Israel will never return to the pre 1967 border. The Muslim war machine has gone a long way since 1967, and to return to the 1967 borders would make Israel completely indefensible. It is insanity to even contemplate it, as it ignores the two reasons why the Muslims want to crush Israel.

The first being, that Mohammad absolutely hated the Jews for refusing to convert to his new religion and his peppered his Koran and Hadiths with numerous passages instructing his follower to hate the Jews. The second is, that Islam defeated the hated Jews on their own homeland, built a mosque on the hated Jews most holy site, which is their way of saying "we have crushed you, and this is now Muslim land forever."

The Muslims quite plainly do not want just a part of Israel/Palestine, they want it all. If you can't figure that out, then it is useless even debating with you because you have lost touch with reality.

Juliantter's religiously inspired theory that there is war in the Middle East because the two protagonists are Muslims and Jews, who have no sense of love and forgiveness like Christians, is more worthy of hilarity than serious consideration. It can only be believed by people who think that their particular religion, or their particular version of a religion, is the only valid one. Which, I might point out, is exactly the sort of thinking which is the cause of the all of problems in the Middle East in the first place.

Loudmouth's point that most Muslims are unaware of their own park past is absolutely valid. Like SPQR, I have debated against Muslims on other sites who were completely unaware of how Islam spread throughout the Mediterranean in the period 700-800 AD. Only recently, a former Muslim woman (now Christian) claimed in her book (Cruel and Usual Punishment) that most Muslims were even unaware of the "sword" passages in the Koran. Many Muslims are shocked at the Muslim on Muslim violence in the Middle East and how both sides justify their murderous behaviour by quoting the Koran.

No Lego
I never said Jews and Muslims had no sense of forgiveness and peace.

You say that.

I say both Islam and Judaism have passages in their books which present peace and forgiveness as well as passages preaching vengeance and violence. At times those who put reliance on violence and vengeance rise to lead or influence both religions. Such is the case today with the state of Israel and Islamic terrorism.

You either completely misunderstood this or you deliberately deny this. Either way you are not presenting my view truthfully.
You should withdraw and apologize for your misrepresentation.

But you won't do that because you are already a proven liar.

Lego
We who are Christians on the other hand preach only peace and forgiveness.

We like the founder of Christianity rejected the Torah and much of its teachings.
He tried to reform Judaism. He was crucified for trying to do so.
And while you go on and on about The violence of some Muslims, and portray all Muslims as violent you overlook the violence perpetrated against others by the leadership of Jewish people, notably that against innocent people who challenge their views. Christ and the Palestinians are notable among them.

What was that Moses commandments said about lying?

Julianutter, you said that forgiveness and peace were fundamental to Christianity, but not to Islam or the Jews. Your position can easily be discerned as therefore saying that these virtues exist only in Christianity and not in the two other religions. I think that your charge of me "lying" is therefore wrong and un Christian of you.

The Muslim world is a violent world, and the reason for that is because unlike every other major religion, Mohammad advocated violence to spread Islam. And he advocated extreme violence towards those who were not Muslims, those who would not accept Islam, those that were women, and those that criticised Islam in any way.

Let us examine Christianity and Islam.

Christianity was started by a Jewish pacifist who advocated pacifism, tolerance, forgiveness, and respect for people of other religions. For 1600 years the Christian religion was a very violent one, because the ordinary people were forbidden to read the words of the pacifist Jesus Christ. Since the Reformation, the pacifist principles of Jesus Christ have done a lot to moderate violence among practicing Christians. Any person who is totally intolerant, unforgiving, or who advocates extreme violence can be termed "un Christian." But that does not mean that most Christians are pacifists. Most Christians do not believe in pacifism, but they understand that controlling and moderating violence is a virtue to be aspired to.

This is the opposite of Islam.

Islam was began by a Bedouin warlord who wanted to make his warriors invincible in battle. The guy was an intolerant psychopath who killed anybody who opposed him. His holy book justifies violence to spread his religion, and justifies extreme violence over anybody who criticises it. His laws based upon his religion are misogynistic, intolerant, barbarous and cruel. Islam has shaped the violent mindsets of Muslims in the same way that Christianity has done the opposite. Many Muslims do not want to be violent. But they can not criticise those who are violent in the name of Allah. To do so would be blasphemy, and blasphemy is punishable in Sharia law by death.

'Julianutter, you said that forgiveness and peace were fundamental to Christianity, but not to Islam or the Jews. Your position can easily be discerned as therefore saying that these virtues exist only in Christianity and not in the two other religions. I think that your charge of me "lying" is therefore wrong and un Christian of you.'

Absolutely wrong ... again.

I said

'... both Islam and Judaism have passages in their books which present peace and forgiveness as well as passages preaching vengeance and violence.'

and

'We who are Christians on the other hand preach only peace and forgiveness.'

Lego besides lies you spread of hate.

'The Muslim world is a violent world,...'

That is an example of stereotyping hate speech. But keep it up it shows us all the extent of your tribalism.

It is outlawed in our Christian world. It isn't in your world and therein lies a huge part of the problem the mid east. It is with the beliefs and practises from the dark age.

It is not unchristian to challenge liars' behaviours. It is the behaviour that is judged. You can change to be truthful. Your lie cannot change.

Christians don't agree with your view about Christ. To them He is the Son of God, not just a Jewish pacifist ... of which there are evidentially still quite a few round today.

I think your lack of logic, comprehension, lying, hatred and bigotry proven.

Your behaviour makes you an illogical, hateful, bigoted and lying nitwit.

Those one would expect to be prime characteristics of a avowed and vocal supporter of ethnic cleansing and the current State of Israel's attitude to Palestinians.

Now that mate is how to pour scorn on the helpless.

loudmouth

'Just give me the URL of a photo of a Yazidi's kid holding up a severed Sunni head and I'll give your notion of equivalence the time of day.'

Would photos of a bunch of Israelis sitting in plastic chairs cheering on the slaughter of kids and women in Palestine substitute