My, my. Now we have some people taking Hitler's very own words as shining examples of veracity!!

Yes - re the catholic Croatian fascists in his book The Power and the Glory The Dark Heart of JPII's Vatican David Yallop has some very interesting things to say about the Vatican's supportive role in these atrocities, and how it enabled Pavelic to escape, along with the plundered wealth of Croatia, even giving him shelter in the Vatican before sending him off to South America. His stolen loot was thus used to establish and support the rat-lines which assisted many nazi war criminals to escape to South America and elsewhere.
Later on he even excommunicated various catholics who testified against Pavelic's protector Cardinal Stepanic in a "show" trial.

These pictures replace a thousand words
http://alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/photogallery.html

In a later chapter there is also a section which points out that JPII actively intervened during the Kosovo crisis to assist "catholic" interests in their long running war against the "orthodox" Serbs for control of both the people and property/assets. His intervention thereby exacerbated the crisis resulting in more murderous carnage.

These deeply fascist elements are of course very much alive and well (sic) in the Vatican and other influential right-wing outfits of the "catholic" church - opus dei being a principal player in this deadly game.

So Steele Redux and Daffy the Duck,

Are you saying that two wrongs make a right ? Is that how the 'Left' thinks these days ?

Just to recap:

* Croatian fascists murdered hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, and Macedonians;

* Cromwell murdered many thousands of Irish people in his grab for land for his henchmen; [not to mention Prince William at Culloden in 1745];

* Genghiz Khan, Tamurlaine and various other despots murdered many millions across Asia, Europe and the Middle east;

* The Vikings butchered their way across much of Europe;

* * the Chins exterminated many competing groups in early China, in the first millennium BC, in the usual way of traditional societies;

* Reputedly, according to their own myths, the Hebrews exterminated 'many cities' of every man, women, child and beast, and hanged their kings from trees.

How far do you want to go back ? Does any of that excuse the terrorists currently menacing much of the world ?

Who is leading the fight, not hard enough, but still leading, against those fascists ? Lo and behold, I do believe it's the Americans.

Yes yes yes, yada yada, the US armed Saddam, yes they armed early versions of al Qa'ida against the Russians, yes they went to war against the Vietnamese. But they're about to set up naval bases in Vietnam. They have overseen what might be the most democratic system possible in Iraq. Much hasn't gone the way they thought - nyah ! nyah ! - but they're the good guys in all this.: the Ernest Borgnines or Mel Gibsons fighting against terrorism, so that you can sit in your favourite café sipping your soy lattes.

Whose side will you be on ?

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

When you played Cowboys and Indians in you backyard as a kid it was pretty easy working out who the savages were wasn't it. Life was simple, black and white, and God was in his heaven.

Most of us have grown up, we have read our history of the massacres of Indian tribes, we know of the genocides, the rapes, the slaughter of babies, the theft of land and we balance that with what we know of some of the savagery of some of the attacks on settlers.

I do not have an issue with asking that Muslims try to be more introspective about their faith, to explore what facets may allow destructive fundamentalism to fester and lash out with often tragic consequences.

What I object to is the saying through a prism of Christianity - Good, Islam – Bad because history doesn't permit it. If we can't acknowledge the failings of the faith that permeated most of the West then how can we expect those of the Muslim faith to do so.

What ultimately drove introspection of Christianity and its historic anti-Semitism was one of the great horrors of modern times, the Holocaust.

We should be honest enough to be able to say to the Muslim world we know what unchecked religious bigotry looks like and it is a horror. Learn from our mistakes, know that unchecked it will cause death and destruction of what was once thought to be unimaginable dimensions.

Without that honesty why should anyone listen?

Steele Redux,

"Learn from our mistakes, know that unchecked it will cause death and destruction of what was once thought to be unimaginable dimensions.

"Without that honesty why should anyone listen?"

Yes, you've got it, learn from the mistakes of those who have made them before, don't use the mistakes - the evils - of others to justify those of someone else.

Many Muslims have a long, hard road towards becoming modern, questioning, sceptical, reasoning human beings who take for granted that men and women are equal, that the rule of law and democratic processes SHOULD prevail over the despotic and corrupt abuse of power,of priests, kings or imams.

Whether they will find it as easy to put aside their Book just as - I presume, being an atheist - most Christians have transcended unquestioning faith in THEIR Book, I can't know. But I hope it happens in my lifetime.

If there is ever going to be a better society than a democratic one, then it will have to build on openness and democracy, imperfect and uncertain as they may be - the alternatives, so far, seem to have inevitably descended into totalitarianism, including fascism.

And that building will take perhaps decades of hard thought and painful decisions. But fascism cannot be allowed to win, anywhere.

Joe

Islam as a religion is a problem when adherents religiously and blindly follow all the 'inspired' teachings of its founder without any personal revelation of the inherent truth of its teachings. An informative testimony of Mark A. Gabriel,former Islamic University professor of Islamic history at Al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt, who converted to Christianity, clearly illustrates this.

Sadly many delusional persons acting as if they were true Christians have ignored Christ's teachings. Ghandi when asked what is his opinion was the greatest enemy of Christianity being more widely accepted in India replied it was the [behaviour] of the Christians! [paraphrased].

Islam does not follow Christ's teachings and in many teachings is in direct contrast. Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or who He said he was in his claims about himself.

To become Christlike is the only thing in the whole world worth caring for, the thing before which every ambition of man [and woman] is folly and all lower achievement vain." - Henry Drummond