Spindoc, sorry I was so "obtuse" for you.

1 - All those links are by PhD qualified experts, or thereabouts. What they have to say, I couldn't say any better. Two of them are TED talks.

2 - I did make an argument right there in the first paragraph, but I guess it was too cryptic, so let me spoon feed you ...

There is a problem with the new atheist movement led by Richard Dawkins. The problems are:

A - There are two fundamental cogs in the human psyche: beliefs and values. Beliefs are the realm of reason/science/facts/knowledge. Values are the realm of emotion/desires/feelings. The new atheism of Dawkins & Co is mainly consumed with the realm of beliefs. They are largely silent on matters of morality, values, culture and community.

B - The Western World is in decline and the humanist movement is not providing any answers. The movement is not building up communities and political parties to become an effective force of change.

As Alain de Botton says in the first video "we have secularised badly ... the secular world is full of holes".

So, in the interests of building a humanist movement that does lead us to a better place, I offered those links as the seeds of a deeper movement. But I'm guessing you're a typical atheist who is stuck in the narrow focus of beliefs/knowledge and has not yet graduated to the real world concerns of morality, culture, community and politics.

I'm happy to expand further. But I suspect your attention is on other-wordly things.

Chrisdbarry, yes I exaggerated to make a point. Communication is an art, not a science. Atheism is not as black and white as I painted it.

I'm glad that Sam Harris gets into meditation, and his Moral Landscape book is a welcome step in the direction of atheist morality (although a more personal emotional approach would be more productive than his technical/scientific approach to wellbeing which is years away from providing answers).

Yes, diversity of opinion about atheist morality/culture should be encouraged.

I exaggerate because the Western World is in serious decline and the humanist movement is stagnating when it should be building communities and political parties. Time is running out.

But generally your comment is valid.

Oh, good grief. Another bloody atheist-on-a-mission.

>>...in the interests of building a humanist movement that does lead us to a better place, I offered those links as the seeds of a deeper movement<<

What - apart from the views of that serial self-publicist de Botton - indicates a need for a "humanist movement", mralstoner?

If you need something to "lead you to a better place", may I recommend religion? It is painless, and allows you to be part of a "movement", which is clearly where you desire to be.

Oh, I see. You are making some wild-assed, totally unsubstantiated and - may I say - downright rude, assumptions about your audience.

>>But I'm guessing you're a typical atheist who is stuck in the narrow focus of beliefs/knowledge and has not yet graduated to the real world concerns of morality, culture, community and politics.<<

You sound like a clone of our friend runner, when you berate atheists for not being concerned with "morality, culture, community and politics" It is a generalization that is not only false, but of the most insulting variety.

For your edification, I am atheist. Given that my atheism consists entirely of a lack of belief in God, I count myself entirely "typical". And I have fully "graduated to the real world concerns of morality, culture, community and politics", thank you very much.

Why on earth do you feel it necessary to spruik yet another "movement"? Don't we have enough smug bastards already?

Dear mralstoner, many thanks for the advertorial however, I have to declare that in spite of your;

“But I'm guessing you're a typical atheist who is stuck in the narrow focus of beliefs/knowledge and has not yet graduated to the real world concerns of morality, culture, community and politics”, I am in fact a devout Catholic.

So whilst you declare that you are “happy to expand further”, I have to wonder if you really are?

Since you are concerned that my attention is on “other-worldly things”, I’m happy to submit myself to your interrogation.

Let’s begin with your failure to detect a catholic. Then we might progress to “Beliefs are the realm of reason/science/facts/knowledge” and then we might logically progress to “The Western World is in decline and the humanist movement is not providing any answers”, closely followed by, "we have secularized badly ... the secular world is full of holes". Then we might conclude with a very small collection of “why you don’t get much traction from reality”

I’m always happy to engage with those who profess an interest in reality, so ready when you are!

Not holding my breath!

Pericles, you seem to put a lot of effort into your "non-mission". Far more than most on OLO. So what's your mission called: Anti Smug Bastards Incorporated? I think we had that revolution in the Sixties.

We already stuck it to the man, dude. And now the world is run by demented valueless radically-individualist liberals who are intent on whistling past the graveyard while the Western World dies in a cultural, demographic, and economic ditch.

That's already a contradiction, mralstoner, right there:

>>Pericles, you seem to put a lot of effort into your "non-mission". Far more than most on OLO. So what's your mission called: Anti Smug Bastards Incorporated?<<

Mission/non-mission are mutually exclusive, in most societies. And you were right the first time, I am a committed "non-mission" person, which means by definition that I do not have a mission.

E 'chiaro?

But you are accurate in detecting the subtext, that I do take potshots at smug-bastardry whenever it raises its head on a topic that interests me. (If I did it for everything, I'd have a full-time job on my hands, eh?).

You popped your head over that particular parapet with your categorization of "a typical atheist". Let me remind you of it:

>>But I'm guessing you're a typical atheist who is stuck in the narrow focus of beliefs/knowledge and has not yet graduated to the real world concerns of morality, culture, community and politics.<<

Smug bastard.