Jay, I've done many things and I hope to do many more. I've no desire to die any time soon, but thanks for the kind offer. If you need a pair of boots, I've got a pair of slightly worn-out steel caps I don't use any more you can have. Size 10?

theHypocrisy, thank you,it's nice to have some acknowledgement, although I won't claim to be wise, despite your very kind words.

I've just watched your link to the fantastic Lesley Hazleton. Isn't she a wonderfully thoughtful and insightful speaker? It struck me how similar many of her views are to my own, although she knows a great deal more about Islam than I do. I will be making a point of reading her books and watching more of her lectures. Thank you very much.

I hope that some others here might take the time to watch her lectures.

Lesley's a great speaker, no argument. I could listen to her all day just reading the phone-book, but don't mistake style entirely for substance.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/06/lesley-hazleton-karen-armstrong-ii
(Beware dear reader, hate site, do take seriously!) suggests her glasses may be rose coloured in her love of Islam.

OK NC

You have posted two innocuous quotes from the Koran, which you claim over ride the two quotes from the Koran which I have posted up, which I say proves that Islam as a very violent and dangerous religion. If Mohammad was tolerant of other people's religion, why in AD 625 did he execute 600-800 Jewish men in Medina of the Banu Qurayzah tribe for refusing to convert from Judaism to Islam? Then there was the story about Mecca inhabitant Abu Sufyan who was arrested by Muhammad's goons and brought before him. Muhammad demanded that Abu Safyan become a Muslim or he would chop his head off. If Muhammad claims that there is no compulsion to convert to Islam, then clearly demonstrates with his own actions that he does not mean what he says, we westerners would say that he is a liar and a person who can not be trusted. And as Hirsan Ali has pointed out, there are verses in the Koran full of peace, love and mung beans, but they are very much outnumbered by verses which preach violence and intolerance.

I am tolerant of tolerant religions who mind their own business. Unfortunately most religions wish to shove their values down my throat, regardless of whether I want them or not. When they do that, I oppose them.

Islam is a very dangerous religion. Islam has failed it's own people and Muslims are the most backward and poverty stricken civilisation on this planet. It is about time you people reformed your religion but I know it is difficult for you to do that. Any criticism of your religion by a Muslim woukld mean that they would be promptly murdered. And we in the west are stating to se that Muslims will do the same thing to us if we criticise their stupid religion. But our criticism will not go away. The violence which Muslims commit in order to shut up criticism of their religion is a measure of how sensitive they are to critical the examination of their values and attitudes.

To Craig Minns.

The problems facing western society that you have posted up are valid and reasonable. And you are correct in predicting dire social consequences because of them. Where you dropped the ball, was where you failed to look at Islam and why Muslim societies (and Muslims in general) are poverty stricken failures.

The extreme poverty that exists in Islamic communities is a product of their own religious beliefs, and almost every Muslim country is an economic basket case. Muslim economies are growing, on average, only 1% a year. But Muslim populations are growing, on average, at a disastrous 4% a year. Muslim societies are great believers in breeding like flies and Muslim families are noted for marrying very young and for having families with very large numbers of children. This factor alone is instrumental in their appalling levels of poverty, superstition, unemployment and ignorance.

Even within prosperous societies, Muslims form a crime and welfare prone sub group for the same reasons. They do not mix socially with people from other religions because their religion forbids it. Their religion also encourages hostility towards non believers. Schools with high Muslim infestations are noted for their academic failure by virtue of the fact that most of the good students and teachers flee the places in fear of the violence and intimidation brought by on Muslim male students. The state of NSW has six schools with security guards permanently stationed on them to keep order. No prizes for guessing what religion most of the students are in those schools.

"Outlaw" motorcycle gangs are composed of the dumbest and most violent young men in society. They are not poor because they are oppressed, they are poor because they are violent, lazy and stupid. It is no surprise that these gangs are now largely composed of young Muslim males. Nor is it any surprise that they are "alienated". If your religion teaches you to hate anybody who is not a Muslim, despise females, and your group behaviour confirms your anti social attitudes, you can hardly be surprised if the rest of society despises you.

@Jay of Melbourne
'Explain to us you're willing to accept an interpretation of the Koran which comes from dotty old White Lefties and Liberals over the views of actual Muslims'

If I quoted the views of respected Muslim scholars and theologians with enormous followings such as Humza Yusuf, Abdal Hakim Murad, Jeffery Lang, Tariq Ramadan, Reza Arslan etc etc, etc you would have called them apologists. I quote you an independent scholar, an agnostic Jew, you call her a 'dotty old white lefty', if I quoted you other impartial contemporary or historic scholars you would have found demeaning names for them too. The funny bit is they all reach the same interpretation independently, one that calls for healing rather than hating.

The problem is not the scholarship, its you. You only want to look at what conforms to your image of hate
though it may be a tiny minority. You want to dismiss all those who are calling for love, unity and understanding though they may be the vast majority. You spread lies and misinformation, preach hate and division and then call yourself civilised.

You'll never confess to this, but your 'hypocrisy' is plain for all to see. I think you have just proven the authors point once again. Well done on getting your knickers in a knot and falling on your face - again *clap* *clap*

Now if i mis-judged you and its not your intentions that are lacking, rather its your intellect - then I apologies. No one is asking you to convert, despite what you claim, just asking you to stop hating and lying from which you refuse to abstain, is that too much to ask?

The Hypocrisy,
No actually I look for an interpretation of Islam which fits the teachings of their prophet.
If you'd listen to the talk I posted you'd understand, the speakers is saying that when Mohammed first came to the kuffar they regarded him as someone who could be trusted, who spoke the truth. As soon as he began to call them to tawhid, ie asked them to actually DO something, to go out of their way they start calling him "Liar", "A mad poet" and "Soothsayer".
ISIL is calling Muslims to work, to struggle, to Jihad and asking them to forgo Western comforts and conceits, the lazy Westernised sheikhs and scholars who don't want to give up their Mercedes cars, their air conditioning and their other "sinful" innovations and desires are simply coming up with labels, insults and justifications for their own inaction.