I realy have no objections to muslims as long as they are willing to integrate into the Australian culture. But experiences through out the world shows that this never happens, for example the Sharia courts setup in the UK. You are offended by our christian celebrations but ignore the fact that we are offended by you barbaric halal slaughter of animals.
you have to rewalise that many of your actions are barbaric.
Marrying children as young as 10.
Circumcising your females and males.
Not allowing women to be educated.
Beheading anyone leaving the muslim faith.
To name just a few.
Yes i know this does not happen in Australia but if Sharia law were to be interoduced into Australia as all good muslims demand these barbaric practices will become not only the norm but required by law.

I would agree with Ali that there are many good Muslims in Australia. However because of the broad sprectrum of the Muslim faith it allows educated radicals interpreting the Kora'n to flourish and breed hatred of infidels, Jews and Christians as has happened in Britian, and in Ambon.

Islam is not confined to race it is society of followers of many races, based upon the theocratic laws of an ancient view of Allah and the views of the prophet in the context of his tribal Arabic culture.

Proud to be a muslim? What can you be talking about! Your religious 'faith' arises from your birth and relentless family pressure together with your fear and emotional inability to rationaly examine your twelfth century beliefs in the light of modern science and everyday experience. In this of course you are not alone - you share these charactersitics with the other Abrahamic religions. Even so, believing this twaddle and being part of a world wide group that espouses brutality and ignorance to those both inside and outside of the 'faith' scarcely qualifies as being worthy of pride. Personal pride is - or should be - reserved for genuine personal achievement.

I’m confused with the talk of people being “racist” if they were anti-Muslim.

Does that mean that people were asked about Islam and didn’t like it or were they anti-Arab but okay if the Arabs were Christians or some other creed?

jewely, apparently if you are anti-muslin, that is construed as racist - since it's convenient to batter anyone who disagrees with the politically correct views in the strongest terms

personally I agree with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, that to tolerate intolerance (muslim intolerance) is cowardice, and that we should challenge all their obsessive intolerance and not change our traditions or society to attempt to reduce their contempt and lack of tolerance for us.

Meet it head on or we are lost

Mohammed Ali has tainted an otherwise reasonable position with the illogical conflation of religion and race.

I agree with earlier posts, for the umpteenth time, Islam is an ideology and Moslems are not members of a 'race'. Moslems must not be allowed to use racial villifaction laws as an attempt to silence free speech.

Hey Ammo, Yeah I guess I am wondering who translated anti-muslim into racist. Did the survey people write it up as a conclusion or it was reached during the ABC 666 radio interview in Canberra or did the author kind of just throw that word out there.

Might have been a typo Mac. What is the word if you don’t like a particular religion?

I personally agree with no one today, as is my right or I think it is. I support people being able to hate other people for whatever reason – acting on that hate is a whole other thing. Hypocritically I support people also being able to love each other for whatever reason but I’m all good with them acting on it.

I’m all for change and also not changing things that are working. Reducing contempt in another person is interesting – who is Avaan Hirsi Ali and has Runner talked to them?

ayaan hirsi ali is a Somali woman who walked away from islam, has been in politics in the netherlands, which she had to leave due to some immigration issues - but has lived in fear ever since she worked with a film maker in Netherlands (who was murdered by a muslim extremist) for making amovie which quoted the koran and showed video footage .. without seeing it, the muslims were outraged someone used words from the koran and the rest is history.

The video was examples of the word of the koran .. the muslims clearly thought it portrayed them poorly, so condemned her and the filmaker to death .. such is their tolerance.

she was in Melbourne recently for a writers festival I think .. very interesting woman, strong ideas

her biography is called "infidel" and the movie is "submission" and Theo Van Gogh was murdered for making it

I'm not sure runner would agree or disagree with her, she has very strong ideas about islam, having been brought up in that society, even living in saudi for a while .. a guest compere on the ABC in sydney who is usually quite moderate was absolutely poisonous about her when someone asked him his opinion her, it was a very revealing moment actually. he presents as such a moderate muslim .. then has a complete hissy, since she left islam and has dared to criticise it

So he revealed what we all suspect, the moderate muslims are such right up till they revert to form (intolerance). mind you some Christians do that as well, as do sikhs and hindus

The people of Australia have a sovereign right to prevent the entry of members of any religious, political, racial or ethnic group who we have reason to believe will become a threat to this nation’s peace and stability.

The Muslim religion is not just a religion. It is a complete religious, legal and social system all rolled up into one. The most significant written aspect of this “religion”, is its total hostility to non members as expressed by its own Prophet in their own holy books. It is a misogynist religion, which not only endorses the idea that woman are the property of men, it authorizes the use of physical brutality in forcing women to obey men.

The most damning indictment against this “religion” is that it has created societies which are some of the most backward and strife ridden on this planet. And the more Muslim any nation is, the more backward and strife prone it is. As a social system, Islam is an abject failure.

Every nation on this planet which has got significant minorities of Muslims has also got serious cases of terrorism, spiralling crime rates, spiralling welfare bills, demands for separatism, demands for separate laws, and other unwanted serious social problems.

Muslims began immigrating into Australia about 30 years ago, and they are noted for their high rates of welfare dependency and serious criminal behaviour. Far from integrating with multicultural Australia, Muslim majority suburbs are becoming monocultural enclaves as the resident populations of Australians flee their former suburbs in order to get as much distance from Muslims as they can. Applications to councils for the erection of new mosques are always opposed by local residents, fearful that their peaceful suburbs will become the next crime hotspots complete with aggressive and offensive young Muslim gang members, drive by killings, and rampant drug abuse.

The act of creating a country with a border is an act of discrimination. We demand that our elected representatives take note of our desitre to exclude Muslims from immigration to this country, as they represent an unacceptable threat to our safety.

Amicus:“So he revealed what we all suspect, the moderate muslims are such right up till they revert to form (intolerance). mind you some Christians do that as well, as do sikhs and hindus”

Umm... I don’t suspect it. As a non believer in any gods who has hung out with a few different Muslims I’ve had months of listening to Muslim Arabs and British Muslims. No religion has tempted me yet but I didn’t find them any better or worse than other religions. I found the Iraqi Muslims a bit harsher, Saudis I think decided I was unconvertible and not worth the effort anyway but they are awesome and generous hosts. Jordanians – scary. NZ and Indian Hindu’s just go on and on and on. They feed you and lecture you on everything and it is so confusing. Lebanese Christian males are great fun but I found that stuff about women was all going on the same with Italian Catholic males and Christian Australian males. At least none come to your house with pamphlets to bleat at you unsolicited on your doorstep.

So I decided it wasn’t the religions it was which cultures were using them. I’ve yet to hang out with an Aussie Muslim but I’m sure my time will come.

1.41-1.57 billion Muslims and growing faster than the next two
Roman Catholic Church, with 1.166 billion (half the worlds Christians)
1 billion Hindus

Given the numbers if Muslims were all so extreme I think we’d already be dead.

Lego:“We demand that our elected representatives take note of our desitre to exclude Muslims from immigration to this country, as they represent an unacceptable threat to our safety.”

Who’s “we”?

My attitude is if a person who comes here feels more strongly about secular values than religious ones, they'd already be a fairly good candidate to let in.
As there are plenty of moderate and Secular Muslims in Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia, Turkey, Iran (fleeing mind you), Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia, among other countries, this is perfectly fine.

Now, listen carefully anyone reading this, because this point needs to be pointed out.
You do not actually believe there IS such a thing as a moderate Muslim because you never SEE a moderate Muslim- you see plenty of lunatics in robes in the news, but you almost never see any coverage of an actual secular Muslim. You can't tell a fundamentalist or moderate if she wears a Hijab, and if they don't wear the tell-tale garb (most secularists), you wouldn't even realize they WERE Muslim.

