FH,

I really don't know about you guys. I have spent a lot of time reading Islamic history, hadiths, the Koran and going to Islamic blogs, forums and Q&A sites. It is a good, necessary work, and kind of amusing in a strange way. How ungrateful you are! Ha!

One thing is for sure, I will never understand how you Muslims think. It is quite unbelievable. When discussing Islam with Muslims, all logic seems to evaporate into thin air.

About your references to the life of your prophet. You say: "My references are Arabic History, Arab Christian historians, and western historians...

How can you argue from these and ignore the early works of Muslim historians and even followers of Mohammed? (such as Ibn Ishaq, al-Tabari and Bukhari). Muslims have no problem citing from them when it serves their purposes. By using the early works they give credibility to them as sources, so if A (the good parts) is true, then B (the 'bad' parts) must also be true. Also, in any writing of history, an early or contemporary account always has precedence over later comentaries. The later works you mention are just opinions based upon selective sources, and very biased. The problem (for you) is that these works paint a very unflattering portrait of many aspects (the B stuff) of Mohammud's life.

This is part of the many problems I have with your religion. This selective blindness causes me to believe that Muslims are not being honest, and therefore cannot be trusted (simple logic, Mr Spock!).

I have said this as nicely as I can. I am shaking my head as I write this, a little disgusted with you Muslims for not seeing the obvious, and a little disgusted with my poor ability to explain things that I see as crystal clear.

Nao e' facil. Nao sei nao. Talevez um dia vou conseguir me expressar melhor. Ciao.

John Kactuz (still shaking his old bald head...

Kaktuz,

What made you think that I am ignoring Hadith or other historical references?
I am just distinguishing what makes sense and what doesn’t.

From my perspective, it is simple: I spent a long-time in the agnostic world and there was little sense starting from the character of the prophets before establishing the logic of God, messages, etc. So I started from scriptures (Quran, Bible and Torah) comparing likes and unlike and trying to ‘storyboard’ it if you like the term. I gave the Quran a special attention because of the lack of physical miracles so I compared Arabic writing and text style to text of the same period and prior (Ibn Shaddad period, as I am fluent in old Arabic).

I spent six years on this journey and when I came to a conclusion that made sense (to me), it just became apparent which parts of history makes sense and which doesn’t it.

Kaktuz, The issue however is not universalism but for one to understand and accept that what makes sense to me is not likely to make sense to everyone else no matter how passionate I am about it (Subtle hint for Boaz David and Philo!). I accept that there are others who can’t have life without alcohol or gambling for example. I personally don’t understand it but I am not going to walk into a pub and preach. So as you said: you dislike us, don’t understand us, etc..Just let us be because we are human beings, we have families, we enjoy life with sports and family and friends gathering drinking Bavaria 0.0% alcohol.

As for extremists I am still convinced with my real life theory: these individuals or groups are mainly targeting Muslims. In 1984, they used to organise open day sessions at Unis in Cairo to explain their beliefs and theories. They use youth frustration with oppression, corruption and mismanaged economy with the “Islam is the Answer” clichet. More jobs and democratic middle east will exterminate terrorism.

Your head position might have moved from ‘shaken’ to ‘scratched’ but anyway,

All the best,

F.H. :) it is as I thought, but I won't go into that.

As for your sources, all the histories and such like must come 3rd in order of 1/ Quran 2/ Hadith 3/ those sources.

Enough said on that.

It seems your search was sincere and determined. Your 'storyboard' approach is to be commended.

Your conclusion is interesting "What made sense to me"

The noteworthy point about the 'gospel' as preserved for us, and the teachings of Christ is this, sometimes they DON'T make sense. Not to the hearers, not to us. The classic example is as follows:

Mark 8:27 and following. Just as they had realized Jesus IS.. the Christ/Messiah, he 'began' (this is MOST crucial) to teach them:

1/ That the Son of man must suffer. ( This was totally against popular view of 'Messiah')
2/ Die (what ?.. how can this be ?)
3/ Rise

What kind of Messiah is this ? A very weak one it seems.

The 8 concluding chapters of Mark are the continuing of that one theme. "Suffering, dying,rising Messiah"

The disciples were so thick headed, they still just did not 'get' it.

Approaching Jerusalem James and John the sons of Zebedee approached him. "Master, let us sit at your right and left hand in your glory"

This is like we humans.. we like to have a satisfying, understanable, reasonable, and rewarding Messiah. Happily, the Holy Spirit preserved the true teaching of Jesus, that of "the last will be first, and the first last", "He would be leader of all must be servant of all"

Yet, in that servanthood and lastness, there is found "That peace which passes understanding"

I can understand why you were not attracted to the Christian faith, perhaps you were looking for something too human ? I can only guess, and I'm not trying to be cynical or 'smart' here.

