Imajulianutter:

“Christians believe also it is an 'inside run' to Paradise… the Hebrews… believed their martyrdom would be rewarded by the vengence of a greater power”

The difference is that nowadays Christians and Jews do not generally act on this belief and have not done so for centuries. Muslim extremists today employ tactics such as suicide bombings aimed of killing as many infidels as possible in order to get to the promised afterlife. When was the last time you saw a Christian or a Jew blow themselves up with the aim of killing infidel civilians?

“Israel is an Apartheid type regime which has a constitution and laws that discriminates against it's minorities”

Do you actually know what apartheid means? I suggest you look it up - Wikipedia could be a good start. Can Israeli Arabs live in the same neighbourhoods as Israeli Jews? Can they go to the same shopping centres? Can they use the same public transport? Can they go to the same universities? Can they practice the same professions? Can they get themselves elected to parliament? The answer to all these questions is a resounding YES. Can you tell us what you are basing your apartheid allegation on?

AVW,

of course you are joking.

Firstly martyrdon does not necessarily take the form of suicide. It can take the form of undergoing death in any circumstance for the perceived benefit of a cause or belief.

Which martyrdom option would you take?

1. Inflict as much harm as you can to your enemy as you undergo death.

2. Die without acting but wishing vengence upon your killers by claiming your god will take the appropriate vengence.

3. Die while forgiving your killers and asking your God to forgive them?

I can think of any number of reasons for thinking all options are all equally insane ... In any sensible universe I know you'd agree.

Some muslims, some christians and some jewish people would take at least one of those options. Why do you vilify members of just one group who act upon their belief? Because it uses immediate violence? Do you believe a wish for God's vengence would be for God's vengence to be non-violent.

That's as silly

Christiandom and Judaeism are full of accounts of their particular choices.

Both their respective modern political and legal systems are built on the basis of those choices.

Both choices inflict immense harm on entire populations. The Christian choice usually harms themselves.
The Hebrew choice initially harms others and will usually lead to their victims enacting similar vengence. It merely spirals. As is evident in the mid east tonight.

Apartheid
Are any non Jewish religious beliefs included in the basis of Israeli law? The Israeli Constitution specifies Israel's Laws will be based on it's Judean Heritage.


There are any number of Israeli actions that reflect that bias, from illegal occupations to restrictions on movement. Those usual things that are barred under the usual international conventions, that are always applied in Western Liberal Democracies. These are never ever ratified by apartheid regimes.

David G

It is all very well expressing humanity. But that achieves absolutely no result except making those closest to those slain a little easier to bear.

My debate is centered upon changing the opinions of those who support systems which promote hate through the acceptance of vengence as reasonable behaviour.

You know if the violence of Hamas and Hezbollah could have been irradicated by the killing of their leaders, destruction of a city's infructure, blockades and terorizing innocents it should have worked by now.

How many time have we seen the Israeli's wreak vengence upon their tormentors only to see them replenish their leaderships and ranks, re-build their cities, stockpile and launch more and longer range missles and keep the support of their populations. And in the process actually get democratically elected in a fair election?

What's that definition of madness?

Do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

However there has been a change in the situation.

It is astonishing to see the Western Liberal Democracies lining up, from Obama down, in support of the democratically elected Egyptian President, the Muslim Brotherhood's, Morsi's endeavour to broker a peace and a change of attitude from both sides.

Now they are two very great and significant changes.

Well well who'd have ever thought Egypt a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' member of the Arab world calling on both sides to be peaceful... and supported by all the worlds great democracies.

lol

Imajulianutter wrote:

>>It is astonishing to see the Western Liberal Democracies lining up, from Obama down, in support of the democratically elected Egyptian President, the Muslim Brotherhood's, Morsi's endeavour to broker a peace and a change of attitude from both sides.

Now they are two very great and significant changes.

Well well who'd have ever thought Egypt a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' member of the Arab world calling on both sides to be peaceful... and supported by all the worlds great democracies.>>

Well, yes.

Mostly Morsi seems intent on getting Hamas and Islamic Jihad to calm down so that he can get on with building-up the Egyptian economy.

If Morsi can stop the rockets it's a win-win for all parties – especially Israel.

--Morsi emerges as the great peacemaker but now has his personal prestige invested in ensuring the peace is actually kept.

--Israel – especially Southern Israel – is spared its daily dose of rockets.

--The Palestinians in Gaza maybe, just maybe, can be persuaded to develop their economy and live a better life. Given its situation Gaza could become the Hong Kong of the Mediterranean.

--And if you believe the Israelis are evil monsters intent on forcing the Gazans into the sea and have had their plans thwarted by Morsi you are welcome to enjoy your delusions. Neither the Israelis spared the rocket threat nor I care in the least.

Truly win-win

We can but hope Morsi succeeds.

@imajulianutter. I would not place to much weight on anything Obama says in support of Morsi. Both US houses have unanimously passed resolutions in support of Israel's current offensive. The Americans continue to arm and finance the Israelis. The US recently blocked, again, a resolution in the Secujrity Council condemning Israel's latest aggression. As long as Israel has American support they will not change their policies one iota. One of their ministers said a day or so ago that the aim was to return Gaza to the Middle Ages.

I agree with your definition of madness with a caveat. Israel pursues policies that are arguably insane but they keep repeating them because they continue to have the support of the US, Australia etc. just as a child will behave badly if they are never corrected so too will Israel continue. We shouldn't be surprised. Their goal of a Greater Israel has been openly expressed. It so only a matter of time before they try again to steal the water of the Litani river. A former colleague at the university of Bergen told me 40 years ago that there would never be peace in the Middle East as long as there was a Zionist state occupying Palestine. Time is proving him correct. I agree with Alan Hart's analysis that Zionism is the real enemy of the Jews. The distinction is unfortunately lost on most of the apologists above.

Let me clear something up here.

A ceasefire brokered by a Muslim Brotherhood president of Egypt that actually stopped the rockets would be a massive win for Israel generally and for Netanyahu particularly.

Only conspiracy theorists like James O'Neill or someone like David G* would think otherwise.

The fact that Morsi was forced to put his personal prestige on the line would be an added bonus. It would signal that Morsi was more interested in building the Egyptian economy than in getting entangled in a war with Israel.

And it would also indicate that a Muslim Brotherhood president was prepared to work with Israel.

Far from being some sort of defeat a Morsi brokered cease-fire that obviated the necessity of an incursion into Gaza is an outcome fervently to be desired. Most of the Israeli public would love it. it would practically guarantee Netanyahu's re-election with increased seats for Likud.

*On 25 August 2012 8:27:36 AM David G wrote:

"If there has been hatred of Jews over centuries then there must be some reason for this which must have something to do with Jews themselves"

This sort of statement speaks for itself

See: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14025&page=0