Now;
By screening people for religious fundamentalism in general, you have a proper non-discriminatory non-divisive approach that effectively keeps out every person that rejects democratic Western culture for Shariah- and furthermore keeps out any other unstable loony- like Mel Gibson, Fred Phelps and the Pope (sparing Sydney another WYD).

Mohammed, I'm sure you're a really nice person. But that's not the point. You are a really nice person with some ideas from a Bronze Age tribal culture; but that's not the point either, because all of us are that. The point is that by casting your Bronze Age ideas as the commands of a divine and omniscient being, you become immune to reason and logic. That not only makes you dangerous in yourself, it also makes you a willing victim and dupe for any imam or mullah who can cast their vicious and destructive agenda in terms that make you believe it is the will of your God.

Religious believers -- of all kinds -- are dangerous to society in the same way, and for the same reason, that drunk drivers are dangerous to society: because they cannot be trusted to make rational decisions in moments of crisis.

It seems that most people are still unable to discriminate between religion and culture.

As far as repressing women goes, Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world. They recently had a woman as their Prime Minister and I don't recall ever seeing her in a Burqa. Likewise, a prospective female candidate for leader was assasinated in Pakistan a few years ago.

Turkey is also a Muslim state and is apparently a great place to go to see belly-dancers.

Most of the notions that westerners find difficult to accept are from fundamentalist states in some middle-eastern countries and should be identified as such - not some one-size-fits-all idea.

It's like claiming that the Amish are typical of all christians or that all jews hold strictly orthodox beliefs.

It's religious intolerance that's help cause this problem and it's what is keeping it alive.

Is it culture or religion - they usually go hand in hand.
Whether they wish to convert our culture to their barbarism in the name of their culture or religion then I am against it.
I am not a against a race, I am against barbarism.
if budhists or hindis acted this way I would be against it just as much.

wobbley "It's religious intolerance that's help cause this problem and it's what is keeping it alive."

No, I believe it's not intolerance of the religious that's the issue, it's the intolerance by the religious - that's at the heart of all the riots after prayers by muslims on a Friday .. they go to the mosque, the imams stir them up they come out rioting and killing .. because they are intolerant .. don't even mention cartoons!

It's at the heart of all the christian and other religious fundamentalism, islam is just way more over the top of the same and they get attention because it's in that religions name, right now that they kill people and in fact insist a whole country has no right to exist

Sure, other religions are intolerant as well, but not to the extremes of a religion that is also the basis of their culture .. that they then demand we have to accept their cultural intolerance because it is their religion that governs their society.

there is no breaking that loop, and the odd one out here and there appears tolerant .. right up till they find there is a line they do not cross, their religion denotes that line.

we need to stop tolerating BS from all religions, and push back really bloody hard on any that insist on their intolerant "rights" because of some holy book or other object/belief

Some of the old crew I see. I'm just going to throw this in, just to see if it bounces:

Shall we be enlightened? or, Do we think, rightly or wrongly, that we are already enlightened?
And God created "Man" in his own image. As African, Nordic, Inuit, Germanic, Arabic, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Melanesian, Indonesian, Aztec, New Guinean, Aborigine .....
As Adam and Eve had transgressed, and taken a wrong path, "Jehovah" shed light on a better path, and some took heed.
And God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to Palestine, to be amongst the Jews who had been suppressed by the Romans, who had annexed Egypt.
To the darkness of Arabia came a voice for progress, loving "Allah" and urging Rules and Law and pursuit of knowledge. Mohamed.
In Greece there was philosophy, democracy and literacy, whilst the Romans built roads, bridges and aqueducts, and cities with sewage systems.
In the East a voice came for love and benevolence and the sanctity of life. Buddha.
Still in the East a voice for philosophy and learning. Confucius.
For some others truth lay in the earth, in nature and the cycles of life.

We are "Man" in His image - Inside. "I" am not more than "He" or "Them".
"We" are not entitled or allowed to force change on "Them" to "Our" image, we may only ask for harmony within the breadth of God's creation of Life. We may only respect and preserve the abundance and profusion of HIS creation, in harmony and absence of conflict, in love and kindness and sharing. To be true to Him.

Brothers all, in the name of peace, and His Will (or just because it makes sense).

Ok, forget all the religious hyperbole, isn't it time to move on towards a world culture - given globalisation in trade, immigration, and inter-dependency? Still rival groups, each looking to see who's going to blink first. Tolerance? It's getting that way I'm just about ready to nuke everybody that doesn't think as I do. How sick is that?

Mohammed Ali sounds like a nicer person than his name sake. One would need to be blind Freddy (sorry you ain't suppose to say that anymore) not to observe what Muslim immigration has done to Holland, Germany, France and England. Taken as individuals muslims can be very good citizens. Taken collectively and especially with a large population they have proven to be very troublesome. Malaysia is quoted as a 'good'example of a Muslim nation. It is however against the law for a native (ones who claim to be native anyway) to convert to earth worshipping or Christianity or any other religion. The reason most Muslims want to leave Islamic countries is because of the rotton fruit of their philosophies. We have enough of our own issues without creating the inevitable problems which are clearly evident wherever Muslims immigrate.

Amicus

I have been impressed with what of i seen of ayaan hirsi ali. She seems very dignified and has commosense which is why you won't see her getting to many more ABC interviews. They would rather run the Arab news channels.

"It's like claiming that the Amish are typical of all christians or that all jews hold strictly orthodox beliefs."
Wobbles- you DO realize that the people you are talking to probably DO only understand the world from basic stereotypes?
I guarantee if you were to put forward to some of these people a story about, say, the Egyptian uprisings- without Islamist groups, mummies, phaorohs, pyramids and camels to refer to, they would NOT know what to think about it.
.....

Ok, forget all the religious hyperbole, isn't it time to move on towards a world culture - given globalization in trade, immigration, and inter-dependency? Still rival groups, each looking to see who's going to blink first. Tolerance? It's getting that way I'm just about ready to nuke everybody that doesn't think as I do. How sick is that?
Posted by Saltpetre, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 3:44:15 PM
-
A singular "World Culture" will never likely happen.
I'd actually think along the lines of each country be more tolerant to the domestic practices of the other and stand up for their rights to do so; while nurturing more interdependency and cultural exchange between compatible countries that both agree to do so.
That way unnecessary divisions are reduced, and incompatible countries are free to mind their own business without worrying about what the other might do.

Kudos to Wobbles and of course me ol' mate Jewely; good arguments.
Personally, I'm unfailingly offended at the notion that morality can only be learnt from the Bible. Considering civilised Australians don't even condone Capital Punishment for murder, how can we possibly learn morality by studying a God who will cause idolaters, blasphemers and adulterers to burn in Hell for all eternity?
Christ, we don't even condone water boarding for five minutes.
Find me a God who has a higher moral compass than the average Aussie, and I'll consider worshipping him/her/it.
BTW, my children were of only 2 families in primary school who didn't attend 'SRI'. The reason? They thought the scripture teacher was 'nasty'.
I figured that was a good enough reason to disallow her from teaching my kids her religion.

GRIM

Find me a God who has a higher moral compass than the average Aussie......lol, you'll be looking for a very long time:)

Peace and all that jazz;)

LEAP

The problem with all religions, " these books " that there's two ways of reading them. One is the peaceful way ( which we all enjoy ) and the other is hateful death , and killing of innocent people in the name of god, that no rational human in 21 century can understand.

Now... I would like to thank all Bundaberg Muslims for their joy in the death ( oh the irony ) of Osama bin laden, but that's not good enough!

You are a guess here, like all else.....and your smart enough not to push your weight around, like they do in the UK.


I know you wont like this....but this is how we feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA3OzSCdCUk

If you wont to play stone-age, you know where is air-port is.

