One under god:

“avw seems to miss completly obama's mass murder via drones”

Now I'm really confused. How exactly do the US drones relate to some mythical Christians or Jews who like to blow themselves up in order to become martyrs?

“if mossad got total control over your family..or got your brother/father in jail..with threats most will strap on the belt..for love of other”

Ignoring your personal, unsubstantiated allegation about the Mossad, I can still recall the ruthless KGB in the Soviet Union, terrorising its citizens for decades. However I do not recall any Russians “strapping on the belt” and blowing themselves up. How about any other ruthless dictatorial regimes during the 20th century? Nazi Germany? No. Fascist Italy? No. Sorry.

“.killing the self is stupid..but israel seems intent on it”

Why are all those Israelis killing themselves? How many do this in an average year? How do the Israelis cover up this mass suicide from the media? Shouldn’t Hamas just wait patiently until all Israelis have killed themselves?

imajulianutter

“You'll never ever agree with me that Israel cannot now claim to be surrounded by a 'tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist' Arab world.”

That’s because they CAN claim it. You completely ignore the facts presented to you earlier that actually – yes, Israel is surrounded by a tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist Arab world. In your opinion this is not the case – fine, but the overwhelming evidence points to the contrary. But wait, was this a serious comment on your part or not? I can’t really tell.

“Israel bases it's culture in it's religion which promotes vengence”

It seems you are confusing Israel with Hamas. The Israeli responses are an attempt to stop the rockets from being fired at Israeli civilians, it has nothing to do with any religious obsession. The rockets, on the other hand, are fired by a bunch of religious fanatics who cannot wait to kill themselves and reach the afterlife. Let me share with you an informative clip I’ve already posted on another thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_5y3GKudcg&feature=player_detailpage

The clear, unmistakable message from Hamas is.”We Miss the Cuicide Bombings”.

AWV,

There's no formal Constitutional document but an 'uncodified Constitution'.
It's called the Basic Laws and case precedent.

The issue centres on intreperation of the words 'Jewish' and 'Israeli' Values and 'Jewish and Democratic' .

Intreprertations of these words lead to a favouring of Jewish Israelis over non-Jewish Israelis.

That's apartheid.

Here are some citations ... with appropriate questions.

'Establishes the status of Jerusalem ... deals with holy places; secures rights of members of all religions; grants special preference with regards to development.

Now what will be the intrepretation in relation to the Dome of the Rock?

'Defines human freedom as right to leave and enter the country, ... and protection from unlawful searches of one's person or property.'

Does this apply to refugees who leave ... temporarily?
Before you say former residents are't Israeli because they left prior to the Declaration just remember it was a stated requirement by the UN a constitution was required to be formulated before Declaration and was to accommodate non-Jewish Israelis and their traditions. Consider your position before before you rush in favouring the Israeli Jews.

'Guarantees every Israel national or resident's "right to engage in any occupation, ...". Any violation of this right shall be "by a law befitting the values of the State of Israel, enacted for a proper purpose, and to an extent no greater than is required."'

Hhmmm who decides 'violation', 'the values of Israel' and the 'extent required'?

'Upholds constitutional and legal basis for the operation of the Israel Defense Forces ... no extra-legal armed force outside the Israel Defense Forces may be set up or maintained.

Is it applied to ' armed settler groups'?

'Regulates payments made by and to the State...'

Does this include the taxes collected by Israel in the Non-Jewish occupied territories?

These 'laws' can only be intreperted to foster preference to Jewish Israelis.

Nowhere in this constitution is there any attempt to promote and protect the rights of minority groups.

We in the Western Liberal Democracies make a point of trying to inculde our minorities and accommodate their traditions. Why doesn't Israel?

'That’s because they CAN claim it'

That doesn't make it true.

Why don't you try an actual argument.

'the facts presented to you earlier that actually – yes, Israel is surrounded by a tyrannical, misogynist and Jihadist Arab world.'

What are your facts that take account of current political events and current realities? Situations can change ... you know. lol (humour)

'Judeo-Christian Heritage' please explain in detail how that works.
Western Liberal Democracies don't have Laws based on vengence such as the traditional Jewish belief in 'an eye for an eye' (Vengence writ large). In fact it is completely the reverse of our laws which are based in the Hebrew Christ's teachings re forgiveness and turning the other cheek.

Muslim countries don't claim to be Western Liberal Democracies nor claim to share their values.

'I do not vilify one group. I am stating the obvious'
You are and you aren't. lol (More Humour)

'Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.'
I know ... but try. lol ( even more humour)

Imajulianutter:

“There's no formal Constitutional document…”

Great, now we are getting somewhere. We have finally established that the awful, racist, discriminatory Israeli Constitution doesn’t actually exist. Unfortunately that means your previous argument,

“The Israeli Constitution specifies Israel's Laws will be based on it's Judean Heritage”

Has just gone up in smoke.

“Intreprertations of these words lead to a favouring of Jewish Israelis over non-Jewish Israelis. That's apartheid”

No it isn’t. Please study the meaning of the term Apartheid before using it so liberally.

“...deals with holy places; secures rights of members of all religions…”
“Now what will be the intrepretation in relation to the Dome of the Rock?”

