Given Egypt's near-catastrophic economic situation Egyptian President Morsi's room for manoeuvre is limited.

The so-called "Arab spring" was really a cluster of hunger riots that deposed geriatric autocrats. If the new leaders do not improve the lot of their long-suffering people they too will face hunger riots.

Egypt especially faces the problem of a still rapidly growing population, massive youth unemployment and under-employment, poverty, illiteracy and a rising bill for imported food.(It is the world's largest wheat importer.)

Instability drives tourists and investment away.

However much Morsi may bluster in public he will surely be trying to calm Hamas down.

I have a feeling most Egyptians would prefer a job before a confrontation with Israel or anybody else.

NB: As ever I am merely commenting on the strategic situation - which in Egypt's case is not good.

I shall not be entering the debate on the rights and wrongs of Israel.

I've been raising the possibility of Israel driving the Gazans into the Mediterranean or into Egypt for quite some time. Perhaps this is the moment for them to strike.

With Gaza denuded of Palestians, that only leaves the West Bank to ethnically cleanse which, given the existence of Jewish settlement there, could be accomplished with relative ease.

Then Israel, with help from the U.S., could concentrate on weakening Iran and follow that up with its plans for Greater Israel.

The pieces could be falling into place except that there would be reaction from the Arab Nations which would fear a mega-Israel with good reason.

WW3 will be with us soon. It will be nuclear. And it will involve most of the world.

Kiss your children each night!

"In fact, while the Arab Spring has invigorated nearly every other revanchist political cause under the sun, thus far it hasn't unleashed a surge of anti-Zionist fervour."

By killing the Hamas leader it is apparent that Benjamin Netanyahu is doing his best to make sure that the surge of anti-Zionist fervour is again unleashed.

David

This has more to do with Israeli politics then is does anything else isn't there an elections in a few weeks?

...One obvious attribute of the Jews is their highly successful propensity towards “doing business”. Now is the time (I suggest), to do a deal with the Arabs, sell-off the farm and get the "flock" outa there!

These prognostications overlook the presence of well over five million people in exile while racist interlopers who keep them in exile occupy their homeland. The injustice of the exiling of the Chagossians of Diego Garcia by colonialists may last for ever, because there aren't many of them, but the clamour of the fast-growing population of Palestinian exiles (three million in Gaza alone) for right of return to their occupied homeland is ultimately "too big to fail".

Return is held in check by America's dependence on Israel as a cat's paw in the oil-rich Middle East, but this can last only as long as the oil does. Then good bye America's military and financial backing for Israel, the exiles will repossess their homeland and the racist settlers will have to return to theirs.

Meanwhile the world will continue to lose patience with Israel, a process the assiduous Israel lobbies won't be able to stem.

The article seems well reasoned and rational argument.
Violence only ever begets violence!
Nobody wins a war!
War only ever produces victims, massive loss of life and even more massive loss of property and public treasure!
And it seems to me, that Israel, with her quite massive overdone response, to the bee stings of small missiles, are simply playing the fanatical evil doers game for them?
Early warning, shelters, and a lead storm that takes out the missiles, rendering them and or their intended purpose completely impotent, would be a better response, as would be, continued completely covert sanctioned assassinations of bloodthirsty fanatical leaders, who seem to be spending their own people's life support funds on, highly inaccurate missiles!
Israel, could respond with drones, that simply monitor missile launches and respond immediately in kind, but only as a last resort, that indicates all attempts to negotiate a lasting truce have failed.
As mentioned elsewhere, one catches more flies with a teaspoon of honey than a whole jar of vinegar, or indeed, responding exactly like hated Nazi SS storm troopers!
And it could be costing them critical allies or almost equally critical neutrals, in their possible future, armed life and death struggle, I believe, with a psychotically led and possibly already nuclear armed Iran.
If Iran's other enemies weren't so absorbed by the Israel/Palestinian conflict?
They may refocus a very disapproving gaze on Iran and its absolutist regime, who I believe, see themselves as the natural leaders of the entire middle east and its extremely important oil supplies?
Israel needs as never before, to settle all of its differences with its neighbours.
And that can only ever occur at the negotiating table and not at the point of a gun!
Rhrosty.

No, the article is neither well reasoned nor rational. It betrays an alarming ignorance of Middle eastern history from the appalling Balfour Declaration up to the present time. In order for Israel to exist in the first place it had to displace the original inhabitants, which it did with a ruthlessness that continues to the present. Our government rightly condemns ethnic cleansing when it occurs in Africa or the Balkans but is conspicuously silent when it is carried out by the government of Israel.

Such is the arrogance of that government that it does not even bother to hide its intentions which are the creation of a 'Greater Israel" at the expense of its neighbours. Just one of many recent examples was Israel "retaliating" because a Syrian mortar fell on an Israeli military base on the Golan Heights. The Golan Heights are Syrian territory, illegally occupied by Israel since 1967. They have no intention of leaving peacefully.

Israel behaves the way it does because it knows it can continue to defy world opinion as long as the US remains on side. Despite occasional huffing and puffing from Washington that is never in doubt. Australia remains conspicuously silent on the latest Israeli outrages as it has reliably done so in the past.

Reliable opinion polls in the Arab countries of North Africa and the Middle East overwhelmingly identify Israel and the US as the greatest threats to world peace. That is the opinion of ordinary people, not the dictatorial satraps that the US supports.

A mighty conflagration is looming in the Middle East and when it erupts responsibility will firmly lie with the outlaw gang in Tel Aviv and those who support them.

LOL

David G,

James O'Neill...[9/11 Truther extraordinaire :) ]

Maybe we evil Jews will at last have our way and destroy the world.

I mean we've been accused of wanting to do this often enough so maybe we should just get on and do it.

With nukes it's possible. Boom there goes Tehran. Boom there goes Cairo. Boom, Boom, Boom Damascus, Baghdad, Beirut, Riyadh, Mecca, Aleppo, Alexandria, Qom, Istanbul, Ankara, Amman all gone.

100 million dead with another 200 million to die of radiation sickness, thirst and starvation. More deaths in and hour than both world wars combined.

ka Boom - there go the Middle-East's oil fields and oil and gas terminals. Petrol at $20 / litre

Oh well, till then Shabbat Shalom all

(Exits stage right with evil smile on face)

@Steven Meyer. Quite what my views on 9/11 have to do with the topic under discussion evades me, but then you like red herrings and your post is an extended exercise in reality avoidance.

The facts about Israel's behaviour are there for all to see for those who bother to look beyond the misinformation steadily served up in the mainstream media, and OLO for that matter, as Singer's periodic contributions witness.

Just to take but one small example. Look at the votes in the UN over the past 30 years on resolutions involving Israel. Overwhelmingly they condemn Israel's conduct. You might see that as evidence of some rampant anti_jewish conspiracy. I see it as the majority condemning conduct that is unacceptable in the international community. The same would be true if the inhabitants were Buddhists, Catholics or worshippers of green cheese.

The World Court has also condemned various acts of the Israeli state. Israel ignores them too. Settlements on the West Bank; the "diet" imposed on the Gazans; the Wall; the use of excessive force; the arbitrary detention without trial of thousands of Palestinians; the regular invasions and attacks on neighbours such as Lebanon; targeted assassinations of foreign citizens; etc etc etc.

You may prefer to see that as plucky little Israel defending itself in a hostile world. The majority clearly see it for what it is: international outlawry on a grand scale.

For information about how it began, Ilan Pappe's book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" is a must-read. As a genuine Jewish citizen of the territory (born there, didn't settle on someone else's land) Professor Pappe has meticulously studied the recorded history of the Zionist enclave, town by town, village by village. The title of his book says it all about the information he compiled.