Peace and all that jazz.

LEAP

I was intrigued by the comment "Although this pride takes a hit every now and then due to the negative statements of a few non-Muslims"

I wonder if this guy causes any lack of pride http://muslimvillage.com/forums/topic/62765-full-bred-aussie-with-a-longing-for-sharia-law/

We probably all remember Sheik Hillai and some have read the rant's of Kaiser Trad and his views on the decendants of convicts. The behavior of the gangs of Lebanese muslim youth's in the lead up to the riot at Cronulla has been widely enough publicised that the author should be aware of it.

I've had female friends impacted by lower level but in the same style behaviours by groups of young men who by outward appearances, accent etc appear to be of the same origins.

Unless there is some kind of massive oversight (I've had those when writing) I'd suggest that the excesses of some of his fellow muslims should warrant a mention in the pride taking a hit stakes. Far more than the opinions of non-believers.

If the uncovered meat comments by a man who was at the time portrayed as Australia's senior muslim cleric did not hit the radar nor any of the other grievances which are fairly widely publicised then it is cause for concern.

R0bert

hmmm, after reading this whole article I am left with the conclusion that everyone has an opinion about what they think "Christianity" is, but none of you actually have any idea except that which you perceive in your own opinion. There are no end of references towards "racism" and "religious intolerance from Christians" on here,Well I am a born again Christian, I am not a racist; But I am a culturalist and very proud to be.
I could not care less what country you come from or what colour your skin is, But I do care when you come here and insist that we change. If you love your culture so much, go back. If you are an Australian and choose to be a Muslim then be one but if you want the Muslim laws, go to their countries. Your choice. We - the Australian people are all of immigrant decent (except 100% Aboriginals)and we embrace the freedoms that our forefathers fought for.
There is only one race.. the HUMAN RACE!
We have always celebrated the Christian God in this country and only started questioning when other religions came here and said "you need to change"..WHY? If you Believe in a different God that is your choice but stop knocking this countries foundation.. it is what gave us the freedom the whole world is coming here illegally to get.
The same freedoms that you have grown up with if you were born here, if you don't believe in God- it is that very freedom that says you don't have to. Regardless of what you think, this country WAS founded by Christians, historical fact - Captain James Cook was a Christian, that is our history, that is our heritage - get over it.
Real Christians are NOT violent people; Religious fanatics are.Real Christians are quietly serving and loving and giving to their communities. Chew on that for a while and I am sure none of you will like a word I have said but that is my freedom to voice it.

Grim honey, nice to see you as always. Was wanting to have a word with you about a joke that appeared to come from avasay. Ahh found it: http://thecomensality.com/avasay/oh-yeah/feed

R0bert:”I've had female friends impacted by lower level but in the same style behaviours by groups of young men who by outward appearances, accent etc appear to be of the same origins.”

Yeah me too but watch out for the Aussie “Lads” – wanna be Lebs who everyone else makes fun of.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lad

Becca: “We have always celebrated the Christian God in this country and only started questioning when other religions came here and said "you need to change"..WHY?”

-:Aboriginal religion, like many other religions, is characterised by having a god or gods who created people and the surrounding environment during a particular creation period at the beginning of time. Aboriginal people are very religious and spiritual, but rather than praying to a single god they cannot see, each group generally believes in a number of different deities, whose image is often depicted in some tangible, recognisable form. This form may be that of a particular landscape feature, an image in a rock art shelter, or in a plant or animal form.-:

Why you Christians change that? Shall we go through countries colonised where you messed with their foundations and older religions? Who is telling you that you need to change?

“Real Christians are NOT violent people; Religious fanatics are.Real Christians are quietly serving and loving and giving to their communities. Chew on that for a while and I am sure none of you will like a word I have said...”

Only because it’s probably bollocks depending on how this word “real” is defined and you did just rant and told everyone to chew on it - is that the real Christian popping out to say hello? I do agree that the laws of the land you are in should be followed – not the ones made by religion for religion though. That's just dumb of Christians since all religions can make use of them.

"Yeah me too but watch out for the Aussie “Lads” – wanna be Lebs who everyone else makes fun of." - and the yob/lad part of our culture is in there with things to be less than proud of.

I've had my run in's with them as well. I've not heard of women needing to avoid certain streets in their neighborhood because of the confronting behavior of groups of Aussie "lads" (again it probably exists but I've not heard of it). Where lad's seem to be an issue is at events with a lot of booze.

Rebecca6 the issue of indiginous religion has already been raised. Over to you on that one. Captain Cook did not stay, the founding happened as a penal colony with some history of extreme brutality. Should I cling to those traditions as well?

I'd agree that no-one choosing to move here should be scheming to try and make it more like the place they left (dam lantana, rabbits and foxes). What I'm not convinced of is that many migrants are actually trying to do that. A small number but most seem to want a break.

In the context of this thread the apparent tolerance by Aussie muslims to vocal muslim extremists does concern me. Those who write for the broader media seem much more focussed on attacking Islams critics than on speaking against those who do the real harm to the reputation of muslims.

R0bert

I am glad that you are a proud Åustralian Muslim.

However, until Muslims stand up and be counted, and openly condemn the appalling attitudes, customs and crimes perpetuated in the name of Islam, Islam will be seen to be a monolithic belief, without variation.

The silence from Muslims when fellow Muslims insult main-stream Australia is deafening. Instead we have those rushing to defend this, as already mentioned by OLO contributors. Instead one has to wonder why such people were not removed from positions where they represented the "public face" of Islam.

Every other major religion have those who openly criticise aspects of their "kin", whose practices and attitudes are seen to be misguided, or abhorent. Why are Muslims different?

As for racism. Many have pointed out ... ad infinitum ... that Islam is not a race. The term "Islamophobia" was first coined in Iran by their religious leaders condemning those who did not embrace Islam as dicated.

Many Muslims seem to believe that they are a special and unique presence in Australia. In fact, they are wrong. We have had Muslims in this country since the 19th century, when these people became an important part of our history. The descendants of these Muslims are very much part of Australia. These Muslims see no distinction between themselves than any other group; and fellow Australians see no distinction either.

I suspect many Australians are irritated by the fact that new Muslims whilst insulting the country that has taken them in and the values we hold in Australia, expect preferential treatment. Australians are not insular, indeed our values have been shaped by the many other cultures that have entered this country. For this we owe a debt of gratitude to them.

Muslims need to take a long and serious look inward.

Jewelry,
I suggest you google Ayaan Hirsi Ali. There is heaps there and I think you will like her. She is very outspoken about Islam, but is articulate and speaks quietly. A very interesting woman of vast experience in both Islam and Western culture. There are some who have critisized her for speaking out but, to my knowledge, few have been able to dispute what she says and I believe she is closely scrutinized.

When I read this article, the alarm bells started when the author said he did not think Canberra was a racist city or Aus was a racist country. Here he is suggesting that persons who are anti Islam are racist. The racist card is played to put opponents on the defensive. In doing this he has lost his credibility, in my eyes.

Islam is a religion and a way of life, its followers come from many different races, Am i a racist if I am anti Buddist or anti Hindu or anti Christian?

I would not, at this stage, agree to stop Islamic immigration. How ever I would stop further immigration of those groups, of whatever religion or race, that have shown they are not prepared to integrate into our society.

First on that list would be those groups that practice FGM. Next would be the Croats and Serbs who continue their feuds here, same with the Sudanese or Somalies that are currently using machettes on each other. That will do for starters, but consider the Leb muslims because of anti social behaviour and the Sri Lankans and the Tamils for feuding.

I think that would be sufficient to get the message across that we do not want those who flout our laws and social standards. If you are not prepared to integrate, you are not welcome.

