BPT,

I couldn't give a toss what you've got time for.

A "humanitarian atheist" who "stalks and seeks out Christians and other self-identified people of faith."

Au contraire...., my best friends are Catholics of faith - and the nicest most genuine people you'd ever be likely to meet. It seems, however, that I never meet their ilk on OLO.

Can't you conduct a conversation without resorting to stereotypical labels?

As for "sheer primitive rage" - your posts appear to be among the most acerbic and inflammatory on this thread.

AJ Phillips,

The issue here is that you treat reason as an absolute.

Yet the evidence is clear; reason is not, and cannot be, absolute.

Why is that the case?

1. The use of reason is a subjective matter and the interpretation of "evidence" (whatever evidence actually is) is also highly subjective and relies on intuition, personal experience and a range of other factors.

The outcome of 1, is...

2. This makes it possible for two rational people to reasonably disagree, and it also means that even reasonable people often say ridiculous things. This happens on a whole range of issues all the time, so it is bizarre that someone would expect that to NOT happen for an issue as emotionally charged and as complex as a discussion between finite beings about an (allegedly) infinite God. Yet, by talking about reason as if it's an absolute that's exactly what you're doing.

In my next post, I'll show some examples to prove my point

To prove my point on a practical level, allow me to provide two examples. I said there are two practical outcomes showing the flimsiness of "reason". 1. Reasonable people can disagree and 2. People who claim to be reasonable regularly say ridiculous things. I will now provide examples of number 2. (I'm sure we can all think of examples of number 1 fairly easily, so I won't bother with that).

Naturalistic atheists consider themselves to be beacons of reason amongst the irrational masses of everyday society, many of whom believe in God, or miracles or at least some kind of new age spirituality. And yet, these same atheists REGULARLY come up with all kinds of ridiculous old canards, consider the following statements:

1. Religion is a primary cause of war and/or most wars are caused by religion and therefore the world would be a much more peaceful place without religion,

2. A historical Jesus never existed. The idea of Jesus is most likely just a complete myth dreamt up by some deluded Jews and is based on NOTHING historical. There was not even a historical person or teacher who the myth was based on.

These two statements are claims you will regularly read if you travel along to atheist websites. And yet, both are highly unsupportable in terms of evidence and are almost laughable. Yet the supposed beacons of reason trot these out all the time.

If reason is such an absolute (as you claim, AJ) and the use of pure reason should be unaffected by subjective emotions, then why do supposed reasonable atheists make such ridiculous statements with frightening regularity?

Give a good answer to that question, my friend, and I'll begin to consider your idea that "reason" should be considered some kind of absolute and that it is the fantastic path to knowledge that you evidently believe it is.

I'd say it takes quite a lot of "faith" to believe that reason is as great as you think it is ;-).

Dear Grim,

"what sort of a God creates beings with endlessly enquiring minds, and then says: "Don't enquire"?"..."A very shy one, methinks."

Look who's being shy here!
Why don't you say straightly what's really on your mind and the REAL reason why most humanists shy away from God:

<what sort of a god creates beings with an endless sexual appetite and then says: "Don't do it"?>

ALL the above are merely unfounded human ideas, ignorantly projected on God. Do broaden your idea of God, the essence of all goodness, then you'll discover He's not that bad after all!

've never ceased to be amazed at how the True Believer's God is always so perfectly in agreement with the True Believer.
Posted by Grim,
Amazingly It is the other way around. The believer in God is trying (with God's help) to live their life according to God's guidance hence Prayer and Bible reading.

Darwin's theory of evolution is just that.. a THEORY. Darwin had many arguments with the church leaders of his time to publish his work and due to the print media his theory has been spread far and wide.
By the way according to Darwin,s son, towards the end of Darwin's life he turned back to God and regretted developing his theory. But the scientific world has run off with the "THEORY" as if it is gospel truth.

God's signature is everywhere in creation so how can anyone say they can't see God. Where is God. Yes, God the Father is invisible, God the son is God who made himself visible and God the Holy Spirit is God working in men. Yes, one God with three natures .. like I am a mother, a sister a daughter. One person 3 roles.
God created Adam and Eve and it "WAS" good. God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. God did not walk away from that relationship it was Adam and Eve they hid........ . Genesis.
Cont......

In Queensland bible reading has always been allowed in schools. Schools have never been totally "Secular".
Chaplaincy in schools is always begun at the community. Chaplains are not appointed to schools unless there is a ground swell from the community. So no Christian is imposing their religion on anyone in the schools. SU facilitates Yes and isn't that fantastic that there are some checks and balances in place. How could the schools provide the time to manage the whole process? SU has many volunteers to assist and then each community requesting a chaplain has the best management process in place as SU overseas the whole state rather than each school "re-inventing the wheel" so to speak. Absolutely brilliant.

By the way, I am a Christian and I detest the term religious.
I am not religious- to me religious can be all about showiness, rituals etc. it does not reflect the heart. A Christian has a heart for God, an obedient, heart and they are more interested in their walk before God than what "men" may say about them.
God is the God of individual hearts and the God of the Nations. The Government is on Jesus shoulders and God has appointed Jesus to be the Judge of every heart at a future time. As I have said before even though some might like to "believe" schools are secular they are not God is still there. He is not a God just for the Christian schools He is God of ALL. It is not about evidence and facts if is about faith. In fact science is starting to prove the bible and many historical events confirm biblical events.
Lets let a little LIGHT into the world. Jesus is the Light of the world.