Israel has no legitimacy and its best inhabitants could be profitably helping Palestinians take on board the moral lessons of the Enlightenment to prepare for a livable democratic home for the whole population, exiles and all, with a birthright to Palestine. As the oil runs out and the Israelis' position at the American teat fades, it will have to look at building a one-state life with its neighbours.

Well, Israel is calling up 75,000 reservists. It only used 10,000 in the 2008-9 massacre in Gaza so it must be planning to kill ten or twenty thousand Gazans this time or drive them all into the Mediterranean.

Of course, Australia has given it the green light along with the U.K., the U.S. and other warmongering members of the Immoral Western Imperialists Cabal.

Perhaps Australian troops will be called up to go and kill Gazans as well, join in the turkey shoot. Oh, what fun!

With Gillard, you'd never know.

'Arab anger toward Israel "weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes," ... Take away those "moderate" regimes - such as Hosni Mubarak's government in Egypt - and Israel would presumably be in a world of trouble.'

A mis-reading of the Middle East.
Egyptians are not Arabs.

Why are the assumptions made, the repressive pan-Arab aligned Socialist Dictatorship of Mubarak was 'moderate' and the newly democrately elected Egyptian government of Morsei won't be moderate?

Something about those assumptions is terribly wrong and doesn't fit with any understanding of our Western Liberal Democratic traditions.

The other Socialist regimes that have fallen since the US defeat of The Iraqi dictator and the subsequent relatively peaceful insertion of Democracy in Iraq has caused the massive people led change in the Mid East.

The biggest single change has been the underlying rejection, unspoken or recognised anywhere, of the dominace of the Socialist tenet of pan-Arabism.

No longer are middle east nations defining themselves as Arab. They are seeing themselves as Egyptiams, Iraqis, Iranians, Jordanians, Palestinians etc.

The only loser nation in that change is Israel. No longer do the militarist Jewish dominated Government of Israel have a single broad target to attack and vilify as enemies.

Israel cannot now claim it is surrounded by a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' Arab world.

This latest incursion into Gaza is the death throes of militarism in the mid east.


It is now surrounded or becoming surrounded by democraticaly elected Governments... who represent the views of and have respect for all their citizens.

That makes Israel look less like a Western Liberal democracy than it's neighbours. As these Governments start to peacefully take Israel to task for it's repressive measures and it's undemocratic and illegal occupation, for it's landstealing and militarism they will win approval and support for their actions throughout the Western Liberal Democracies.

Israel will hurt itself by fighting this peacefulness with military attacks and deceiptful propaganda.

To survive Israel needs to fundamentally change and adopt Western Liberal Democratic peacefulness... just as recently have many of the other sematic nations of the Arab speaking world.

To me, both the Jews and the Arabs are basically the same good people with different religions. They are just being caught in a fight dictated by fate. Neither sides want to give in or give up. Both sides are determined to stand their ground with all they have.

Well, what can we do? We should just respect their decisions and let them fight. Don't take side. It won't help. Don't pretend you care and try to stop the fight. The fact is that had the wars in the past been allowed to end properly, say, the losers had acknowledged the victor and settled the matter once for and all, the conflict wouldn't have had lasted for so long.

People die, yes, but if you stopped the war before it reaches a proper conclusion, more people die in the following years, similar to an open wound continue to bleed. The reality is beyond our wishful thinking and people must be realistic. Let them fight a short, brutal, bloody, but decisive war.

Just imagine what would have happened if the US didn't defeat Japan in the Second World War. See what have happened after the half-pregnant Lebanon War, more trouble.

Peng

Not all non-Jewish middle easterners are Arabs.

All people of the middle east, including the Arabs and Jews are racially semetic people. Some speak Arabic and some speak Hebrew and some speak other dialects and languages.

After the defeat of Japan, the victorious western liberal democracies maintained an occupation which oversaw the reconstruction of Japan and we assisted the Japanese to install democracy, as we did in Iraq. We assisted the re settlement of refugees. That occupation was scaled down and eventually dismantled.

That has not been the case in any of the conflicts between the Israeli government, it's neighbours or those of it's citizens who were forced to become refugees. ie the Palestinian people of Gaza and the West Bank.

Israel hates, preaches hate and formally instils hate in it's children.

imajulianutter:

"Israel cannot now claim it is surrounded by a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' Arab world"

Now let's see: On Israel's southern border, we have the benevolent Hamas movement ruling Gaza. In the north we have Hezbollah, another group with nothing but noble intentions towards Israel. In the north east, we have Assad’s Syria, a beacon of freedom and tranquillity. Yes, I can see your point, no 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' regimes whatsoever.

"Israel will hurt itself by fighting this peacefulness with military attacks and deceiptful propaganda"

Peacefulness? Right, I'm sure peace is the real intention behind the daily missile barrage from Gaza into Israel. What would you suggest the Israelis should do? Sit back and enjoy the daily rockets?

Rhosty, it is my understanding that the Israelis are already using drones to keep the Palestinians under surveillance. It is also highly likely that drones are being used as attack weapons much the same as the Yanks are using them in Pakistan.

David

Avw

You forgot Egypt ruled by a Muslim Brotherhood / Salafist alliance with a tendency to persecute Coptic Christians.

We also have Iraq where some Shia factions seem determined to wage Jihad on the Sunnis and other Shia sects.

And BTW I would not like to be a Syrian Christian or Alawite when the Assad regime finally falls.

And let's not even talk about the Iranian Mullahs or the Saudis.

Yep, not a tyrannical misogynist or Jihadi in sight.

imajulianutter

I suspect you are a muslim, which is fine. But don't let your religious affiliation blind your judgement, and your sense of reality. It does not help your cause by distorting the reality. It only invites ridicule and contempt.

History does not begin last Saturday, and people know their history.

The muslim nations around Israel hate Jews for some reasons, and they tried to stop the establishment of the Israeli state. And the Jews were ruthless in dealing with their neighbours, and wars broke out. Israel defeated the muslim nations time and time again, and some of them accepted their defeat and made peace with Israel, but not the Palestinians.

Had the Palestinians accepted their defeat, they would have been integrated into different countries, or, even into Israel. If you lost a war, the noble thing to do is eating the humble pie and let your people rest, and you may get another chance in the future, or develop your nation in a different way, like Germany and Japan.

For some reasons, the Palestinians refuse to let history be history, and they want unravel the time and return to the time and the land they once lived on before the war. Meanwhile, other nations moved on, some of them become very successful and prosperous, like Germany and Japan.

Some 60 years went by, the Palestinians made no progress at all. Generations after generations devoted all their lives to the futile dream of defeating Israel

continue...

If I were a Palestinian, I would just get out of there live my life in a better way. I would learn from my enemy and try to be better than them. You just google "Noble laureates Jewish", you will see the contribution made by the Jews over the years in science and the generation of knowledge. Why not learn from them?

It is very sad to see Palestinian people suffer for so long. However, no one on earth but the Palestinians themselves could change their own fate. It requires courage and honesty to face the reality, to criticise your own culture; it requires generosity to forgive your enemy; it requires wisdom and intelligence to solve problems without violence; it requires imagination to find a way out.

If you have none of these qualities but hatred, you are at a dead end lane way. You are breeding generation after generation of pigheaded and ignorant people who live in misery and die in misery.

Why? You must ask yourself.

Your post displays a highly developed symptom of delusion. I don't believe you are a liar, as you sound sincere.

hey Graham,

where are you?

AVW, Stevenmeyer,

The Israelis usually claimed they're surrounded by a hostile Arab world. Jonathon Ariel recently repeated the usual vilification and generalisations, 'the tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist forces which rail against us'

You've missed or completely misread the mis-named 'Arab Spring'

You need to recognise the old socialist dictatorships have been or are being replaced and that there is no longer an 'Arab World'. They're facts ... you seem in denial about it.

Ahhh but why doesn't that surprise me. You wouldn't know how a democracy works even if you had it gently pointed out to you how one is supposed to work. After all you do seem to think Israel is a democracy.