If you are not prepared to integrate, you are not welcome.

Banjo.....Now I know you love your country.

Lets keep australia, just like it is.....wht doya recon mate:)\\

Br Proud by all means, but make the guesses understand, we will not take your sh!t.....by any means.

Australia is a place of all first peoples, that's made this country the way it is, and if you think you are going to change us into thinking Muslim is the way to go..............Oh dear:) You have No idea of what you are, and why you do it.

We call that stone-age.

Peace or not?

Your call:)

LEAP

I am not at all surprized that 40% of Camberrians are anti muslim. If you added on those that had serious misgivings about Islam, the figure would be much higher. if the survey was done in Sydney or Melbourne the figure would be higher still.

Why?

Simply because of the conduct of the muslims themselves. Lebs are the majority of muslims here and are well known for their anti social conduct. The pack rapes in Sydney did not help their cause, nor the attempted domination of the Cronulla beach, which resulted in a strong community backlash. Plenty of instances of bashings of anglo blokes and harrassment of anglo girls. Pretending to be offended by nativity scenes at shops and so on. Some popular Sheik, named Feize, reckoned our girls deserved to be raped, because of their dress.

We have now gaoled 20 muslims for planning terrorist activities here in Aus. Lucky we caught them.

Then we get to the international situation. Since 9/11 there have been over 17000 terrorist attacks, with unknown dead and injured. This last week alone the have been 118 killed and 227 injured. Riots and demonstrations in UK, France and other European countries.

There are far too many instances of beheadings, stonings and honour killings in the name of Allah.

Sheez, and the author wonders why muslims are not particularly liked gennerally

Hi Mohammed Ali,

I'm a complete irreligious nutter and won't enter into any of the pointless point making or religious or cultural point scoring. I'm proudly western and have been educated by the great writers and philosophers of the west. And am proud of our developed Liberal Democratic basis. Which has drawn in no small measure from the majestic Islam of the Caliphates, of Baghdad, which of course you know predate the rise of the Islamic fundamentalism of the Imams, of Mecca, or roughly the 11 or 12 century A.D..

I will take issue with your political premise. Let me quote,

'Is the call for an absurd moratorium the chasing of working class votes for the Liberal Party?'

Which seems to me if you take such a statement to it's natural logical conclusion, only indicates you may, rather unconsciously, believe racists and anti-muslims don't already vote for the Liberal but for their oponents the Labor people.

'In my 20 years in Australia I am yet to experience a tradesman who has shown any hostility towards me ...'

And this statement in apparent condescending defence of assumed (Wrongly) labor voting tradespeople seems to me, again if you take such a statement to it's natural logical conclusion, only indicates you, again rather unconsciously, believe such people may indeed be racist but that they haven't exposed themselves or you simply haven't recognised such.

I have a little advise for you. I think you need to converse with a much wider group than you do currently and avoid showing an anti conservative bias and re-assess the ALP and it's supporters. This forum is a start but ignore the bigotry and contain your own.

Oh and avoid the ABC, it's the propaganda arm of the ALP and they tend to expose people, inadvertently with their lack of intellectualism, amateurism and socialist bias, more than do the 'normal' media.

And oh do move from Canberra it's diseased fake intellectualism is highly contagious.

Often what we say betrays, with the application of a little lateral perception and logic, more than we ever intend.

Good health and cheers

Mohammed Ali,

Oh bother I on rereading discovered an omission,

In the sentence
'And this statement in apparent condescending defence of assumed (Wrongly) labor voting tradespeople seems to me, again if you take such a statement to it's natural logical conclusion, only indicates you, again rather unconsciously, believe such people may indeed be racist but that they haven't exposed themselves or you simply haven't recognised such, or that those labor voting tradespeople are racists but haven't worked for you. It could be simply that because of you anti conservative bias you don't think tradespeople could possibly be liberal voters or therefore racist or anti-muslim.

Altogether I think you'd recognise how you've left me quite confused and totally unsure of your point.

Leap,
Gee, thanks for giving me the opportunity to expand on a couple of things!

It is not so much of loving my country, it is simply that I wish to see Aus as a decent place for our grandchildren to live in. We have always been a multi-racial country, but the polys have done their best, in 35 years, to stuff it by forcing pseudo-multiculturalism on us.

MC has not and will not work, the problems we now have are mainly between the ethnic groups who bring their old hatreds with them. We are a unique culture and it is reasonable to expect those that come to live here, at our behest, to abide by our laws and social standards. The Serbs and Croats have been here for about 3 generations and still fight each other over happenings centuries ago. Now the Sudanese are doing the same as are the Tamils and Sri Lankans.

It is all to do with cultural practices, some of which are handed down from generations. Dispite 16 years of education FGM is on the increase, so must be seen as a failure. Women that were 'done' here as girls are now having their own daughters mutilated. Leap, you may accept that but I don't. It is abhorrent to me that little Aussie girls are held down and pieces of flesh hacked off them. I would stop importing these groups immediately. By the way some maybe muslim and some maybe christian, I don't care.

As with the violence, it is the continued imports that refresh the alien cultural practices.

You seem to mention muslims as if I were singling them out. Croats ans Serbs are both I think and maybe the Sudanese are too. The Sri Lankans and the Tamils maybe Hindus, I am not sure, but i don't care. If they can't or will not accept our standards I don't want them here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA3OzSCdCUk

Banjo......like Chiropodists, your foot is not:) But keep selling:) Iam very proud of you. The religious books, "tells some that can read"..Ay runner, that most can and do practice their religions at home.

No problems with that....and what are we discussing again?

Good night.

LEAP

Hey Jewels, in an attempt to avoid being accused of hijacking this thread, I'll try to respond to your concerns about avasay in a manner appropriate to this conversation.
Is your sensitivity for your homeland leading you to attempt to force Kiwi culture onto (in)decent Australians?
We Aussies were making tasteless Kiwi/sheep jokes long before you arrived on these shores, you know. I think they're very much part of traditional Aussie culture.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that particular piece started as an Irish joke many many years ago, and has only recently been 'retooled'.
In fact, I can easily imagine Dave Allen telling it. For all you children under the age of 55, Dave Allen was a great Irish comedian who always ended his show with the words:
“Thank you for listening. Whatever god you support, may he go with you. Goodnight. Thank you.”
I've just posted another joke more appropriate to this thread:
http://thecomensality.com/avasay/afghanistan/feed

Perhaps Mr. Ali would care to share his views on the vile things done by his prophet against his neighbors. Even a simple reading of Islam's own traditions makes it clear, in chapter after chapter and book after book, that Mohammud attacked, plundered, killed, tortured, enslaved men women and children, raped captives until he conquered all neighbouring tribes - yet he is considered to be a noble example by Muslims. That should tell you all you need to know about Islam.

Perhaps Mr. Ali could share his views on the vile things said about non-Muslims in the Quran. Perhaps he can explain Quran 9:111 to us.

The fact is that until Muslims in Islamic societies change their ways and treat non-Muslims like people I see no reason to believe that Muslims want to live in peace with us. I look at Muslims and I see a people that says one thing and does another. I see a people that are either ignorant of their own writings, or are deceitful. I see a people that cannot be honest about their religion, their dear prophet or their brutal torturing god.

Look at the Muslim world. Do you think that Islam has nothing to do with the disrespect for non-Muslims, women, gays, or general lack of human rights and basic freedoms in those countries? Take a wild guess.

There may be good individual Muslims, but collectively they are a big minus in any society and will cause pain and suffering. It is just a matter of time and numbers.

Leap,
Once again thanks.

I had not seen that particular vid and it was good. straight to the point.

We need far more people like Pat condell and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

They need medals for having the guts to speak out. I recomend both Pat and Ayaan to all.

Banjo:”I suggest you google Ayaan Hirsi Ali.”

