I am sorry, but this partisan paradigm of us versus them strikes me as more then a stretch. As citizens of a country like Australia, who exactly is us and who is them. You seem to be defending some non existent phantom from past centuries. There is no them, there is just us. You can purchase a kebab in Sydney or in Albania. You can pray in a chapel or a mosque in Hong Kong or in London.

Nationalism is a tool used by the powerful to manipulate fools for their own ends. The powerful get richer, whilst the least powerful send their sons to return in body bags. It has ever been so.

City obliterated: fallujah
Illegal weapons used: white phosphorous, enriched uranium
US veterans report genetic defects
Torture: abu Ghraib pictures, public justifications by Philip ruddock of torture
Civilian murder: war logs released by lt manning to wikileaks
Illegal war: no WMDs
Punitive War: coalition stands down entire Iraqi infrastructure: local police, military, government, public service
Al queida Exaggerated fictional enemy, following the same script the NAZIs used against Jews.

Worse still. Is the sheer incompetence that after 10 years, neither Iraq nor Afghanistan is under any kind of civilised order. This is neither a war or an occupation, it is neither nation building nor exporting of democracy. It is pure barbarism: looting of art, looting of oil, experimentation with weapons, experimentation with torture techniques. Experimenting with manipulating western opinion. It is a laboratory of grand barbarism.

So as I say, even the NAZIs would be impressed with the sheer bloody mindedness of it all

So you would agree, as I do, that the West should pull out of everything Middle Eastern. Leave it all to the fanatic fighting Islamic factions to get stuck into one another. Is that what you are trying to say? What happens in the Middle East is not the Wests problem & the West should stay out of it. You have my vote.

You realize of course that the West is then not obligated to take any Asylum Seekers/Refugees & what the West has taken should be returned to the Middle East. The West now realizes that there are no "innocent civilians" because all the fanatic fighting Islamic factions do not belong to any recognized Army & are in fact all civilians & all civilians, men, women & children, as seen on the media, are involved in the disputes in one way or another.

The Middle Easts problem is not our problem. This problem in the Middle East started long before there was a "West." Just after Mohamed died. The West, sure as doG made little black ducks, doesn't want the Middle Easts problems infused into Western Culture as is happening around the World at the moment.

Good evening to you...BRIAN of BUDERIM & YEBIGA...

You seem to forget, that we all have an opinion, whether or not that opinion is right or wrong ? Because both of you, and STEELEREDUX have chosen to take the high moral ground, it doesn't necessarily mean, we who happen not to share your opinion are any less moral, nor are we perforce, incorrect with our views.

Personally, I do not think children should be caged at all. Nor should they be allowed to become involuntary pawns for these people. However, a much harder line MUST be taken with these people, who believe they can evade and ignore the rules, and simply override those other more virtuous souls who've waited patiently for years, in centres all around the world. Too bad for them, let 'em wait !

So with respect, your lot don't have all the answers, nor do you have any premium to the real truth. In fact, you're just like us, in that we can only assume or presume if you like, the real motivation, why many of these people wilfully circumvent the correct protocol ?

Interestingly, I have my own views and opinions, of which I don't propose to share with you, at this time. The word fraud is writ large, in my thinking with many of these people ! I'd bet my pension, if one were to dig deep enough, you'd be surprised what you'd find ?

Dear o sung wu,

You wrote;

“Personally, I do not think children should be caged at all.”

May I welcome you to the ranks of “self respecting Australian would not want children in indefinite detention”. Never doubted it for a minute. Fashioning a medal as we speak.

You also wrote;

“a much harder line MUST be taken with these people”.

Does this include the children?

And further do you agree with the actions of Tony Abbott in refusing access to children in our detention centres on Nauru and Manis Island for our Human Rights Commissioner because it was out of their jurisdiction?

Do you feel we have a responsibility, as the nation that transported them there, to ensure these children are not being further traumatised?

Finally as you seem to be ready to jump to the defence of people like jayofmelbourne are you in lock step with his view that “Advocacy of universal human rights and global democracy is warmongering,”?

Many countries declined to participate
YEBIGA,
Why don't you tell us why they didn't? 1, because they're anti west & 2, because they don't have the funds. 3, that leaves the western countries to do the dirty work as usual.

What I can not accept is the web of lies which render the vast majority of westerners and Australians stupid. The lies which demonise a whole people, the entirely unnecessary human rights violations, the incessant propaganda which frames the subject.

Both Afghanistan and Iraq are illegal aggressive wars. There is no amount of disinformation or equivocation which can change that fact. Whilst most nations in the world acceded to the US sabre rattling over Afghanistan, very few even western countries supported the war in Iraq. In the age of the Internet this record is there for all.

Sure, We are all entitled to our opinion, but for heavens sakes, at least read up on the basic facts. It is not like they are difficult to access. There are so many posters here who' s opinions are uninformed, inconsistent, and barely intelligible. I am accused of being a troll by posters who, as much as I can ascertain, are suggesting the very concept of human rights is actually responsible for these wars and refugees! Another would bet their pensions that at least some of these boat people have questionable, even fraudulent intentions!

It ill behoves a country of immigrants to behave as we do. Marching in goose step with the US. Lord admiral tony Abbott protecting our northern waters from these Islamic extremists dressed up as refugee women and children. Setting up concentration camps for processing these fraudulent refugees. And the steady media diet of simplistic idiocracy. Bleeding hearts to the left of us and fascists to the right - a pox on all of us.

But not because of our immorality, a pox on us because of our lame, craven, cowardliness. 100,000 or more marched to end the Vietnam war. When the government lied to us we protested, when employers exploited we striked, we stopped logging, and whaling. Today, We are a hollow generation, weak insipid, defeated. A generation obsessed with celebrity, status, careers, superannuation, weekend retreats. An old and senile generation entirely unfit for the technology available to us, an embarrassment to our predessors, our progeny and the environment