Here is how we westerners and so far the Iraqis, Egyptians, Palestinians and Lebanonese have recently elected governments and how those governments are choosing to govern their great diversities.

1. It is not just about ruling for the majority by the majority.
2. It is about the elected representatives governing with consideration to all citizens, for the good of all citizens.

peng,

how do you see how my beliefs impact in the forming of my opinions? How are they causing delusions?

How does being a muslim blind one's judgement and cause an inability to see reality?

If I was a muslim I would be quite rightly offended by your generalisation, vilification and hate speech.

You suggest only the Israelis have the qualities of 'courage and honesty', an ability to self evalulate, have 'generosity to forgive', 'wisdom and intelligence' and 'imagination' and the Palestinians lack them?

'If you have none of these qualities but hatred, you are at a dead end lane way.'

Why doesn't that also apply to the Israelis?

You're indulging in hate speech.

That you call me a liar says more about you and your lack of intellectually ability in facing well reasoned and logical opinions based in fact that differ from your puny attempts at justifying the hate and warmongering of the Israelis.

ps You haven't the sensitivity to put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians.

imajulianutter

please, by all means, give us some facts about Israel and Palestine.

The best revenge is to live a better life than your enemy. Do Palestinians live a better life than Israeli people? No brainer. Apparently those people believe otherwise, say, the best revenge is to make your enemy live just as miserable as you are. In the end, those people become a nuisance, unable to win a war but refuse to concede defeat.

Muslim nations in general, Arab nations in particular, have a sense of cultural-religious superiority that does not tolerant self-criticism.

Shame you are not a muslim, given the attitude you have exhibited here.

Peng

listen carefully.

Arab culture derives from the Bedioun tribes of Saudi Arabia.

From where are the diversities of the cultures of the Egyptians, Palestinians, Lebanonese, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis and Iranians derived? Obviously not the Bedioun tribes of Saudi Arabia eh mate?

That all speak Arabic or many share the religion of Islam is no answer. Much of the world speak English and adopt the tenets of Christainity. That doesn't make them all English or necessarily practicing Christians.

It's a shame you aren't a Western Liberal Democrat. If you were you'd be ashamed of your lack of intellectual development or ability to logically and reasonably prosecute a reasoned argument

As western liberal democrats we reject, like christ, notions of vengence, we prefer Christ's teachings of forgiveness. You've just exemplified my positions regarding Israel and the West.

Further to my post of Friday, 16 November 2012 7:25:48 AM

This piece in the Philadelphia Inquirer sums up the situation well:

While Gaza roils, Egypt has issues at home

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/inquirer/20121118_Worldview__While_Gaza_roils__Egypt_has_issues_at_home.html

>>...new fighting in Gaza, as Israel retaliates for a wave of Hamas rocket attacks on its cities and towns, reveals the constraints on any efforts to radically change Egypt. It also shows why Egypt's peace treaty with Israel is likely to last.

In interviews with Brotherhood members, more orthodox Salafis, and opposition leaders during the week before the Gaza fighting began, it quickly became clear that the most pressing issue in Egypt is the economy....

"Ninety-nine percent of the people don't care about this discussion of the constitution," which is bogged down in a debate over sharia, said Mohamed ElBaradei, a key opposition leader and a former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency. "The people want work and health care, because the economy is stagnant."

ElBaradei said that when he recently visited Aswan, a major tourist destination, its top tourist hotel was only 1 to 2 percent occupied. "People were only talking about jobs, jobs, jobs," he said.

Egypt's new elected president, longtime Muslim Brotherhood member Mohamed Morsi, understands this huge economic challenge, as does the Brotherhood's political front, the Freedom and Justice Party (FJP). Morsi knows he and his party will be judged by whether they can provide jobs and improve ordinary Egyptians' standard of living.

To do that, they desperately need help from global agencies as well as direct foreign investment. Morsi knows Egypt can't afford to scare off investors and tourists, and it most certainly can't afford to fight another war.

That's why, although Morsi recalled his ambassador to Israel over its air strikes on Gaza and sent his prime minister to Gaza City, he has not threatened to provide military aid to Hamas or take direct action against Israel.>>

Many Palestinian groupies are counting on Egyptian support for Hamas. They are likely to be disappointed. If anything Morsi seems desperate to pressure Hamas into a ceasefire.

Imajulianutter:

It sounds like you are claiming that, following the Arab Spring (which does seem to be turning into winter), Arab countries now have a democracy, where elected representatives govern for the good of all citizens. This is native in the extreme. Do you think there is a democracy in Egypt? Maybe you should tell that to the Christian Copts. Do you think there is a democracy in Gaza? Tell that to the persecuted ex-members of the PA. Is there a democracy in Lebanon? What happens if Assad or Hezbollah don't like the prime minister? Democracy in the Palestinian West Bank? When was the last election there? Democracy in Syria? Jordan? Iran? Sudan? How are women treated in Muslim countries in the Middle East? How about homosexuals? Or any non-Muslims?

Even in countries recently “liberated” from their autocratic rulers, such as Tunisia, Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan, are you claiming the ‘democracy’ they are experiencing is equivalent to that of Australia, the US or Israel? If you are, then you are delusional. You seem to be blinded by left-wing liberal ideology and have no real understanding of Middle East, or any politics whatsoever.

imajulianutter,

Let's be specific here. I am going to answer the questions you have asked.

1, Q: "How does being a muslim blind one's judgement and cause an inability to see reality?"

A: how about: "blow yourself up and enter paradise immediately and live with 72 WHITE eternal virgins forever!"

2, "After all you do seem to think Israel is a democracy."

A: well, do tell! You must know what we don't. Please tell us what Israel is.

3, "You're indulging in hate speech."

A: mate, have you ever read a hate speech before?

4, "That you call me a liar says more about you..."

A: have you read my post with due intelligence? go back and read it again.

I am no psychiatrist, but I do feel you need help from professionals. I give up on you.

Dearest Peng,

It is truely sad you give up. It is only a sign of an inability on your part to oipen up your mind and see past the propaganda with which you have been brainwashed.

none of your statements go to the issues you initially raised.

'how do you see how my beliefs impact in the forming of my opinions? How are they causing delusions?

How does being a muslim blind one's judgement and cause an inability to see reality?'

Your answers only show your continual vilification of those who don't share your vengful nature and beliefs.

Most cultures and especially religions share a belief in rewards for martyrdoom.

Christians believe also it is an 'inside run' to Paradise... where they will bask in the glory of their Christian God. Indeed the Hebrews, who reflect your belief in vengence, believed their martyrdom would be rewarded by the vengence of a greater power. Why don't you vilify those beliefs ... equally?

Israel is an Apartheid type regime which has a constitution and laws that discriminates against it's minorities.

Your expressed views here constitute hate speech under our laws. Fortunately for you I don't believe in censorship and prefer to rely on reasoned argument and ridicule to overcome your sort of hateful nonsense.

Oh I recall your slimey description of me as a liar. It's manner was just annother example your usual cowardly way of doing things.

You really are a prime example of the results of Israeli indoctrination, a really great piece of work.

lol

Have any of you watched the dead children being pulled from the rubble of their Gaza homes? The limbs of dead children just flop everywhere as if they were puppets without strings.

It is a terrible sight but the Israelis skite instead about carrying out more than 1,000 attacks on Gaza which have killed 75, at least half of them civilians and kids. Israel has lost 3.

Meanwhile, folk on this forum argue and bicker and exchange insults.

Where is your humanity? Why is no one speaking out against Israeli genocide?

One family lost 12 people including 4 women and 4 kids!