Yep it is on my list of googlising for today. :) I might like her, I like lots of people.

“Here he is suggesting that persons who are anti Islam are racist.”

That’s what I was thinking but still don’t know the word for being anti-particular religion. And all religions have the crazy stuff if you pick through their “books” with the rules in.

Danni:”Every other major religion have those who openly criticise aspects of their "kin", whose practices and attitudes are seen to be misguided, or abhorent. Why are Muslims different?”

They aint.

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2010/08/more_muslims_sp.php

http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2009/06/muslims-speak-out-against-harassment-of.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JijeTZjaSws

http://encounteringislam.org/misconceptions#14

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/811

http://www.newsmax.com/Emerson/muslimsgroundzeromosque/2010/10/04/id/372430

Everything is out there if you want to see it.

R0bert:”I didn't choose the lunch time programs run by christains at the school which were offering lollies and other treats to entice primary age kid's into their club. Nor was I informed that they were operating until my son had already been taking part - nothing like a few treats to get a kid's attention.”

That’s how they used to do it in caravan parks, give kids lollies and tell them about Jesus. Or back in the day when they wouldn’t teach islanders how to read and write unless they accepted God. And lookie it is all still happening.

Grim:”Is your sensitivity for your homeland leading you to attempt to force Kiwi culture onto (in) decent Australians?....”

No, only the indecent ones. It probably was the Irish cause lately I’ve heard reworked trailor trash jokes aimed at Kiwi’s. I had to go look up what a “double-wide” was. I haven’t been called sensitive before, I’m going to go bask in that for awhile and check out the last lot from avasay in my in-box.

Dave Allen was so cool, a drink and a smoke and a joke, great stuff.

Did you catch this one Leap? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhHHlgAG780&feature=related (warning: really really rally bad language) I think Pat is great.

A Kiwi is a nice piece of fruit. Plenty of flesh and a pleasant zing.

Christians do not practice or condone mutilation of any kind.

Plenty of posts identifying Islam as rigid, intolerant, abusive, repressive and unforgiving. Yet we see some Oz female Muslims, with and without requisite head-garb, extolling its virtues. What is the attraction?

Male Muslims I can understand a little - with their broad, if not requisite, domination of their females - though I could not condone or support any form of abuse. Nonetheless, the rigid, intolerant aspects of Islam would for me far outweigh any possible benefit from any apparent aspects of female respect and loyalty. Subservience is something generally to be abhorred in any form. So, again, what is the attraction?

Some here I feel have maligned Rebecca6. She has a valid point of view, regardless of Jewely's references to our inability to integrate ourselves with the established indigenous culture. Irrespective of individual views of Christian teachings it is, and has been, these teachings which have been largely responsible for the tolerant, respectful society we see today in our anglo-saxon and european constituency. If anyone thinks otherwise, then let them identify those other origins - or do they think our values have been acquired through some form of osmosis. As for other religions, it is our fundamental tolerance which has enabled these others to flourish within our predominantly Christian society.

Jewely,

Thank you for the sites.

Actually, I was referring to Muslims in Australia being coy about speaking out about outrageous comments ... Nor indeed do they seem to speak out about issues/practices that mainstream Australians find abhorent in Islam. Yet I am sure many Muslims in Australia also find such abhorent. Until the latter make their voices heard, the image of Islam is going to be grim in this country.

I understand that there are enlightened groups overseas. Indeed some Muslims have had fatwas imposed upon them for speaking out.

Many years ago I lived in Malaya an Islamic country. Islam practiced there was quite different from what we now expect of Islam. Women wore kabyas (a diaphonous slim fitting top) and sarongs, a wisp of lace over their hair. The young women generally wore makeup. They had freedom of movement, indeed men and women danced openly together. Muslims there were tolerant of other cultures and religions.

On the other hand, we have witnessed different Islamic groups murdering each other.

We are aware of the Penal codes in Middle Eastern countries. The Iranian Penal code is absolutely horrific. Little girls of 9 yrs, and boys at puberty can be executed.

@Jewely,
Thankyou for your response,You boxed me straight away when you ask if my 'rant and telling people to chew on it' - means It is my real religious belief popping out.Grow up, you have your right to opinion and so do I.If anything, the full blooded Aussie girl in me, born and bred 6th generation, mother to six little diggers, grandaughter to a real digger was telling you that I don't really care what you think of me but get your facts right first before you have a go at those quietly serving Christians who do no harm, they are not the ones who did the damage yet they are the ones feeding the elderly, giving to the struggling and helping the homeless etc.
Middle Eastern people have been coming here for years with all their different religions as have many other cultures, they are welcome legally - "here's a home, clothes, food, and our free lifestyle, tell us what you think" unfortunately, a few choose to tell us to 'change' and when push comes to shove,well what can I say - try me! from what I see that is the way most Aussies feel.
Also I would like to say to Mohammed Ali, I agree that Australia is not a racist country, we take the mickey out of anyone, even ourselves but it is just for a laugh because we love life.Every now and then we feel a little threatened by the constancy of the media on Muslim issues. I think the fear is that when a whole lot of Muslims get together they become violent, they protest, burn things,they kill each other and call it an honour, they burn their wives, cut their little girls genitals, the insistence to carry on with traditions that are not Australian are not acceptable here. Perhaps more Australian Muslims need to speak out against the extremist in their faith..the problem is that if you do, you are putting your life at risk and therein lies our problems with that religion - not you the people.

Danni:“Actually, I was referring to Muslims in Australia being coy about speaking out about outrageous comments ...”

I’d advise them to shuddup in Aussie, they’ll get slammed here by just about everyone.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/sa-muslim-leader-fears-attacks-20110503-1e60w.html

http://www.explodingmediamyths.org.au/
“Australian Muslims and the Discourse on Terror
As early as 1912 the so called ‘Moslem menace’ was presented as cause for concern and
a looming threat to Australia’s cultural values. (1912). Supported by a history of anxiety
over Australia’s vulnerable borders and the hostile intentions of Asian neighbours, the
construction of Muslims as an antagonistic ‘other’ found fertile soil in Australia’s popular
media. The discursive construction of Muslims and Islam in the Australian media has, for
the most part, focused on Muslims as ‘other’, drawing on nationalist discourses and
cultural understandings of nationhood and national identity (Saxton 2003; Turner 2003).
Muslims are constructed as religious fanatics committed to annihilating liberal, secular
governments and replacing them with anti-modernist regimes (Brasted 2001). Little
consideration is given to the vast differences that exist among Muslims not only in terms
of ethnicity and culture but also in terms of practice.”

Danni:”Muslims there were tolerant of other cultures and religions.”

Funny old world, I lived where they weren’t particularly tolerant of each other or anyone else and still I like the individuals I knew/know. Same with Christians I have known and know. I just want people of faith all practicing different faiths and leaving everyone else alone.

I will go to whichever hell whatever religion wants, just let it be my choice.

Salt what values did Christians invent?

Becca:"Thankyou for your response,You boxed me straight away when you ask if my 'rant and telling people to chew on it' - means It is my real religious belief popping out.Grow up, you have your right to opinion and so do I.”

Never said you didn't. Gawd you’re stroppy.

Becca:”..,they kill each other and call it an honour, they burn their wives, cut their little girls genitals, the insistence to carry on with traditions that are not Australian are not acceptable here.”

Uh huh.

Rebecca6

"Perhaps more Australian Muslims need to speak out against the extremist in their faith..the problem is that if you do, you are putting your life at risk and therein lies our problems with that religion - not you the people."

