One of the things that the likes of *Joesphus* & *Runner* fail to grasp of their own obstinate volition is the difference between that which is known and that which is believed.

I strongly support the notion that they have a right to hold a belief. However, to read their words, it seems quite plain that they think that what they believe is actually fact.

I seem to recall you mentioning *DavidF* at how uncomfortable it made you feel when stared at in a particular way by a nun. Perhaps she was admiring you as "one of God's chosen people?"

..

If these types of people where to say for example:

" ... Well, we believe in non-corporeal green faeries who occasionally materialise in the garden to "bless" our plants. ... "

then that's fine, but to spout off belief as fact in the manner in which they do clearly puts them in the seriously delusional bracket i.m.o.

Dear Hadz,

<<tell me what I'm thinking right now...or now...how about now?>>

So you assume that God must know every piece of rubbish that's happening in this illusionary existence (not only that, but even how exactly it looks through the specific distorting spectacles of Hadz's mind)? Perhaps next you will want to ask Him which numbers will come up in the lotto, right?

Well Surprise, Surprise - He doesn't know either, nor does He care!

(but go ahead if you're keen, ask an astrologer - that wouldn't be any less rational than asking me or your senses)

Dear Josephus,

You wrote: “david f,

With your illogical claims that Hitler was following Christ when he murdered Jesus blood relatives.”

I didn’t write that Hitler was following Christ. I wrote that he was a devout Christian. If he had been following Christ he would have been a Jew not a Christian as Christ was not a Christian.

Logical or illogical Christians have made a habit of killing the relatives of Jesus. Theodosius, Martin Luther, Torquemada, Erasmus etc. have all promoted hatred for Jews and have supported persecution and murder of Jews. Hitler merely followed the pattern set by his murderous Christian predecessors.

The Evangelical Sisters of Mary, a Lutheran order, admit the murderous Christian actions:

http://www.kanaan.org/international/israel/israel1.htm

“After the horrors of the Holocaust were revealed, the question was raised: How could it have happened? The shocking truth is that the Holocaust was the culmination of centuries of hatred and violent persecution, often inspired by Christian theology.

I feel deeply convicted as a Christian but also as a German, for as early as the Middle Ages Jews were mercilessly killed by the thousand in German cities. Mother Basilea Schlink, founder of our community in Darmstadt, Germany, writes movingly in her book Israel, My Chosen People of how those who attack God's people attack Him, for Israel is the apple of His eye.

Considering the atrocities committed against the Jews in the name of Christ throughout much of Christianity's 2000-year history, how can we celebrate the millennium without first expressing our deep sorrow over the past in a spirit of repentance? By our unchristian attitude and behaviour we have brought shame upon the name of Jesus, making it offensive to His own people, the Jews … And so today it is our prayer that Christians all over the world will be inspired to commemorate the millennium with a service of repentance in a spirit of unity, acknowledging our common Christian heritage. “

The Evangelical Sisters of Mary seek to change the pattern as do other Christians of good will. Others like you, Josephus, choose to deny it.

The main purpose in life, as exhibited by human behaviour, generally, is competitiveness - in pursuit of power and numerical supremacy (through breeding, dominating, colonizing, converting, invading and enslaving, raping and murdering), and of self-comfort, self-interest and self-aggrandizement. Not a very nice picture.

Even in this forum competition is evident, but of course far more seriously and destructively in the world at large - on ethnic, cultural, religious, national, territorial and economic/resource grounds. Though a 'spiritual' purpose in life may be embraced in various religions, the practical reality is that such 'higher' aspirations appear rarely realized in practice, at other than a personal level. In the bigger picture we are all slaves of the political and socioeconomic systems in which we reside, and as increasingly determined and influenced by world affairs and our national interest.

As long as we, or any nation, can maintain security and sovereignty we may remain free to entertain or embrace a wide range of 'spiritual' purpose in life, in values and virtuous practice, in religious and cultural diversity - and diversity may be the safest path to follow.

Whether purpose in life is expressed simply as to lead a good and happy life, or as a 'spiritual' purpose, there need be no conflict of interest - as long as virtuous values are aspired and pursued, in respect for others and their beliefs, with tolerance, compassion and goodwill. Tolerance should not however extend to subversive elements or any abuse of individual human rights.

As the human psyche and consciousness are beyond mere physicality, it may not be unreasonable to consider these as an essence or character of the individual, and thus the spirit of the individual, moulded by experience, learning and self-development. This then presents a composite view of every individual as both a physical and a spiritual being. Possibly, whether we like that idea, or not. Either way, it appears certain that the 'spirit' must be nourished as well as the body, to attain contentment.

Saltpetre,
Great post!

david f,
Please note in your quote these words, "By our unchristian attitude and behaviour we have brought shame upon the name of Jesus, making it offensive to His own people, the Jews".

Hitler as were many others were not Christian in their attitudes or actions. Re-read the sentence so you understand the words.

Dear Josephus,

You wrote: david f,

Please note in your quote these words, "By our unchristian attitude and behaviour we have brought shame upon the name of Jesus, making it offensive to His own people, the Jews".

Hitler as were many others were not Christian in their attitudes or actions. Re-read the sentence so you understand the words."

I understand the words perfectly.

Christians may define those attitudes they don't like as unchristian. However, I think it more reasonable to define what is Christian by what Christians do. Instead of confronting their horrible history they will label what they don't like as unchristian. The Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary have confronted Christian behaviour that they don't approve of and have labelled it unchristian. However, at least they admit the behaviour.

Marxists do the same thing. When one mentions the appalling record and the many corpses produced by Marxists, Marxists will say what happened is a distortion of Marx.

Instead of really looking at what they have done Marxists and Christians will deny it by labelling the behaviour as unchristian or unmarxist.

The fact is that Hitler behaved as many Christians behaved before him. He followed a pattern set by Christians.

You prefer to label Christian behaviour you don't approve of by labelling it unchristian as do the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary. The difference between you and the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary is that they admit the behaviour and seek to change it.