@DavidG I agree with you. Some of us do try to raise a voice of reason. As you noted, the response from the Zionist corner is a barrage of insults and misinformation. It is also extraordinarily difficult to get our politicians to express their outrage at the carnage being wrought by the Israeli military. Our sorry apology for a human being that is the current PM just parrots the propaganda out of Tel Aviv. I cannot decide whether she is willfully blind, stupid or so in hock to the Zionists that she is incapable of expressing the humanity and concern you seek.

Imajulianutter:

“Christians believe also it is an 'inside run' to Paradise… the Hebrews… believed their martyrdom would be rewarded by the vengence of a greater power”

The difference is that nowadays Christians and Jews do not generally act on this belief and have not done so for centuries. Muslim extremists today employ tactics such as suicide bombings aimed of killing as many infidels as possible in order to get to the promised afterlife. When was the last time you saw a Christian or a Jew blow themselves up with the aim of killing infidel civilians?

“Israel is an Apartheid type regime which has a constitution and laws that discriminates against it's minorities”

Do you actually know what apartheid means? I suggest you look it up - Wikipedia could be a good start. Can Israeli Arabs live in the same neighbourhoods as Israeli Jews? Can they go to the same shopping centres? Can they use the same public transport? Can they go to the same universities? Can they practice the same professions? Can they get themselves elected to parliament? The answer to all these questions is a resounding YES. Can you tell us what you are basing your apartheid allegation on?

AVW,

of course you are joking.

Firstly martyrdon does not necessarily take the form of suicide. It can take the form of undergoing death in any circumstance for the perceived benefit of a cause or belief.

Which martyrdom option would you take?

1. Inflict as much harm as you can to your enemy as you undergo death.

2. Die without acting but wishing vengence upon your killers by claiming your god will take the appropriate vengence.

3. Die while forgiving your killers and asking your God to forgive them?

I can think of any number of reasons for thinking all options are all equally insane ... In any sensible universe I know you'd agree.

Some muslims, some christians and some jewish people would take at least one of those options. Why do you vilify members of just one group who act upon their belief? Because it uses immediate violence? Do you believe a wish for God's vengence would be for God's vengence to be non-violent.

That's as silly

Christiandom and Judaeism are full of accounts of their particular choices.

Both their respective modern political and legal systems are built on the basis of those choices.

Both choices inflict immense harm on entire populations. The Christian choice usually harms themselves.
The Hebrew choice initially harms others and will usually lead to their victims enacting similar vengence. It merely spirals. As is evident in the mid east tonight.

Apartheid
Are any non Jewish religious beliefs included in the basis of Israeli law? The Israeli Constitution specifies Israel's Laws will be based on it's Judean Heritage.


There are any number of Israeli actions that reflect that bias, from illegal occupations to restrictions on movement. Those usual things that are barred under the usual international conventions, that are always applied in Western Liberal Democracies. These are never ever ratified by apartheid regimes.

David G

It is all very well expressing humanity. But that achieves absolutely no result except making those closest to those slain a little easier to bear.

My debate is centered upon changing the opinions of those who support systems which promote hate through the acceptance of vengence as reasonable behaviour.

You know if the violence of Hamas and Hezbollah could have been irradicated by the killing of their leaders, destruction of a city's infructure, blockades and terorizing innocents it should have worked by now.

How many time have we seen the Israeli's wreak vengence upon their tormentors only to see them replenish their leaderships and ranks, re-build their cities, stockpile and launch more and longer range missles and keep the support of their populations. And in the process actually get democratically elected in a fair election?

What's that definition of madness?

Do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

However there has been a change in the situation.

It is astonishing to see the Western Liberal Democracies lining up, from Obama down, in support of the democratically elected Egyptian President, the Muslim Brotherhood's, Morsi's endeavour to broker a peace and a change of attitude from both sides.

Now they are two very great and significant changes.

Well well who'd have ever thought Egypt a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' member of the Arab world calling on both sides to be peaceful... and supported by all the worlds great democracies.

lol

Imajulianutter wrote:

>>It is astonishing to see the Western Liberal Democracies lining up, from Obama down, in support of the democratically elected Egyptian President, the Muslim Brotherhood's, Morsi's endeavour to broker a peace and a change of attitude from both sides.

Now they are two very great and significant changes.

Well well who'd have ever thought Egypt a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' member of the Arab world calling on both sides to be peaceful... and supported by all the worlds great democracies.>>

Well, yes.

Mostly Morsi seems intent on getting Hamas and Islamic Jihad to calm down so that he can get on with building-up the Egyptian economy.

If Morsi can stop the rockets it's a win-win for all parties – especially Israel.

--Morsi emerges as the great peacemaker but now has his personal prestige invested in ensuring the peace is actually kept.

--Israel – especially Southern Israel – is spared its daily dose of rockets.

--The Palestinians in Gaza maybe, just maybe, can be persuaded to develop their economy and live a better life. Given its situation Gaza could become the Hong Kong of the Mediterranean.

--And if you believe the Israelis are evil monsters intent on forcing the Gazans into the sea and have had their plans thwarted by Morsi you are welcome to enjoy your delusions. Neither the Israelis spared the rocket threat nor I care in the least.

Truly win-win

We can but hope Morsi succeeds.

@imajulianutter. I would not place to much weight on anything Obama says in support of Morsi. Both US houses have unanimously passed resolutions in support of Israel's current offensive. The Americans continue to arm and finance the Israelis. The US recently blocked, again, a resolution in the Secujrity Council condemning Israel's latest aggression. As long as Israel has American support they will not change their policies one iota. One of their ministers said a day or so ago that the aim was to return Gaza to the Middle Ages.

I agree with your definition of madness with a caveat. Israel pursues policies that are arguably insane but they keep repeating them because they continue to have the support of the US, Australia etc. just as a child will behave badly if they are never corrected so too will Israel continue. We shouldn't be surprised. Their goal of a Greater Israel has been openly expressed. It so only a matter of time before they try again to steal the water of the Litani river. A former colleague at the university of Bergen told me 40 years ago that there would never be peace in the Middle East as long as there was a Zionist state occupying Palestine. Time is proving him correct. I agree with Alan Hart's analysis that Zionism is the real enemy of the Jews. The distinction is unfortunately lost on most of the apologists above.

Let me clear something up here.

A ceasefire brokered by a Muslim Brotherhood president of Egypt that actually stopped the rockets would be a massive win for Israel generally and for Netanyahu particularly.

Only conspiracy theorists like James O'Neill or someone like David G* would think otherwise.

The fact that Morsi was forced to put his personal prestige on the line would be an added bonus. It would signal that Morsi was more interested in building the Egyptian economy than in getting entangled in a war with Israel.

And it would also indicate that a Muslim Brotherhood president was prepared to work with Israel.

Far from being some sort of defeat a Morsi brokered cease-fire that obviated the necessity of an incursion into Gaza is an outcome fervently to be desired. Most of the Israeli public would love it. it would practically guarantee Netanyahu's re-election with increased seats for Likud.

*On 25 August 2012 8:27:36 AM David G wrote:

"If there has been hatred of Jews over centuries then there must be some reason for this which must have something to do with Jews themselves"

This sort of statement speaks for itself

See: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14025&page=0

@Stevenlmeyer. "Only conspiracy theorists like James O'Neill.........". You are sounding like a stuck record. It no doubt gives you some kind of vicarious thrill to trot out this tired substitute for rational debate but to most of us it is simply mindless. I have yet to advance a single conspiracy theory on this site that is not founded on solid evidence. If you can't come up with something better a periods of silence from you would be welcome.

Imajulianutter:

“Why do you vilify members of just one group who act upon their belief?”

I do not vilify one group. I am stating the obvious. Nowadays Christians and Jews do not generally employ tactics such as suicide bombings to kill and maim as many infidel civilians as possible. This is the exclusive domain of Muslim extremists.