And this is exactly what Pat Condell is talking about......The Koran has made the extremists, and these stone-aged camel jockeys of death, have held the worlds people at ransom for the last time. I will not have tolerances for what can be proven, as a religious crimes against humanity and its own people , and we know just to well, these people cant be reasoned with, and their beliefs have with-out doubt, have also proven that stone-aged desert people are as primitive as the men that wrote the story-books, which also includes all ancient written religious scriptures.

Prophets and Gods!

Dont you think its time to grow up?

We know all religions were man-made.

Imagine listening to someone how lived 1000's of year age, tell you how to think today....lol......You religious people.....your really something else...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4&feature=related

To all religions! Yes yes..and you:)

And if you dont like what Iam saying, why do you come round and use violence on me:) and that will prove it once and for all:)



LEAP

Now! lets have a little time out for some fun.....you know religious people........that time where you actively live with other human-beings:) Yes its true, not all religious people are mental, and some are in-fact quite normal once you get to know them:) Now! some said....All Australians take the micky as a part of Australian living, however some Australians just dont want to be Australian do they?

We really dont like your contempt to our Country and we know you wouldn't let us in yours:)

If Australia is not for you......Iam sure there's an Air-port near you:)

Peace:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE&feature=related

LEAP

Jewely,

Quite a bit beyond Tora, Tora, Tora! Look around, all the good examples in society, why, we invented them of course. All the bad, well that is from the hedonistic self-interested secretly jealous and insecure.

More power to us.

When you have the figure head and writer of a religion being a heroic warlord to be feared and follower your view of society and reality chances to be one of control and law enforcement.

It will NOT be one of personal freedoms and individual social responsibility. It will be one where you must follow the party line or be expelled or beheaded. The Arab culture is tribal not individual freedom - they despise democratic freedoms in the name of Allah

Saltpetre " we invented it "..lol.. next:) " hedonistic self-interested secretly jealous and insecure. " Well describing the human condition with out religion is evolutionary to our species. You know, a long long long time ago, humans were hedonistic on all levels [Then man not woman found a way to exploit it][in the better interests of humanity of course] and if one looks around the natural world, you will see many other life-forms enjoying the same conditions. Maybe the illustrationarys of the simple beginnings have been surpassed by some people that read "THE BOOKS" the wrong way, thus not all can be branded the same way. "Proud to be an Australian Muslim" Yes by all means.....but just as long as it balance's out with all the other Australian peoples.

You Will not Sh1t on this country! This is one of only a few places left in the world thats not going mad, and if disrupting a place of peace is your game.......well..I think QUANTAS has cheep Air flights to other sh!t-holes of your choice:)

PEACE AND ALL THAT JAZZ.

leap

Quantum,

You need to look before you leap. My post was in response to Jewely's bit of an attack on Rebecca6 (amongst other things). Jewely ingratiatingly asked me to identify what values Christian teachings had contributed to our society. I responded in like humour accordingly.

More power to real Christian values - "do unto others.." (and no jokes please about doing it first before they do it to you). I'm not that keen on "turn the other cheek" - tends to make wusses of us, and would rather "offer the other cheek, and if they go to take it, then put out their lights". My favourite universal value would be "think before you act, because rash action may hurt yourself and yours more than it hurts your enemy".

Anyhow, peace to you and yours also.

Yes David...just like your wack a mozzy campaign which makes you a bit of hypocrite:) I met a person down a Melbourne train-station once, handing out his paper-work like a true soldier, but fails to see anyone else s views or the world that he lives in. I look at this man in the eyes and found NO fighter at all, thou he may of been smacked him self once:) The one track minded friendly chap, was with-in his rights to say what he likes, but not anyone else.....bit of a shame really, I liked the humanity in this individual.

I felt, that there was No compromised notion of an intelligent being at work, But Hey! What do I know:) Iam just a 1000 things that nobody knows:) Funny old world, isn't it.

Yes, an eye for an eye.....Yes, a bit of a cliche really:) but not without warranted revenge for those you don't forgive:)

(and no jokes please about doing it first before they do it to you)

Salt babe, the world is full of hope and adventure, and that's for all living things.

Not just you.

LEAP

I believe Biblical translators/scholars will tell one that "an eye for an eye" when translated, meant compensation, not literal retribution.

Many would find this interesting

The culture of ugliness in modern Islam
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/05/04/3208020.htm

Certainly the early Islamic period witnessed codes of chivalry, with which the Crusaders came in contact, adopted and took back to the West - including 'the art of courtly love'.

However, an Iranian apostate related horrific acts that Mohammed had instigated himself. One was the rounding up of over 300 people (presumably male) stripping them and beheading all those that had pubic hair.

A question is: Did the chivalric code of Islam actually predate the Islamic period, and thus influenced the Saracens? Or was it born with Mohammed, an illiterate teacher.

Nice find Danielle. Hmm... certainly not the Christian style, they would lobby government and first establish what funding they could get from caring for the burns victims afterwards. Then they’d set up an organisation for psych evaluation and give their staff at least 6 weeks training that would be charged to the public coffers. They would then sub contract at tax payers expense the ways and means to identify and make the acceptance of help compulsory for any victims and their future children. As children emerged from what they have convinced people are mothers suffering varying degrees of post traumatic stress they would bring the children into care and again make use of public funding for all levels of their services that they would have set up in the media as being a vital service and we’d see releases from government praises them for their service to the community. You would never hear from the mothers or children again as privacy laws cover up all aspects of their practice. All abuses and failures within this system would be deemed excusable as acknowledging any responsibility would reduce funding. All children would be capable of seeking damages from government and no Christian org would ever have to lift a finger or be liable for any compensation as they reap the rewards but not accountability. Given the abuse received the next generation would not need a fire as they can prove any ward in the system has suffered abuses as the well trained counselors step back in to label the next generation of mothers. And on the system goes.

Mutawa really have to up their game and learn short term misery is not a successful strategy. When their oil runs out they better learn the Christian way to do things.

Jewely,
You will find Child welfare and social welfare funding was initially raised and administered by the Church and Para organisations that when the Government saw its socially beneficial outcome decided to fund from taxes. However there are currently welfare recipients that the Church would not fund; at least not to the current level, i.e. refugees with children living in Coastal resorts, at $1,800 p/w.

Raised, not earned by church – they’ve always taken public money either directly or through govt. They take the money the kudos and pay themselves.

What refugees do you mean Philo?

In the early days of the Church, religious orders cared for the poor and dispossessed with endowments by the wealthy. Many wealthy widows entered the Church taking money with them; then there were the large bequests (even lands) made to the Church, not only out of devotion, but also for 'masses in perpetuity' for their souls after death.

The protestant period witnessed many philanthropists giving to the poor. This was considered a sign of their devotion.

Today, In the USA and elsewhere, many organisations to help the poor and needy (and for other causes) have been established and funded by philanthropists, many of whom were/are Jewish and Christian.

All relgions have a 'clause' that the devout laity donate to the poor. Quite reasonabe really.

It’s such a load of twaddle people joining the church putting all their monies in and then going to help the little children with it. They don’t, they profit from helping children through charging excessive amounts – wouldn’t go assuming it is all Christian employees either cause they’ll take anyone they can generally to then pass the expenses on to the tax payer. Hope you don’t really have an image of little poor nuns and monks going about helping the needy after giving all their worldly possessions to the church. Its big business baby and only business now.

Reasonable it isn’t, huge rip off it is... and now I’m starting to sound like Yoda!

Jewelery,

I am not here to defend the churches. The Catholic and Anglican church is extremely wealthy. However, parish priests and clerics in other demoninations aren't. Many years ago, I knew a priest whose family purchased clothes for him; in turn he gave these to the poor. This was not uncommon.

Incidentally, I am not a christian ... so am not pushing this barrow.

There are many, many unpaid volunteers in religious organisation who give thousands of hours to the needy, not only during disasters but by the daily running of centres, such as soup kitchens, centres for distributing clothes and food for the poor, even assistance to families when in financial difficulties such as electricity bills. The money received is not a loan, but given freely.

