Dear George,

I agree that there are restrictions built into natural science so that it cannot explain everything. I also think there are aspects of reality beyond the reach of science. However, going from there to assuming the existence of a deity seems to me a non-sequitur especially since there are non-theistic religions which have similar assumptions regarding the nature of reality and the limits of science.

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Dear David & One Under God,

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The oldest known literary texts date from the 27th or 26th century BC.

The oldest surviving text of the bible are Greek manuscripts, known as the Codex Vaticanus, written on 759 leaves of vellum (a parchment made from calf skin) in uncial (capital) letters and has been dated paleographically (the science of ancient script) to the 4th century AD.

Compared to the most ancient literary texts, the bible is a relative newcomer. Many religious believers consider it to be an historical document despite its relative juvenility and lack of historical accuracy.

I, too, tend to look upon it as an “historical document”. It is couched in language which would horrify most Christians, Jews and decent folk in general if somebody had written it today. It is inconceivable that anyone other than religious fundamentalists or terrorists would take it seriously.

Cherry picking the text in order to extract what may be considered acceptable reading in the 21st century can hardly be considered intellectually honest. It amounts to saying “Read this bit and that bit and that other bit over there. This is the word of God. That is not the word of God. This other bit is the word of God. No, not that bit. This bit here … This is the truth. That’s just fable. This is sacred. Don’t take that literally …”.

Apparently, before the Roman Emperor, Constantine, assembled them in order to arrive at a consensus, the Christian leaders could not decide which biblical texts should be considered "holy" and thus "the word of God" and which should be excluded. They finally arrived at an agreement and Constantine commissioned fifty bibles in 331 for use in the churches of Constantinople.

It seems the Pharisees of the second temple, after the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, did the same thing in deciding on the books that now compose the Old Testament.

The bible has its rightful place in the Vatican library where it has been safely stored since the 15th century.

It became obsolete about a thousand years ago.

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george..<<..Assuming..the existence ..of reality..beyond the reach of science..does not*..contradict leaving/science..a free-hand..to carry out..its investigations...>>

ignoring..that by..selective-funding..will not/be present..to explore the peternatural;..and science-magazines...wont allow it..past their peer review..

[heck..any creation/evolution-forum..begins
with..it wasnt god..thus..any validation..of god..will be deleted..unthinkingly

[and..even comments..will shortly be..a thing of the past]
http://www.hangthebankers.com/mainstream-media-to-remove-comments-section-on-articles/

love/forgiveness/grace..dont pay..the bill$$
http://www.examiner.com/article/pulitzer-journalist-1-media-pathetic-obsequious-lie-about-everything

<<..you..can,,“have..a free-hand”..to walk..and explore..the world,>>

but..you can/not..walk..under the sea..nor the ..$e@
without the means..to survive..*you study..that your told

<<..that restriction..is built..into the.nature..of just..walking.>>

the same..applies to belief..in god
sure it..can be faked..[or sexed up..like..the global/warming numbers]
aftter all..to the mug punters..MATERIAL seeing=believing..

[thus we see..the most..absurd..critters[emerge..fromhumam/minds
[often based..on..a few fragments..of some bone/turned into dna/free..stone]

but..the mug/punters..[not..really science-minded..but mindless
believe the natural/selecting..evolving..theoretical..spin..

and..the peers re-VIEUW-ers..keep
it all in..[in/house]..you better/believe it..if god was...the physical made good..he could never..'reach..australia]

i agree..with george..

<<I simply believe..that similarly,..there are restrictions
built into..the very..nature of..(natural)..science.>>

ahhh men

the outward.. form..of the Word/science
takes..its..literal sense),..as the reasoning..
of why..the outward form..is to difi-cult..to rationalize..into any..*science

[it would..merely fix..into stasis..in..one plaCE
the eternal [OMNI_PRESENT]..living/loving one..

[look..here he is..in a box]..
just..like..priests of old..thought to..own/him..by simply..knowing..his name..[lol]

this cant happen..cause god lies..*within..you..too..
even..in paris..as much as..we here..in the land..of 0zzzz

<<the Word...in its literal..or natural/sense
possesses..its fullness..and also its power..by its means

as..the way..
through..the word..a person is..linked with..the heavens,
containing all things..[energy]..past..which..would be separated..from mankind..eternaly..

but for..the literal/sense..of the words.