“The Christian choice usually harms themselves. The Hebrew choice initially harms others and will usually lead to their victims enacting similar vengeance”

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. Who are those Christians that usually harm themselves and why would they do so? What Hebrews/Jews harm others and why? Is this in order to become martyrs? Please be a little more specific.

“The Israeli Constitution specifies Israel's Laws will be based on it's Judean Heritage. “

This is the second or third time you’ve referred to the Israeli Constitution with respect to apartheid. I would dearly love to see those racist, apartheid references in the Israeli Constitution, or any other reference for that matter. Your claim only shows how hollow your argument is, being nothing more than parroting extreme-left slogans without bothering to check their accuracy. As far as I am aware Israel has no formal constitution, but maybe you know something that I don’t. Please state the link to where I can read about this awful document and its apartheid references.

Let’s assume for a moment that you manage to find the lost Israeli Constitution, and it is indeed based on the Judean Heritage. So? Let me share a little secret with you: the laws in most Western societies are based on the Judeo-Christian Heritage as well. And, wait for it, the laws in Muslim countries are based on Muslim Heritage. So where does this leave us? There are two possibilities: 1) everyone is exercising a form of apartheid, or 2) you do not understand the meaning of the term Apartheid.

not sure if its funny or sad
but what you said about extreemists not gaining footing..outside israel..is egsactly the oppisite of whats going on within israel.

its time for an israel spring..
but this seems unlikely..or so likely the extreemists are having their last shot.[one can hope]

anyhow we notice the embedding of western media
as much as we note the priority to shut down opposing media..enbedded in the war zone..but lest we forget the exumation of arrafat..poisend by an unexplained elevated amount of unsupported polonium-210*..

as reported
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/whatkilledarafat/2012/07/20127383653774794.html

THE TIMMING of this latest war..cleverly aborts the intended exumation to further confirm..the assaniation by sources unknown*..but presumable as is the timming of this

anyhow..look at the timming
http://www.euronews.com/2012/11/13/was-arafat-poisoned-his-grave-is-sealed-off-ahead-of-exhumation/

lest we forget that israel has imprisond many thousands
and will not stop at blackmail to murder..so who dun it will be a patcy..and likely was the first killed in this latest extention of israel suicide.

avw seems to miss completly obama's mass murder via drones.
quote]avw..""Nowadays Christians and Jews do not generally employ tactics such as suicide bombings to kill and maim as many infidel civilians as possible."
\
but lest we forget to note..if mossad got total control over your family..or got your brother/father in jail..with threats most will strap on the belt..for love of other..

or we fiond that retards..are used as well
but mostly its fear..killing the self is stupid..but israel seems intent on it...we forget the evil is really capaple of doing any vile it wants.

hence todays reading to sacrifice our fears for peace
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3337&start=45

no one has clean hands..this nudge helped encourage the current outrage
http://refreshingnews99.blogspot.in/2012/11/britain-training-rebels-to-assassinate.html

lest we forget betrayus
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2012/11/12/geopolitics-with-ryan-dawson-episode-1-the-embarrassing-petraeus-scandal-with-jason-ditz/

recall sarahs father?
http://www.businessinsider.com/paula-broadwell-father-paul-krantz-2012-11

here is where the zionist thing *first bore its ill fruits
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/holodomor-the-ukrainian-holocaust-of-1933/

war is hell..god must feel so proud..not!
re those kiling the lives..only he can make to live.

its a shame you ignore the words of the true messiah
love god by loving service [charity]..to other..

STOP THE FEAR*

Why are you blokes so slow. You took my comment as serious

You didn't get the irony.

You'll never ever agree with me that Israel cannot now claim to be surrounded by a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' Arab world.

You simply criticised Morsi's efforts and refused to see he didn't criticise anyone. You also criticised the leader of the Western world for supporting peace efforts. As you blokes always do. Why is that. Mention peace and you blokes go into a lather of criticism.

Of course you understand the longterm effect if Morsi is successful.

Israel will be force to resolve all the outstanding territorial and refugees issues.

And Morsi, with the support of the Western Nations, will be central to that ... not the Americans. H

The situation is fundamentally changed and I don't think Israel has realised how. You blokes certainly haven't and I expect you to go about trying to undermine the peace process, as you always do, by trying to undermine the prestige Morsi has won. It's all Israel and you will be able to do.

Will Israel rise to the new challenges or remain mired in vengence?

Morsi behaves like a true peace maker concentrating on resolution not blame. He didn't look for ulterior motives nor exhibited any.

He's acting like a Westerner, something you blokes struggle to comprehend.

Let me restate. We westerners base our culture in forgiveness.

Israel bases it's culture in it's religion which promotes vengence.

You blokes need to call for a reformation of the Jewish religion if you really want Israel to act as Western Liberal Democracies and be regarded as Western.

@avw & iamajulianutter. It is technically correct that Israel has no constitution in the sense of a single written document labelled as such. However, Israel does have a series of what are termed Basic Laws. In 1998 the Isreali Supreme Court ruled that the Basic Laws should be considered as the state's constitution and that is the present position.

The Basic Laws do say that all Israeli citizens are equal, regardless of whether they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druze or whatever. There is of course a distinction between de jure equality and de facto equality. Just ask a black person in the US.

In Israel's case there is discrimination in favor of the Jewish religion, both in the law and in policy; eg. The right of Jewish people to enter Israel and live there.

At present the Arab population of Israel is about 20pc of the total. There are policies both proposed and in place to try and limit the growth of that religious group, with some, such as deputy pm Lieberman openly advocating discriminatory policies and suggesting, inter Alia, a land swap to move Arab Israelis out of Israel proper to Palestinian enclaves.

There is good evidence that Israel is following a policy of Bantustans, and those familiar with apartheid era South Africa will understand the implications of that.

One under god:

“avw seems to miss completly obama's mass murder via drones”

Now I'm really confused. How exactly do the US drones relate to some mythical Christians or Jews who like to blow themselves up in order to become martyrs?

“if mossad got total control over your family..or got your brother/father in jail..with threats most will strap on the belt..for love of other”

Ignoring your personal, unsubstantiated allegation about the Mossad, I can still recall the ruthless KGB in the Soviet Union, terrorising its citizens for decades. However I do not recall any Russians “strapping on the belt” and blowing themselves up. How about any other ruthless dictatorial regimes during the 20th century? Nazi Germany? No. Fascist Italy? No. Sorry.

“.killing the self is stupid..but israel seems intent on it”

Why are all those Israelis killing themselves? How many do this in an average year? How do the Israelis cover up this mass suicide from the media? Shouldn’t Hamas just wait patiently until all Israelis have killed themselves?

imajulianutter

“You'll never ever agree with me that Israel cannot now claim to be surrounded by a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' Arab world.”

That’s because they CAN claim it. You completely ignore the facts presented to you earlier that actually – yes, Israel is surrounded by a tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist Arab world. In your opinion this is not the case – fine, but the overwhelming evidence points to the contrary. But wait, was this a serious comment on your part or not? I can’t really tell.

“Israel bases it's culture in it's religion which promotes vengence”

It seems you are confusing Israel with Hamas. The Israeli responses are an attempt to stop the rockets from being fired at Israeli civilians, it has nothing to do with any religious obsession. The rockets, on the other hand, are fired by a bunch of religious fanatics who cannot wait to kill themselves and reach the afterlife. Let me share with you an informative clip I’ve already posted on another thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_5y3GKudcg&feature=player_detailpage

The clear, unmistakable message from Hamas is.”We Miss the Cuicide Bombings”.

AWV,

There's no formal Constitutional document but an 'uncodified Constitution'.
It's called the Basic Laws and case precedent.

The issue centres on intreperation of the words 'Jewish' and 'Israeli' Values and 'Jewish and Democratic' .

Intreprertations of these words lead to a favouring of Jewish Israelis over non-Jewish Israelis.

That's apartheid.