If these organisations folded, the government would have to step in ... and the government does not have the unpaid volunteer base that the former have. What the government gives to such organisations (also non-religious ones) is a drop in the bucket compared with what they would otherwise have to find.

Also, donations given for disaster relief funnelled through government organisations are soaked up by the various adminstrative bodies, with little of the donations actually reaching those who need it. I think you will find that with non-government bodies, as mentioned above, those needing financial and practical help actually receive it with little, if indeed any, syphoning off.

You mention religious organisations, but there are many non-religious organisations who assist the poor in exactly the same way, and who function vv the government, as do the religious ones.

Also ,,, Jewelry ... I think we have rather gone off track :-)

If you note the topic,"Proud to be an Australian Muslim". Identifies a peculiar religious order of Australia. He could have said, "Proud to be Australian" or "proud to be a Muslim". What is an Australian Muslim, are they any different to a Parkistani or Egyptian Muslim?

There seems to be a nationalist cover for his pride, and to criticise his Muslim beliefs makes one unaustralian. I do not call myself an Australian Christian, though I am both Australian and Christian. One identity does not identify the other. Christianity is not identifed as Australian, though it has deeply influenced much of our freedoms and cultural heritage.

There is a subconscious agenda behind his pride - to identify a peculiar Australian Muslim culture, as though it is typically Australian. We in Australia have all the typical muslim character as we see demonstrated every where else in the world.

There is no typical Australian Muslim. So what does he mean?

Danni:”What the government gives to such organisations (also non-religious ones) is a drop in the bucket compared with what they would otherwise have to find.”

Maybe some areas of their work but others they are making a mint.

“You mention religious organisations, but there are many non-religious organisations who assist the poor in exactly the same way, and who function vv the government, as do the religious ones.”

Yep for sure but it is the Christian ones that lobby for the contracts most successfully that is advantageous to their non-christian buddies. Leaches on leaches.

Danni:“I knew a priest whose family purchased clothes for him; in turn he gave these to the poor.”

Hmm... this is something I do as well. Not for charitable reasons mind.

We so went off track. It was a strange article to begin mixing up the religion with the race.

Philo:”…and to criticise his Muslim beliefs makes one unaustralian…”

I didn’t get that bit out of the article, it was as soon as the word “racist” appeared that nothing made sense to me.

Well said Philio, it is unAustralian to criticize another for their belief. I am Australian, I am a Christian.
I go to a Church with hundreds of people, and our Church is broke, people give but the need keeps getting bigger.There is always another knock on the door.
Jewery, "Leaches on Leaches"? Church people are normal people like you giving for the sake of giving, not to get anything in return but to help another person, and we have to work hard on our attitudes in order to keep doing what we do when all we get is criticism. It is a choice the individual makes.
I personnally think a church should be broke because it gives everything away to whoever has a need.
Danni is right, most Churches and Christian organisations are self funded ( I can vouch for that), the government hardly gives anything to them, if at all.
When was the last time YOU went undercover in a brothel and purchased a little girl only to give her her life back... Destiny Rescue - self funded
Or got on a ship and went to offer free medical and supplies for those in oppressive countries - Operation Mobilization - self funded.
Or sent millions of Christmas presents to children who live in mud and have nothing - Operation Christmas Child - self funded.
Or paid for a water pump and filter to be placed in a remote town to drink stop disease? Clean Water for life - Samaritans Purse - self funded.
Or instead of buying yourself a gift for your birthday you sent a family a cow so they could generate their own funds and feed themselves? - Compassion - self funded
Lastly so as not to bore you with too many facts, sponsored a child every month with your own money so they can get their own countries education, health,clothing and supplies to have a chance to grow like we take for granted? Compassion; Destiny Rescues 26 second challenge - self funded...
A Fact is a Fact!Get back the the thread because you are wrong.

Hello Rebecca8,
I do not particularly care if you waste your precious time at church each Sunday.
The fact that your church is broke is really good news.
Please for humanity sake sell your church and everything in it, give nothing back to your head church.
Give the money raised to Doctors Without Borders.
They are the only organisation that I know that would not go into a brothel and buy an underage child only if they promise to give their life to Jesus.
You list a large number of organisations doing good deeds in the world.
But none of them could do anything more than a atheist charity if we were able to get the tax breaks that a lot of religious ones get.

oh ponde, these girls are put in a home with parents from their own culture, their circumstances are investigated and reintegration if possible with their families or educated and skilled so they can have a better life, and set up with their own independence, you speak on things you know nothing of, All this is done because we value life and the crimes committed to these girls are acknowledged as being disgusting but no-one hears their screams therefore we should just leave them?.
This is not about converting..how many times does the word love come up and is just skimmed over.
The Thread is on How a man can call himself a 'Proud Australian Muslim"..a contradictory in terms. An Australian values freedom of rights including religion and marital partners, the right to enjoy sex equally and decide our own futures plus many more. A muslim does not believe in these things demonstrated by their failure to integrate, their female circumcision, honor killings, burning of their women and raping of our women. Talk about these things and leave Churches alone, have you been to one lately, been the treasurer? It is our gathering place, they have always been and will always be, if you don't like them - don't go to one. and don't give of your money; that is the freedom we enjoy in our country. Get back on topic.

Becca I don’t think you understand what not-for-profit agencies (which includes mostly church orgs) are doing in Australia at all or what money they receive for what services. I’m not sure why you say “we” – are you speaking for all Christians here?

Becca:”I personnally think a church should be broke because it gives everything away to whoever has a need.”

Well they aren’t – they are multi-million dollar businesses with all the perks that go with it.

Them making money doesn’t bother me but the services are built on failing some of the most vulnerable members of our society and discrimination becomes legally acceptable when a church carries out a public service here.

“Danni is right, most Churches and Christian organisations are self funded ( I can vouch for that), the government hardly gives anything to them, if at all.”

That isn’t quite what Danni said and the government is more than generous, as is the tax department. That means WE ALL give generously in Australia through what is paid in taxes then distributed about to whoever gets the public contracts. Do we receive good service in return – I believe the answer is no from what I have experienced and witnessed.

You want a list of sacrifices and good works I have done for the community? Becca I suspect you are the type of person who wouldn’t appreciate what non-Christian’s give back or sacrifice just because it is right to do so and no one commanded it or demanded it, and WE don’t believe WE will receive any reward in heaven later for doing it. Yes Muslims give too; it is part of their belief system to give to the needy as well.

Becca:”A Fact is a Fact!Get back the the thread because you are wrong.”

Nope I’m not although you’re welcome to go ahead and try to prove it.

Becca:”The Thread is on How a man can call himself a 'Proud Australian Muslim"..a contradictory in terms.”

What is wrong with you?

I speak about Christian Churches but your understanding of what constitutes a Christian Church is most likely different to what my understanding is and as I have been studying and attending for 18 years, I think I will stick with my own understanding for now.
"Becca I suspect you are the type of person who wouldn’t appreciate what non-Christian’s give back or sacrifice just because it is right to do so and no one commanded it or demanded it, and WE don’t believe WE will receive any reward in heaven later for doing it".
mmmhmmm, I come from a long background of unbelieving people,with the belief that there is no God and all Churches are money hungry etc etc..heard it all before, And my parent were both Nurses who volunteered their time and ours to Nursing homes and in schools etc - just because I did not feel the compulsion to say that I respect all above board non-for-profit orgs you immediately jump down my throat assuming I do not understand..oh my. I am an Australian through to the core, would help you without question and give if I recognize a need, you judge Christians poorly.Your experience and mine are completely different, there is nothing wrong with me Jewely for quoting the title of this thread and calling it a contradiction, perhaps you forget what the forum is for?
700,000 nonprofit organisations in Australia, most of which are small and entirely dependent on the voluntary commitment of members
380,000 nonprofit organisations are incorporated in some form or another (meaning that they have a legal identity independent from their members)
35,000 nonprofit organisations employ staff
20,000 organisations with Deductible Gift Recipient status in Australia. http://www.accord.org.au/social/infobriefs/nonprofit.html (goodwill, foresight of men and women of philanthropic, humanitarian and religious convictions - so not all Christian.. off topic again

In Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, pride was perceived and portrayed as an indicator of bad manners and a sign of self-importance or superiority as reflected in the journey of Mr Darcy.

