I would like to point out, though, that actually being a tolerant person does not mean that you are un-Christian. In fact, it is quite possible to show many personal traits, characteristics and values that you do not share with Christians, and still be a good person.

Or a bad one, come to that (Pericles)

Exactly Pericles...and if people removed a great deal of "ego" within oneself, as opposed to self esteem, many genuine, positive attributes regarding respect, equality and compassion shown towards others would 'shine' through, improving our Australian peoples way of life.

Lexi, great points and Happy Easter to both of you.

I realise that in telling Jim and poor ignorant runner what my and most other peoples relatives fought for I forgot to tell them one other thing:

*my* rellies, including the uncles that came back, one from each of the world wars, *did not* and I suspect never would give a fig about muslims or homosexuality. Love of family and the hope that that the fight contributed to their protection was a unifying theme in their few letters and in childhood discussion with uncles. "King and country" "god and honour" and other such trivial guff didn't get a look in.

Had I or my children been either homosexual or muslim or both, this would have in no way lessened their resolve to fight to protect their family. Jim Wallace suggests they might not have and this both not true and deeply offensive in a manner that I find undermines any military respect he might otherwise tout. Is that why *he* joined the army? to scrag some fags and ragheads? Would Jim *not* have fought to protect Australian citizens if they are gay or muslim? I believe my antecedents would if alive fight now for *my* right to be anything I want, and if Jim and runner don't like it they could kindly just stay sullen and silent.

If loyalty to country does not stem from love of family, it is a shallow and perverted thing, as Jim has demonstrated and runner clearly does not understand.

Now there is a non-church inspired value that underpins our nation, and all others, from the dawn of recorded history, and you can paste it in your hat.

Rusty

Are Christians really the source of Oz values?

I don't suppose the Christmas and Oestre holidays compensate for all the discrimination against women, homosexuals, other religions and beliefs, do they?

But the weather has been great and my sister and her wonderful family were able to visit me, thanks be universe.

I think it's a wishful construction to say Christianity is 'the source of Australian values'.

But Christianity - in various forms - has been a significant part of our culture since European settlement, and has affected our social values in various ways.

In some ways this was good: qualities of patience, forgiveness, compassion.

In other ways Christianity was interpreted as vengeful and judgemental; and a legitimising Ideology for the social order.

With the sexual revolution and the arrival of multiculturalism Christianity has had to adapt; and these have comprised new and also powerful influences upon our 'national culture'.

But as a liberal who is also a socialist - without even mentioning my Christianity - it is important to recognise for Christians the same rights granted to any number of other communities: religious, spiritual, political, cultural, economic...

I am worried that the tone of debate in this country is tending towards intolerance, such as to threaten the principles of liberal pluralism and voluntary association I mentioned earlier. Christianity may seem like an easy target in this sense for some; But once you set a precedent all manner of groups may as well ask 'where would it end'?

There is the ban on the burqa in France for instance; and much of the Left in this country would oppose a similar move on the basis of the liberal rights of Islamic individuals and the integrity of cultures in a multicultural society. (I would agree with that stance)

But by the same token would we deny these rights to Christians? Why the hated by some of Christianity and Christians when the liberal rights, and rights to self-determination - of more conservative religious communities - goes without question? By the same token: why not sensitivity and attempts at understanding with Christianity, when this goes without question for other often more-conservative religious movements?

Philo:
"Patriotism is fighting for thr things one loves and values".
Sounds sublime, what are these "things" and "values"?
If that were true, that patriotism was something genuinely noble, I'd be all for it. But it's ignoble. As far as I can tell it's a primitive state of social programming, a hive mentality based on fear, aggression and defensiveness. More often than not patriotism is an irrational impulse that rationalises a host of sins in war and peace.

It's a funny thing but I've hated patriotism-nationalism-conservatism for as long as I can remember, long before I had the slightest inkling why. I come from a family of patriots and servicemen; my mother lost her father at Arnhem, her brother in the Blitz, my father saw active service, I had two brothers in the navy and I was in the Army when the Falklands war started and everyone was desperate for some of the action, not because there was any kind of threat, (from the Argentinians for Christ's sake!) just sheer bravado, what the ladies love to weep over and wrap the flag in while their men are given licence to indulge every unspeakable crime imaginable. The reality of war is rape, pillage, infanticide, indeed anything bestial you care to imagine. War is the official suspension of civilities, the free reign of the id, All in the name of King and country. That's the irony, withal the testosterone it's pure subservience!
During the unendurable periods of peace, patriotism gets its kicks by keeping itself primed with all the "values" that serve as the sublime foil. Patriotism is a bully, a sanctimonious prick, literally. God help anyone who dares demur; a white feather is the best he can hope for.
What does love of country mean? It's something that's drummed into us and we seem naturally susceptible to the romance, the faux-discipline (foreplay) and the pretenscious pageantry of it all.
Humans are full of sh!t but they transcend themselves when there's a war in the offing, or one to be reminisced.

Would anyone care to spellout what the "values" of patriotism are?

Tristan

>> qualities of patience, forgiveness, compassion <<

Are not the exclusive preserve of christianity, are positive attributes of humans beings whether they are religious or not and were in use 1000's of years before someone thought virgin birth and resurrection would be a good hook for a religion.

OZ values are a mix of every culture that has arrived to live in this great land starting with aboriginals well over 40,000 years ago.

Now please get over yourselves.