good starting point…”

You see her as <<a bunch of Islamic scholars>> ?
An ex Catholic nun, she has secular views, presently, I understand – definitely not a Muslim.

The problem with you and your associates is that you distort facts – even those which have been recorded and can be reproduced like this one.

What would you do the previous history is quite obvious.

Re-read about Armstrong’s treatment of the issue of a Madina (Jewish) tribe who violated a written treaty with Muslims in the state of war. The fact is clear to the mainstream scholarship of today, the hate-site stuff excluded.

Abu Safyan (now you say Abu Sayyef?), an important Quraish leader has his conversion recorded in hundreds of mainstream biographies of Muhammad (Saw) and you don’t find any element of a forced conversion. Read real history

JIZYA is a tax on non-Muslims, just as the tax on Muslims that their religion prescribes. Now some citizens should not pay tax because they are non-Muslims? You can’t be serious!