Perhaps there is some lessons modern societies can take from those times (as imperfect as they might be in other ways). There are already too many proud people who are not able to separate pride from action, policy or ideals.

It was pride and (allegedley) the Christian God speaking to President Bush that sent the US into war on the false premise of WMDs; and it is pride and Islamic jihad that sends suicide bombers into restaurants and hotels. The world does not need any more Pride or blind patriotism.

What about more tolerance, more equality (less disparity) and an enhanced sense of humanity starting at the personal level and extending into the local, national and foreign arenas. What about kindness. Give me kindness over pride anyday.

Article revisited.

The author is unhappy about an indicated level of mistrust held by a portion of the Oz public towards the followers of Islam. Why would this be?

I expect our author has been in Oz for a while, but we don't know how long. Although Oz has had some Muslim residents for a great many years, there has been a substantial increase in this population in recent years, and during that period many disturbing events have occurred overseas, and some in Oz itself. Will these events have had an impact on an Oz viewpoint? Of course. Does the author address this? No. Does the author address the possible impact of these events on how Oz Muslims view their faith? No. A little one-sided? Maybe.

From memory, Saddam used chemical warfare on the Iraqi Kurds, and with his Sunni followers maintained power over the Shiia population with secret police, fear and repression. Sunni and Shiia continue to oppose each other in various quarters, without qualm about using car bombs. Taliban and fundamentalists continue to harass and kill civilians who fail to comply with their strict regimen. Iran is repressive and supposedly wants nuclear weapons. Why? To wipe out Israel perhaps? Somebody gave us 9/11 as a date to be remembered. Somebody changed our view of Bali. Somebody did the Bangkok Hilton....

In Oz, a group (of good ol' Aussies?) wanted to attack the Holdsworthy army barracks and kill a few soldiers; an Imam tried to condone rape of Aussie girls "because they were asking for it" - in his opinion. What a wonderful message from a spiritual leader.

More recently we have Tunisia, Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Bahrain, Syria... Discontent by ordinary people. All unrelated? Maybe. A common view and following of Islam? Does not look like it.

Did our author attempt to unravel any of the questions relating to Islam and its following, why it's ok for some to be suicide bombers? Many questions - unanswered. Many causes to ask what next? Where will it end? And, ultimately, who can you trust?

>> And, ultimately, who can you trust? <<

Obviously not people who believe their religion is the only one true religion.

Rebecca6,
Leaving churches out of it I fully agree with you.

I am on the Board of an organisation that is not religious based or a Church organisation giving opportunity and life skills to mildly intellectually handicapped young people. Some on the Board do not attend a Church some attend different Churches and all do not receive a cent for our time. Though we have 8 full time staff and 30 casual paid staff.

The idea that church members coorporate projects are tax exempt is a red herring, as members pay tax on their earnings and use some of their earnings to cooperatively assist people struggling in life, similarly with Rotary or Lions etc.

I have yet to jump down your throat Becca.

Becca: “…there is nothing wrong with me Jewely for quoting the title of this thread and calling it a contradiction, perhaps you forget what the forum is for?”

You actually said, and I quote:

“The Thread is on How a man can call himself a 'Proud Australian Muslim"..a contradictory in terms.”

The threads title is ‘Proud to be an Australian Muslim’ – I didn’t spot “How a man can call himself…”

You don’t like Muslims; I get it loud and clear. I was just wondering what was wrong with you – I’d like to know if you’ve met them all or what made you dislike over a billion and a half people in the world or did you read something in the news and then apply it to every Muslim there ever was and ever will be?

You do however accuse me of judging people. I don’t judge Christians by the way; I judge certain Australian Christian NGO’s and their cohorts poorly, and worse.

Telling me how many NGO’s are in Australia doesn’t actually prove I was wrong about anything… ever… in my whole life.

Jewely, again with the accusations. There is no issue here for any human being coming to our country legally. There is no issue with them believing what they want. But seriously, do you have any idea of what you are defending? Sorry I added to the thread line - I do believe I added colons to "Proud Australian Muslim" and that is what he called himself isnt it? Or did I read the Article wrong? Are you blind to what they are doing to anyone not just Christians?
Now to Your quotes on the Church"They profit from helping children through charging excessive amounts – wouldn’t go assuming it is all Christian employees either cause they’ll take anyone they can generally to then pass the expenses on to the tax payer. Hope you don’t really have an image of little poor nuns and monks going about helping the needy after giving all their worldly possessions to the church. Its big business baby and only business now", "it is the Christian ones that lobby for the contracts most successfully that is advantageous to their non-christian buddies. Leaches on leaches";"that means WE ALL give generously in Australia through what is paid in taxes then distributed about to whoever gets the public contracts";"Them making money doesn’t bother me but the services are built on failing some of the most vulnerable members of our society and discrimination becomes legally acceptable when a church carries out a public service here".
In fact, you didn't read the link did you, it is the statistics of how many NGO's are in Oz,not all Religious and only a portion receive tax breaks. Also, Christians pay their taxes too and THEN they give their $ then they give their time/ food/ services.
I do think Muslims of the Islamic faith could not assimilate into the Australian cultural attitude - is that still the wrong wording for you?(How does one fail the vulnerable members of society if they didnt make them that way but gave to them when they asked..does centre link just give to you if you ask?)

Becca:”do you have any idea of what you are defending?”

Yep. I’d defend Christians the same if someone tried to say they are ALL bad too.

Becca:“Are you blind to what they are doing to anyone not just Christians?”

What some are doing you mean. Nope but Christians wanted laws in place to benefit religion and now they will find any religion can benefit. Aren’t they silly duffers.

Becca:“In fact, you didn't read the link did you, it is the statistics of how many NGO's are in Oz,”

I never said it was only Church NGO’s. So if I go stare at how many businesses are in Australia it will somehow prove all the church NGO’s being funded huge amounts aren’t failing who they are paid to protect? I doubt they signed anything saying they will protect anyone – that would be dumb. I still don’t get what point you are trying to make.

Becca:” I do think Muslims of the Islamic faith could not assimilate into the Australian cultural attitude - is that still the wrong wording for you?”

Go ask the families of Muslims that have been here since the early 1900’s and ask them how they like your wording.

Becca:”(How does one fail the vulnerable members of society if they didnt make them that way but gave to them when they asked..does centre link just give to you if you ask?)”

I don’t know how centrelink operates or how that makes sense. But you fail a vulnerable person by not keeping them safe after you have been paid handsomely to do so and then by profiting from furthering their misery, as I watch Church NGO’s do every day. They won’t get in trouble later though as it is govt departments that are the lead agency. More tax payer money to compensate for bad service.

Becca:”Also, Christians pay their taxes too and THEN they give their $ then they give their time/ food/ services.”

Maybe they should ask where the money goes. Non-Christians do all the same stuff just for different reasons Becca.

Mr MO
please answer the following:
1. under islam, when is it permissable to stone a woman to death?
2. under islam, what would be appropriate punishment for your teenage daughter if she wanted to be a Christian?

Your answers will tell you (and us) why you cant be an Australian and a muslim at the same time.