The Dome of the Rock is managed by the Ministry of Religion in Amman, Jordan. It’s a Muslim country, in case you are wondering. A better example of apartheid might be the Western Wall during Jordan's occupation in 1948-1967, when Jews were not allowed to enter, let alone manage their holy places.

“Hhmmm who decides 'violation', 'the values of Israel' and the 'extent required'?”

The courts. This is how it's normally done in Western Liberal Democracies that you seem to be so passionate about. Israeli and Palestinian Arabs can take the government to court.

“What are your facts that take account of current political events and current realities?”

I have already explained that to you earlier, please go back and read it in detail. Nothing has really changed in the countries and territories surrounding Israel, with the exception of Syria, where things turned much worse. ‘Situation can change’, I know, but so far it hasn’t.

“Western Liberal Democracies don't have Laws based on vengeance”

Same as in Israel, but unlike some of the Muslim Arab countries where it is still customary to cut off a thief’s hand, or kill members of a rival family in the name of vengeance.

“In fact it is completely the reverse of our laws which are based in the Hebrew Christ's teachings re forgiveness and turning the other cheek”

What on earth are you talking about? Which of our laws are based on ‘turning the other cheek’?

avw..statements..via generalisations will allways be de-bait-able
obama as far as he claims..is christian..but his murder by drones..[by generalisation..is the same as any nutter..be the arab..or state..self emoliating.

ditto uk[the state..teaching how to murder..[
lest_we_forget..carbomb's was..*taught via irish bombing london...

but..its allways individuals..not generalisation.

we must recall..that the dictraiter arabs..have all been taught..by the state..and its all trurned out predicably bad..[war-aid..is not a thing advocated..by christian..nor muslim..nor jew messenger's..

although it may be infered..in some of their words[jesus saying grabbing..the sword..and mahamoud..by redefining priorities [qualities of jihad..and as for the jews..seizing 'the holy land'..under some god gifted..lol..right.

my point is..ts easier to murder/destroy/plunder..than build
and war mongering..of itself reveals a weak fearfilled state of mind

in short..my starting place is..no_one..has clean*hands...
so that direction..is name calling..or sorting by minutia..THAT wont unite us..only divide us..*eternally.

its much the same
re stazie/ss/mossad..etc..terror is not limited..to classifying it simply..strapping on 'a belt'..thats the evolution..but why fixate on that...demonic fear.

when i say israel suicide..i talk of the state
you may..or may not be aware much..the state claims/as histry..isnt being confirmed..in the ground..[like the walls of jerrico..happend long before the children of moses..people left the desert.

[noting only the young emerged to get to the ..'promised land'..[all unsircumscribed....but of course these inconveniant reveals..reveal only we ..*stand on weak foundations...

and so what..if you got great mess-angers..its the fruits of their message..that we face today

for egsample the talmud perversions
http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
quotations;from the Soncino Edition ..the Talmud,(Book)

''YEBAMOTH,60b...Rabbi.Ramanos who conducted an inquiry..and..'found'..in it..the daughter of a..'proselyte'..
who was under the age of three years..lol..and one day...,and Rabbi declared her..>>eligible to live>>with a priest."

(footnotes)"..A proselyte..under the age of three years
and one day..may be married by a priest...And was married..to a priest.

(i.e.,permitted to continue to live with her'husband'."]

(Book)

SANHEDRIN,..55b-55a:.."What is meant by this?...Rab said:..Pederasty with a child below nine years of age..is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that.

(footnotes)"..The reference is to..the passive..
'subject'/victim''..of sodomy''....STOP*

>>>its the little perversions
that subvert the origonal mess/age...

its sad..but thats just how it is..thus
WE MUST find..our own truth..

see how things are allways needing to be tested..but sorting the good from the vile..isnt easy..so many will chose to follow..not lead

im treminded of this by words from the messiah hyimself
as conveyted by a jew [in a course of miracles..which im letting guide me..till the 7 th of december..the point of no return[for me]

anyhow i comment on the lessons as they appear
todays lesson reads

http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3412&sid=9f1f743d950cb17ccd84c56804614220

[quote="GeneHrsy"][b]I merely follow,
for I would not lead.[/b]

and this i deecided long ago
there will allways be more clever than i[heck i see it in you..but like all men i have put faith in..they all just follwing others

so lets read the rest of todays teaching
from jesus himself..via chanle..[see acim.]

[i]Father, You are the One..Who gave the plan for my salvation to me.

You have set the way..I am to go,..the role to take,
and every step in my appointed path...

I cannot lose the way.

I can but choose to wander off..a while,and then return.
Your loving Voice will always call me back,..and guide my feet aright.

My brothers all can follow..in the way I lead them...Yet I merely follow in the way to You,..as You direct me and would have me go.[/i]

So let us follow One Who knows the way.""

ie the messiah..we all deney*
even his own

..""We need not tarry,
and we cannot stray..except an instant..from His loving Hand.

We walk together,..for we follow Him.
And it is He..Who makes the ending sure,..and guarantees a safe returning home.[/quote]...

FOR ALL OF US*

we all..have a choice.
you have a choice too.

i only quote others words
my trick is sorting vthings..i figure if its of god..its good
that not good is deeceite of men...and war aint good.