I appreciate your more considered responses, runner… and I'm sure you will appreciate they've gained you more replies from other posters than is sometimes the case.

You often mention mankind's fallen nature which always makes me wonder what happened for all those years between Adam and the fourth century CE when Augustine of Hippo thought it up.

But saying, "When that nature is fed and immorality encouraged things go downhill" does imply that society is or was somewhere uphill first. On your point of 'rational thinking' over many decades – what you call 'stinking thinking' – I think you'll find that's been going on since at least Heraclitus in the sixth century BCE.

I'm sorry you're so down on human nature as that would seem not to say much about however it was created.

It's odd to see you say 'so many are fooled into Islam' – I know it's not your cup of tea but I would have thought you'd be pleased 'so many' have at least found God – or is there more than one?

My own observation of humanity is that it's confoundingly and resiliently capable of doing the very best and the very worst to itself.

WmTrevor you write

'You often mention mankind's fallen nature which always makes me wonder what happened for all those years between Adam and the fourth century CE when Augustine of Hippo thought it up.'

no the fallen nature of man is written clearly throughout Scripture.
King David wrote '(Psa 51:5) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Paul wrote

(Rom 5:8) But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
Jesus said
(Luk 18:19) And Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good? None is good except One, God.

Augustine certainly did not think this one up.

you say

'I'm sorry you're so down on human nature as that would seem not to say much about however it was created.'

It depend on how far we have fallen or diverted from the original creation.

you also say

'My own observation of humanity is that it's confoundingly and resiliently capable of doing the very best and the very worst to itself. '

I totally agree with this observation. That is why I object to the sinful nature being fed and encouraged by secular dogma that brings out the worse (abortion, immorality, greed, lust, blasphemy). When faithfulness, family values and self restraint is encouraged humanity is far more likely to do well.

sounds interesting

did david get an invite?

we Christians are happy to dialogue with Atheists.
In fact, this week...the Reason for Faith Festival in Melbourne, 16-20 April,..run by Christians""

non working xtians?

,""is seeking to change the style and tone
of the conversation to a rational,..reasoned,balanced,
open and honest discussion..between Theists and religious believers""

is that..as a call to charity?
or cast out sinners?

..""on the one hand..and Atheists,agnostics,
and so-called 'free thinkers'..on the other,, around the bigger 'why' questions

questions which Dawkins arrogantly dismissed..on Monday
in his debate with Pell..as 'simply silly'.""

you gotta recall
how saying nice things makes people want to listen

and how anger/insult..arrogance etc
shut ears off

more athiests with honey..[than sugar]
simple poor it over them....then put a stake through the meat ant nest
and let them find a reasoning behind...life...[pain..and living through it]...pain is a thing we all get

relieving pain..is lifes highest calling
ok plus hunger pain....domineering husban/wife..sin/drone
be kind to everyone..

regardless if you see them
in a church sinnergog..or an unconventional center..in mal born

lol

only in malborne

Ben98 says Atheism is not a business, its an idea.

Two comments

First, I agree Atheism is an idea which is partly what I meant by saying it was a belief system. We have competing belief systems based on certain premises backed up by knowledge grounded in observations and historical events. Atheism takes its place alongside various religious belief traditions and we have this mix of competing ideologies - Atheism is just the noisiest kid on the block, the question is whether it will grow up into something substantial. Just don't expect us Christians backing down.

Second, Atheism is certainly a business. Those high priests of the movement - Dennett, Dawkins, Harris didn't arrive at the Convention out of the goodness of their hearts. Not only so but the Victorian Government provided a substantial amount of funding for the GAC (which I don't object to, though I wouldn't mind knowing how much), so don't let's get precious about religious bodies receiving Government tax breaks.

foyle/quote..""The whole apparatus of absolution..and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral,""

many think this
so its time yet again to refute the lie

of course i cant accept your sin
thats against gods rules

god holds us as sinless[much so called sin..is karmic blowback]

made in ignorance...its forgiven...[as long as your seriously trying to overcome present sin..you are forgiven past sins][but back slide once..you reveal the greater sin

see decieving yourself is one thing
but decieving other..is huge..compounded if the lie..was by ommision..or to trick..into doing a vile

to b e fair tricking other to be nice
is a thing the weak enjoy...while not sinfull of itself
it yet binds ones soul..into the realm of tricksters

"""while the concept of revealed truth
degrades the whole concept..of free intelligence""

i prefer the words freewill/free choice

""by purportedly..relieving us...of the hard task
of working out...ethical principles for ourselves."""

big issues need big minds thinking big
not the small petty things

I find it interesting to observe the preponderance of comments from atheists and the anti God (ie anti Christian) crowd. It is always the same, Barney Zwartz blog is another example of the phenomenon.

Leslie Cannold at GAC pointed out the shortcomings of the Atheist effort at lobbying contra GetUp! and ACL and various pitiful pleas were made for funding (and just why were those ticket prices so high - was it the high price tags to secure the overseas Atheist clergy?).

I belong to one of the smaller Christian denominations in Victoria - about 6,000 bottoms on pews/seats on any given Sunday, yet we support 100+ full time persons (OK we don't pay much) in preaching, pastoral care, missionary and caring activities not paid with Government funding or investment income but paid for by the tithing and offerings of those 6,000 (actually more because not everyone is necessarily in church every Sunday). In addition we may have 20-30 additional staff funded at least in part by investment income.

The point I'm making is the Sunday by Sunday Christians are dedicated and seriously committed to their religion and its outworkings. Its one thing for the anti God brigade to post mostly noisy and rude blog entries (mralstoner is a notable exception); its another thing to ask how serious are they, will they dig deep and sacrifice time, intellect and money yo their cause. Will they get beyond the whingeing and whining and their smug, unreflective assertions they they alone follow reason?