Here are some citations ... with appropriate questions.

'Establishes the status of Jerusalem ... deals with holy places; secures rights of members of all religions; grants special preference with regards to development.

Now what will be the intrepretation in relation to the Dome of the Rock?

'Defines human freedom as right to leave and enter the country, ... and protection from unlawful searches of one's person or property.'

Does this apply to refugees who leave ... temporarily?
Before you say former residents are't Israeli because they left prior to the Declaration just remember it was a stated requirement by the UN a constitution was required to be formulated before Declaration and was to accommodate non-Jewish Israelis and their traditions. Consider your position before before you rush in favouring the Israeli Jews.

'Guarantees every Israel national or resident's "right to engage in any occupation, ...". Any violation of this right shall be "by a law befitting the values of the State of Israel, enacted for a proper purpose, and to an extent no greater than is required."'

Hhmmm who decides 'violation', 'the values of Israel' and the 'extent required'?

'Upholds constitutional and legal basis for the operation of the Israel Defense Forces ... no extra-legal armed force outside the Israel Defense Forces may be set up or maintained.

Is it applied to ' armed settler groups'?

'Regulates payments made by and to the State...'

Does this include the taxes collected by Israel in the Non-Jewish occupied territories?

These 'laws' can only be intreperted to foster preference to Jewish Israelis.

Nowhere in this constitution is there any attempt to promote and protect the rights of minority groups.

We in the Western Liberal Democracies make a point of trying to inculde our minorities and accommodate their traditions. Why doesn't Israel?

'That’s because they CAN claim it'

That doesn't make it true.

Why don't you try an actual argument.

'the facts presented to you earlier that actually – yes, Israel is surrounded by a tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist Arab world.'

What are your facts that take account of current political events and current realities? Situations can change ... you know. lol (humour)

'Judeo-Christian Heritage' please explain in detail how that works.
Western Liberal Democracies don't have Laws based on vengence such as the traditional Jewish belief in 'an eye for an eye' (Vengence writ large). In fact it is completely the reverse of our laws which are based in the Hebrew Christ's teachings re forgiveness and turning the other cheek.

Muslim countries don't claim to be Western Liberal Democracies nor claim to share their values.

'I do not vilify one group. I am stating the obvious'
You are and you aren't. lol (More Humour)

'Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.'
I know ... but try. lol ( even more humour)

Imajulianutter:

“There's no formal Constitutional document…”

Great, now we are getting somewhere. We have finally established that the awful, racist, discriminatory Israeli Constitution doesn’t actually exist. Unfortunately that means your previous argument,

“The Israeli Constitution specifies Israel's Laws will be based on it's Judean Heritage”

Has just gone up in smoke.

“Intreprertations of these words lead to a favouring of Jewish Israelis over non-Jewish Israelis. That's apartheid”

No it isn’t. Please study the meaning of the term Apartheid before using it so liberally.

“...deals with holy places; secures rights of members of all religions…”
“Now what will be the intrepretation in relation to the Dome of the Rock?”

The Dome of the Rock is managed by the Ministry of Religion in Amman, Jordan. It’s a Muslim country, in case you are wondering. A better example of apartheid might be the Western Wall during Jordan's occupation in 1948-1967, when Jews were not allowed to enter, let alone manage their holy places.

“Hhmmm who decides 'violation', 'the values of Israel' and the 'extent required'?”

The courts. This is how it's normally done in Western Liberal Democracies that you seem to be so passionate about. Israeli and Palestinian Arabs can take the government to court.

“What are your facts that take account of current political events and current realities?”

I have already explained that to you earlier, please go back and read it in detail. Nothing has really changed in the countries and territories surrounding Israel, with the exception of Syria, where things turned much worse. ‘Situation can change’, I know, but so far it hasn’t.

“Western Liberal Democracies don't have Laws based on vengeance”

Same as in Israel, but unlike some of the Muslim Arab countries where it is still customary to cut off a thief’s hand, or kill members of a rival family in the name of vengeance.

“In fact it is completely the reverse of our laws which are based in the Hebrew Christ's teachings re forgiveness and turning the other cheek”

What on earth are you talking about? Which of our laws are based on ‘turning the other cheek’?

avw..statements..via generalisations will allways be de-bait-able
obama as far as he claims..is christian..but his murder by drones..[by generalisation..is the same as any nutter..be the arab..or state..self emoliating.

ditto uk[the state..teaching how to murder..[
lest_we_forget..carbomb's was..*taught via irish bombing london...

but..its allways individuals..not generalisation.

we must recall..that the dictraiter arabs..have all been taught..by the state..and its all trurned out predicably bad..[war-aid..is not a thing advocated..by christian..nor muslim..nor jew messenger's..

although it may be infered..in some of their words[jesus saying grabbing..the sword..and mahamoud..by redefining priorities [qualities of jihad..and as for the jews..seizing 'the holy land'..under some god gifted..lol..right.

my point is..ts easier to murder/destroy/plunder..than build
and war mongering..of itself reveals a weak fearfilled state of mind

in short..my starting place is..no_one..has clean*hands...
so that direction..is name calling..or sorting by minutia..THAT wont unite us..only divide us..*eternally.

its much the same
re stazie/ss/mossad..etc..terror is not limited..to classifying it simply..strapping on 'a belt'..thats the evolution..but why fixate on that...demonic fear.

when i say israel suicide..i talk of the state
you may..or may not be aware much..the state claims/as histry..isnt being confirmed..in the ground..[like the walls of jerrico..happend long before the children of moses..people left the desert.

[noting only the young emerged to get to the ..'promised land'..[all unsircumscribed....but of course these inconveniant reveals..reveal only we ..*stand on weak foundations...

and so what..if you got great mess-angers..its the fruits of their message..that we face today

for egsample the talmud perversions
http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
quotations;from the Soncino Edition ..the Talmud,(Book)

''YEBAMOTH,60b...Rabbi.Ramanos who conducted an inquiry..and..'found'..in it..the daughter of a..'proselyte'..
who was under the age of three years..lol..and one day...,and Rabbi declared her..>>eligible to live>>with a priest."

(footnotes)"..A proselyte..under the age of three years
and one day..may be married by a priest...And was married..to a priest.

(i.e.,permitted to continue to live with her'husband'."]

(Book)

SANHEDRIN,..55b-55a:.."What is meant by this?...Rab said:..Pederasty with a child below nine years of age..is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that.

(footnotes)"..The reference is to..the passive..
'subject'/victim''..of sodomy''....STOP*

>>>its the little perversions
that subvert the origonal mess/age...

its sad..but thats just how it is..thus
WE MUST find..our own truth..

see how things are allways needing to be tested..but sorting the good from the vile..isnt easy..so many will chose to follow..not lead

im treminded of this by words from the messiah hyimself
as conveyted by a jew [in a course of miracles..which im letting guide me..till the 7 th of december..the point of no return[for me]

anyhow i comment on the lessons as they appear
todays lesson reads

http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3412&sid=9f1f743d950cb17ccd84c56804614220

[quote="GeneHrsy"][b]I merely follow,
for I would not lead.[/b]

and this i deecided long ago
there will allways be more clever than i[heck i see it in you..but like all men i have put faith in..they all just follwing others

so lets read the rest of todays teaching
from jesus himself..via chanle..[see acim.]

[i]Father, You are the One..Who gave the plan for my salvation to me.

You have set the way..I am to go,..the role to take,
and every step in my appointed path...

I cannot lose the way.

I can but choose to wander off..a while,and then return.
Your loving Voice will always call me back,..and guide my feet aright.

My brothers all can follow..in the way I lead them...Yet I merely follow in the way to You,..as You direct me and would have me go.[/i]

So let us follow One Who knows the way.""

ie the messiah..we all deney*
even his own

..""We need not tarry,
and we cannot stray..except an instant..from His loving Hand.