<<Everyone knows..and..acknowledges..that..the Word is..
in its depths..*spiritual..but up/to now...it has..been obscure..[*where]..this..*spirituality..was hidden...>>

all*.things..in-time..become cliche'
as..their energy..continues..to change_form*

like..my edits
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15072#15072

its funny..im watching some..'scientists'..on tv
[you know them shock-jock..scientists..[that..*like to blow things up]

anyhow..they clearly..dont support..the c02 global warming/cooling..thing..[in their/work's]..as they had before them..a bucket of liquid..c02[dry-ice]..nex..tone climbs..a ladder..[with a bucket of boiling water]

anyhow its the collision..of opposites
it revealed much..to me..on the conciseness level..
but how much more..via the unconscious..[or spirit/of the work

]..[but then..they..put..a white bmw..
[product placement..is everything../under the position/law]..plus they put as well..a black/bmw..

and..then..measured the temp/difference..between the black[that absorbs]..and the white..[bmw]..which reflected..the heat range of light..away

anyhow it was then..that..i..became aware/of my guide/minds urging..

i saw..that the absorbing/black=material[in-active]..
that/that..of the seen [that has absorbed energy..the dark material[pig-ment]..reflects that.

that..while..the opposing..of refraction..is reflective..
the..[white light]..= spirit..[the active]

remembrance/remnant..or[the fruit/of..our energized work..
it..truthfully..in part..is the remnants..of the energy..that was..*

before..its remaining became..its refractive memory

think..all/light reflected off the white
yet..*sustains the black..its energy converse..[con-version]

Those think wisely..who realize
that nothing..of nature can be eternal,..since
space and time—by material division..into its parts—in part..are..that..what take away..the sting..of infinity and eternity.

http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15072#15072

Dear david f,

>> However, going from there to assuming the existence of a deity seems to me a non-sequitur <<

I agree, and have never claimed otherwise. Many posts ago I described my Catholic worldview (actually the metaphysical part of it) as being in four steps or on four levels:

1) A belief that there is a reality outside and beyond what science can handle (the logical opposite of what I called the Sagan maxim). At this level I share my worldview with most religions, including (some) Buddhists (it is sometimes hard to tell whether an ancient oriental religion could be seen as distinguishing between what modern science can, and cannot investigate).

2) A belief in the nature of this extra reality to include an entity - usually referred to as Being - that can be MODELED (through mythologies, sacred scripts, theologies) as a PERSON that one can communicate with on a non-physical level, the “vehicle” of this communication being human consciousness. This is the God of Abrahamic religions, perhaps somehow, or partly, present also in some other religions.

3) A belief in the standard tenets of Christianity.

4) Acceptance of, or adherence to, the Catholic version of Christianity.

These four steps are like axioms, except that step n (n=2,3,4) is comprehensible only on the basis of step n-1 and one can accept step n only after having accepted step n-1. No sequitur here, step n-1 certainly does not imply step n.

oug,

>>ignoring..that by..selective-funding..will not/be present..to explore the peternatural;..and science-magazines...wont allow it..past their peer review..<<

If this means that science magazines will not accept papers dealing with occultism (or criticism of e.g. Einstein’s relativity based on a poor understanding of basic physics), you are right.

Dear George,

I may share step 1 of the four steps you cited. However, I do not share step 2 as the God of the Bible is both unreasonable and inconsistent.

He is unreasonable when he wipes out most life on earth because he is dissatisfied with the behaviour of some humans.

In most parts of the Bible he issues decrees which must be obeyed. However, in his dialog with Abraham regarding the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah he submits to questioning and even changes his mind. He obviously has not faced the logical consequences of his acts. Genesis 18:20-33.There are elements in the story of the destruction which parallel the Greek myths.

GEN 19:17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

GEN 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus

Orpheus travelled to the underworld and by his music softened the hearts of Hades and Persephone (he was the only person ever to do so), who agreed to allow Eurydice to return with him to earth on one condition: he should walk in front of her and not look back until they both had reached the upper world. He set off with Eurydice following, and, in his anxiety, as soon as he reached the upper world, he turned to look at her, forgetting that both needed to be in the upper world, and she vanished for the second time, but now forever.

Greek mythology and the Bible both follow the scenario that one must follow a quasi-magic ritual of not looking back or one will suffer consequences.

If you do not subscribe to the God of the Bible with his inconsistencies and magic formulas do you have a perception of the nature of God?