I don't think there is much more to explore on this topic now.
So, I'll probably bow out.
Grace

FH...

That is the easy way out... When it comes to holy writings I would think any true believer should not "pick and choose." If your God (or gods) are really God, He will insure that the message is honest and uncorrupted. If Mohammed is the messanger of God, then God would not allow those slanderous things and the inconsistencies to be recorded. But they are there, and there are lots of them. So, what gives?

There is also the fundamental issue of words and their meaning. Unless we all agree that bread is bread, and not cement, then we are in trouble. So, to me torture is torture, and a very bad thing. Murder is murder. You cannot live life and socialize on this planet as a fellow human unless you share basic concepts (mental and verbal) expressed in language with others.

Your "makes sense to me" argument doesn't make sense. Furthermore, you have chosen to associate yourself (through your religion) with others who evidently have different standards of "what makes sense" and some of the things that "make sense" to them are not very nice. Have you asked why these things make sense to them? Is it because of the same words you read and reject, but they accept as divine commands. If so, who are you (or Irf) to criticize them for acting upon what makes sense to them? And what kind of diety would be so ambiguous as to propagate a 'pick and choose', 'love and hate', 'kill and be kind' do-whatever-you-want religion? It still doesn't make any sense.

Unless there are absolutes, unless there is conceptual consistency, and unless there are standards that apply to all people all of the time, all is lost and society cannot exist.

G'day Kalweb

Sure, would love to but where do I start and how do we get in contact should I do it on this forum?

How about I start with welfare abuse?

Here's a comparative

I used to work for the NPWS in Sydney, It was my job to sell and check for tickets for vehicle entry. I sold thousands, pensioners, after producing ID, received free entry.

This is my personal experience my workmates, even the lefties admitted the same.

In the 7 years I worked there we had a broad ethnic mix visiting the parks.

Chinese visitors: Five pensioners in seven years.

Aussie mossies: On busy days five in 3 minutes.

During ramadan the parks would be relatively free of moslems, they can't eat so no picnic. In a 4 hour shift all ethnic groups would arrive, I'd issue 10 - 15 pensioner passes out of about 200 tickets sold. From October onwards when they came in quantity every weekend I could issue at least 40, one day I did about 90.

Who they where.

Lots of moslem single mothers with anything from 2 - 7 kids. They weren't really single, hubby was often there in the tarago too. I'd ask them 'does your husband have a card too?' 'No' she'd say, 'Is that him?' 'Yes' Easy to catch out I would ask to see both drivers licenses, they'd live at the same adress.

I've seen guys with 4 wives, all with pension cards.

Many 'disabled' pensioners, often driving late model vehicles towing $40000 jetskis. Such cripples were often early 20s, male and superbly fit. Checking their licenses, it was all 'legal'.

I saw on the immigration web page that 70% of lebanese are on welfare.

I'd believe it.

More fun stories with fires on fire ban days, racist taunts, threats of violence, blocking access gates so emergency crews can't do their job.

It's really depressing

The Bali bommers don't see their actions as evil or sinful [against God] they believe the're doing Allah's work, and will be heros in the afterlife. That's the point of it. They don't believe they need forgivness for their actions, the're performing a divine act of judgment upon a decadent society. To apologise with remorse means the've abandoned their belief in the virtue of their action this leaves them vunerable sinners condemned by God. They carry the burden of this sin before God.

In Islam the individual carries his own sin to the grave and must make personal atonement. The first blood shed in Jihad atones for all past sin.

It appears Islam neither practise forgiveness or knows present forgiveness, as they constantly plead for mercy upon past sins in the hope they will make favour in the end with God. That's part of the reason when defending Islam they bring up the distant past i.e. the Crusades; they have not learned or practise forgiveness on their enemies. Much of Hitler's theology was based upon the same belief- Jews murdered Jesus. Jesus could forgive his accusers and murderers - Catholics could not forgive till this last Pope.

Compare: in 1940's we were at war with Japan, today we are good neighbours in spite of the terrible atrocities they performed upon captured soldiers. Though some individuals have not forgiven the Japanese, we have. I've had Japanese exchange studens live with our family for 9 months - wonderful children.

In Jesus teachings God's forgiveness for sins happens now as we turn away from our evil behaviour and is permanent. This is also how it is to be worked out in human relationships. Jesus said forgive 70 X 7 everyday others who offend us, for as we forgive others so we also are forgiven by God for our offences against Him. However one who constantly offends on the same issue has not repented, nor knows forgiveness. If it's a constant violation of socially accepted standards then other action needs to be taken to bring about correction for the offenders sake.