We walk together,..for we follow Him.
And it is He..Who makes the ending sure,..and guarantees a safe returning home.[/quote]...

FOR ALL OF US*

we all..have a choice.
you have a choice too.

i only quote others words
my trick is sorting vthings..i figure if its of god..its good
that not good is deeceite of men...and war aint good.

'“There's no formal Constitutional document…”

Great, now we are getting somewhere. We have finally established that the awful, racist, discriminatory Israeli Constitution doesn’t actually exist.'

There you go again ... being selective ... like a good little Israeli propagandist.

Didn't you understand the bit that followed?

"but an 'uncodified Constitution'. It's called the Basic Laws and case precedent."

I won't get into your 'Yes it is not it isn't' kiddies arguing.

I've presented rational and logical arguments supporting my opinions.

You haven't. You say 'no no no' without any evidence.

You still support the clearly disproven and now unsubstantiated claim Israel is surrounded by an hostile Arab world full of 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist forces'.

It appears impossible to open up your mind.

As to the questions I asked in relation to the Constitutional Laws you've only answered two. One using Jordan as an obfuscation and the other the utterly wrong 'the courts'. It is the Knesset which determines those things, the courts merely intrepret and enforce the Knesset's legislation...as is done in all Democracies. Parliamentary Legislation is paramount.

Again you've been the highly selective Israeli propagandist.

Why are you so slow?

Once again Western Liberal Democracies have Laws based on the Christian traditions.
As stated in the Israeli constitution Israel's law are based on Jewish traditions.

We prefer Ghrist's heritage of 'do unto others' and 'turn the other cheek'.
Israel prefers the Jewish Tradition of 'an eye for an eye'.
Instead of denying that why don't you push for a reformation of Jewish religious traditions.

We did with the Christian traditions ... got rid of the stupidities ... and have advanced magnificently without being continually dogged by wars of vengence and hate.

there comes the time facts reveal the truth has become perverted
then we either weed out the lies..or go the slow decline

its that authority..can redefine things
to suit their own adgenda..

with judism..its the pervesrsion of the talmud
[law in darkplaces..see previous post..for..egsample.

this type goes into the wilderness..with a funny rulebook
takes others lands children/steals others shalom/peace

The Babylonian Talmud;edited by Rabbi Dr. Isidore Epstein; of Jews’ College, London..More than fifteen years in the making,more than 5 1/2 million words,this monumental task of scholarship called on the best brains in Judaism and won the approval of the world's top rabbis.

Yet few Christians today even know it exists,
and you will,not find it in your local public library
http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/

anyhow thats one seal
lets go the other..

the current war provocations..began in a sporting ovel

This is what started the violence. Shooting a 13 yearold child who is playing soccer..from a helicopter is a brutal and inhumane act...It was clearly intended to provoke a reaction by the Palestinians,..who react to the murder of their children in exactly the same way you would.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/08/world/meast/gaza-violence/index.html

thus who broke the peace is clear
as are the many missdirections..and obvious lies
http://www.debka.com/article/22541/Iranian-arms-ship-carries-fresh-improved-Fajar-supplies-for-Gaza

but as much as i personally hate watching sport
why attack sport..moral
http://www.zcommunications.org/killing-hope-why-israel-targets-sports-in-gaza-by-dave-zirin

then the shortsighted asasination
of the leader ready willing to sign for peace
http://tipggita32.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/israels-shortsighted-assassination-hamas-al-jabari-was-working-to-prevent-rocket-attacks/

as much as the fear mongering from the skies[same/same
leave or you die
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162309#.UKuuVmez5nA

israel depends on war to survive
selling the nessisities to murder..god would be so proud..not*
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.fr/2012/11/israel-cannot-survive-in-peace-reliant.html

is a huge lol..The Iranian leadership is many things,
but one thing it is not is stupid enough to give the Israeli government..its causus belli to attack Iran.

And where the hell does this ship..unload its cargo..in order to get it to Gaza?..but such is the spin...and fear based spin..has its ways to become sin.

jesus weeps...you wont see peace anytime soon..
just more pieces.[israel needs a 'spring'..

but heck here is 5 more lies
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/omar-baddar/5-lies-the-media-keeps-re_b_2160239.html

we recall john bolt-on..thinking lol iran has israel encircled
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/gaza-israel-palestinians-hamas/2012/11/20/id/464847
so lets look at iran..is this encircled?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/USbasesneariran.jpg

its the dumb lies
http://rt.com/news/un-hamas-idf-video-166/
known knowns
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora/when-israel-says-it-doesnt-target-journalists-it-lying

yes minester
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-s-government-has-quietly-doubled-funding-for-settlements-says-finance-minister-1.477204

and yes no side is innocent
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=540144

yes people know..but
http://www.bicc.de/fileadmin/Dateien/pdf/press/2012/Global%20Militarization%20Index%202012%20Fact%20Sheet_e.pdf

no one dares vieuw the proper gander
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NMr2VrhmFI&feature=youtu.be

there is no peace progran..thats the red herring
http://www.alternet.org/top-10-myths-about-israels-attack-gaza

so what if us looses face
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/11/20/273563/us-losing-regional-allies-over-israel/

live stream
http://www.ustream.tv/occupiedair

yep its time for the israel spring*
or its karma
http://youtu.be/ccP16Wdekig

OUG

Out of curiosity

How many readers do you think click on all those links you scatter about the place?

How many people click on any of them?

Just wondering :-)

steven..as usual no refutal of the links
just the way the mess age was de,liverd

as if i care a flick what others do
i can only post them..try to bring an end to the need to post them.

i dont post them for you..i post them for me
so when the doodoo hits the fan..its not cause i stood mute and did nuthin.

you will be happy to note that from 7 dec you can do as you like
cause i will be doing what i like..but not on line..so be happy..suck it up boy..

a few more days..you can post all the lies you wish..unrefuted...by me.

so dont worry be happy...
my time in hell is done...yourn however may only just by then..have begun..

just 4u/steve

Has anything changed?

“To hit them...Not just one blow,
but blows..that are so painful..that the price will be too heavy to be borne.

The price is not too heavy to be borne,..now.[2010]

A broad attack on the Palestinian Authority...To bring them to the point of being afraid that everything is collapsing…"

"80% of the Americans support us."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25961.htm

Rense & Texe Marrs - Israeli Massacre In Palestine
Nov 20, 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISqa0FVGGd0&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FmFSWMBWb7Q#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrlP3RlG0qA

Looks like this one may go viral....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akN_2kWZXnU

take the boys toys away from them
children shouldnt play with guns.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/dangertopeace.php

nutty yahoo's 2001 prophecy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rRBb6L2eY40

war crime?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra3ENTFeF-4
war crimes?
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/israel-must-be-tried-for-war-crimes-over-gaza-1.1107712?

proxey wars?
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rudy-giuliani-on-violence-in-gaza-without-a-doubt-a-proxy-war-by-iran/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+mediaite%2FClHj+%28Mediaite%29

yep white phospherous[again
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/gazaunderattack-breaking-white-phosphorus-used-on-gaza/

pilliar of hypocrazey
http://xrepublic.tv/node/109

DESIGNED TO SHOCK/awe..by who?
http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/11/israel-perpetrator-or-self-proclaimed-victim/?

more morals of war..
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-hijacks-palestinian-tv-channel-propaganda-depicting-hamas-leaders-rats



the claim..that the anti-war protesters..in Israel represent a minority.
Look how tight the camera is on this.."rent a ruckus"*pro-war/crowd, a tactic media use..to conceal the size of the crowd..when it is too small.

a staged event to support Netanyahu.
But their expressed sentiments..open a window..into the mindset of Netanyahu..and his followers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=iPWi6x8HshM
translation..has been confirmed as..accurate.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/J-wish%20Ritual%20Murder%20%20A%20burnt%20Palestinian%20infant%20taking%20her%20last%20breath%20%20WARNING,%20GRAPHIC!%20-%20YouTube.flv

boycotting..is better than this...

newsweak's..most influential rabbi*..says
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/21/prominent-american-rabbi-slams-latuff-as-almost-worse-than-anti-semitic/

Israel’s Shortsighted/Assassination

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html


learn firsthand that Mr. Jabari..wasn’t just interested in a long-term cease-fire;he was also the person..responsible for enforcing previous cease-fire/understandings..brokered by the Egyptian intelligence agency.

Mr.Jabari..*enforced those cease-fires..only after confirming that Israel was prepared to stop..lol..its attacks on Gaza.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html

On the morning..he was killed,Mr.Jabari received
a draft proposal..for an extended cease-fire with Israel,..including mechanisms that would verify intentions..*and ensure compliance.

this draft was agreed upon ..next thing he is dead

The goal was!..to move beyond..the patterns of the past.
we now know..its just classic redirection

proof..nuthing changes..but the faces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThO_1L5oDEU

https://vimeo.com/54031923
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9obbRoJQ4BM

lest we forget
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-j3iQeE06c&feature=related

Posted by one under god, Thursday, 22 November 2012 6:50:47 AM


or fail to remember
why the ceasefire wont work
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/11/20/israeli-fm-scolds-un-chief-for-arguing-against-invasion-of-gaza/
http://original.antiwar.com/porter/2012/11/20/news-media-misled-by-iaea-data-on-sensitive-iranian-stockpile/

fake bombs
http://www.timesofisrael.com/fake-bomb-discovered-on-jerusalem-light-rail/

the dummies guide to the middle east machinations[histry]
http://www.tomatobubble.com/middle_east.html

http://beforeitsnews.com/middle-east/2012/11/evidence-that-operation-pillar-of-cloud-was-with-washingtons-close-liaison-senior-us-military-officials-were-in-israel-with-idf-counterparts-before-gaza-attack-2446046.htm

oug wrote:

>>you will be happy to note that from 7 dec you can do as you like
cause i will be doing what i like..but not on line..so be happy..suck it up boy..>>

LOL

Again out of curiosity what happens on Dec 7? Other than the 71st anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbour?

For the rest.

So Morsi, the Islamist president of Egypt who never wanted to talk to Israel is now Israel's de facto guarantor of peace. He has had to put his personal prestige on the line and go against the wishes of many of his Islamist supporters.

Netanyahu has thoroughly wedged him as Begin did with Sadat in the 1970s

The opening of border crossings, including the Rafah, crossing means that Gaza will increasingly become Egypt's problem.

If the ceasefire holds this is a big win for Israel and Netanyahu tho' I expect the usual gang of Israel-haters will try and spin it into a Hamas victory.

As Fareed Zakaria writes in today's Washington Post:

Israel dominates the new Middle East

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-israel-dominates-the-middle-east/2012/11/21/d310dc7c-3428-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html

Excerpt:

>>These are the realities of the Middle East today. ISRAEL’S ASTONISHING ECONOMIC GROWTH, its technological prowess, its military preparedness and its tight relationship with the United States have set it a league apart from its Arab adversaries. Peace between the Palestinians and Israelis will come only when Israel decides that it wants to make peace. Wise Israeli politicians, from Ariel Sharon to Ehud Olmert to Ehud Barak, have wanted to take risks to make that peace because they have worried about Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state. This is what is in danger, not Israel’s existence.>>

(My capitalisation)

All in all a promising day for Israel.

A giant step towards middle eastern peave.

Istael has agreed to lift the blockade of Gaza and to stop killing Palestinian Governmet and Hamas Leaders.

And the Yanks went along with those conditions negotiated by the Egyptian Morsi.
Stunning victory for peave.

imajulianutter

I assume you mean "peace" not "peave"

What augurs well is that Morsi, the Islamist who said he would never talk to the "Zionist entity" has ended up as the guarantor of the peace. Not that the poor fellow had much choice given Egypt's terrible economic situation but, still, he decided to be sensible and deserves some credit for that.

Now will Hamas be able to deliver? Will they be able to stop Islamic Jihad from firing rockets? That will be interesting.

Personally I think Israel's destiny is to be a sort of Singapore of the Mediterranean. With peace that can be achieved.

nothing special re 7 december..its just that is when my web acces expires..[and at this stage i see no reason to renew acces to the www...as i feel people arnt here to share into nor learn..but only blog as their told and/or prevent others from changing things.

for egsample in the past i would have needed to know why you say..""Netanyahu has thoroughly wedged morsi'..but today its an issue i couldnt care less about

[any leader today..is wedged..,been bought/sold..
soldout to serve adgendas..of an elite..while at the same time fleecing the people.

even israel becomming the signapure..of the fringes of the middle east..only reminds me that our fuel is priced at parity..with signapoor crude price[consistantly much more that usa crude...

its a clever trick..where our cheap fuel is priced at signapoooer special blend price..cause that way they can fleece us more...

much like unions have betrayd us..and agreements with usa have doubled the price and duration of patent product..we are living in a cooperate hell..[where corperations have human rights..and the people just the cash cow..[witness the increase of meterd services..plus minimum acces fees/'service charges/bankfees..etc

all stuff we could have been takling about
but instead we wasted the years talking of the adgendas/distractions spins[like the recent..lated cast lead..or opperation pillary rage and plunder..the loud cloud gets the grease.

the media is bought sold..[as if sport is news]
todays media..adgenda is designed to destract..
buisiness designed to loot and plunder..and im sick of playing the dumb games..thats why...i have namecalled some great minds..because they added to the errors..not sought to fix..

yeah the game is rigged
so why put off the inevitable..
let evil do as it may..cause it allways has..

i thought i could help people find the good of god..instead i found the worse of men...and im sick of the games of greedy needy weedy men...

let god love em..
i cant..the game is rigged..cause ignorants think this game is all there is..

anyhow
all the best steven.

im noting france is supporting recognising palistein
yet australia adopts the stance of the lap dog alp caw-cuss.

no motion or debate in parlement
just the spin meisters running the alp..abstaining*
thats about all you can expect from the zion mouth piece..that pays lip service to..lol..two states..living side by side..yea right..

its pathetric..but the zionist controled media
wont allow its disscussion..nor the lap dogs of zion..in the alp lap dog caucus of the faceless..[as in loss of face]..SHAMED/BIASED/LIARS SPINMEISTERS..

that passes for governing class..yer refuses to allow australias 'vote]..lol abstention intention.. to be decided by the elected representatives only the elect...in a cawcuss..[lap dogs to the zionist abuse previously record..not in the house..lof the people.

we need an aussie spring..to clean up the lawyers running a grand scam on the litle guy..where steal two packs of biskets get taserd to death..

ripp off billions..get bailed out..pathetic..
too pathetic for words..how the media has sold us out..
feeding us yanki soap/gibberish and sports and opinion as news.

nuthin new..we lorded over by the few

read the writting on the wall juliar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L033M6wqNCI
http://www.activistpost.com/2012/11/supporters-of-israel-seek-to-ban-hamas.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9obbRoJQ4BM&feature=youtu.be
http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/zionist-bombing-in-jerusalem-1946/26637/
http://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollah-threatens-to-hit-central-israel-in-future-war/?
http://www.naturalnews.com/037249_GMO_study_cancer_tumors_organ_damage.html
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/may282011/gmo-not-food-cs.php
http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/brzezinski-populist-resistance-is-derailing-the-new-world-order-v
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2237823/Squeeze-worst-peacetime-century.html
http://12160.info/video/mother-faces-down-swat-team-tank-for-refusing-to-give-anti

OUG

Last few flurries of links before 7 December?

Oh well, have a nice life :-)