Comparing Israel to apartheid South Africa is like comparing Australia to National/Socialist Germany.

This author should know better. He should not bend facts and history to suit his self-flagellating worldviews. Israel is not occupying anyone's land. Show the readers you want to dupe into believing this fabrication of occupation and apartheid, show them any map with internationally recognised borders or any historical reference to what you call the state or nation of Palestine. Neither a country nor a nation nor a people of Palestine existed - before the grandfather of terrorism, comrade Yaser Arafat, invented this concoction in 1985. Show them how many Arab/Muslims live freely in Israel and sit in parliament and in the media and everywhere else side-by-side with Israelis and Christians and Agnostics of all colours. No matter whether they are straight or gay. And then, dear Mr Hypocrite, go in your "State of Palestine" - or any other Islamic paradise for that matter, and point out to your readers all the gay Jews and Christians and Agnostics in THEIR parliament and media and administration and schools. Go! Show them! Let facts speak louder than false propaganda and vile fabrications.

Palestine is nothing but the name of a region, like the Riverina or the Hunter Valley in our language. A name given by the occupying Romans to the lands of Judea and Samaria. Look at the 1922 maps of the league of Nations and the 1948 UN resolutions which form the basis of Israel and the 2-state solution for the region of Palestine. Then everyone can see who is really the occupier. And then perhaps tell your readers about the A, B and C zones in the West Bank. And tell them about who really rules in Gaza after Israel gave it to the PA as a gesture of good will. And then tell them about the thousands of civilians blown to bloody pieces in their busses and cafes and schools, before this wall and the checkpoints have been put up as a last resort. C'mon, show facts, not vile fabrications. Your readers deserve so much.

While it is pleasing to see an article such as this written by a Palestinian and a Jew, the concern by the writers for anything appearing in the Australian Jewish News that Australia is the ‘laughing stock of the world’, referring to the BDS actions by Marrickville, should be totally disregarded, totally.

This is a captive mouthpiece for the parasitic Australian Zionists, which number among their ranks Frank Lowy of Westfield fame, a very active Golani commando from the murderous days of Israeli terror against the Palestinians and the Prime Minister, who owes her position to the Melbourne Zionists, the breeding ground of hatred. Through this cell with 'sayanims' working through the night against BDS and opinions by Australians against the evil that is Israel, often in these columns, special taxation deals to support their real home in the middle east and hacking the internet to stop people reading the real truth such as found in the Murdoch / Fox News pap, served up daily. Well organised, well funded from Israel and with smart political connections. It is an anti-Australian fifth column.

As for Gerard Henderson, he is not regarded seriously as are others from Fairfax.

For the BDS, the danger rests with the power hungry nature of the current PM, hopefully a short term appointment for this proven liar. Her ability to secure patronage from Israel for their “Leadership Conferences” in Israel for which she has been an active participant and promoter, has made her ability to act on foreign policy in this country, totally and utterly compromised. She does not now and never has represented the people’s voice and has been in the clutches of cunning manipulators who, it must be said, have done a good job for her by removing Kevin Rudd, and she has now gathered around her a cabal of like-minded sycophants.

So a Jewish headline in a Jewish propaganda medium pales when compared to political influence being successfully waged daily per courtesy of the submissive tool of the Melbourne Zionists.

Voting for Gillard is voting against Palestine, justice and the BDS, clearly.

The irony is that as racist as the apartheid system was in South Africa, racism now under the current Government is much worse. Obviously it does not count now because the whites and semi coloured are often at the receiving end. Corruption and crime has increased dramaticlly but don't let that stop the people more interested in dogma than the welfare of people from gloating.

Look at what the Israelites have done with the land since once again ( a fact always conveniently ignored) taking possession of the promised land. The odds against Israel always brings out the best in them. Simple fact is that people and nations that are favourable towards God's chosen people will be blessed. Those who despise God's people (usually disguised in some political dogma) will be cursed. Imagine how quickly the land of Israel would be turned to wasteland again should others take over their territory. Most members of the Greens despise Israel simply becasue of the God of Israel.

Local Councils are not paid by their ratepayers to make foreign policy declarations - otherwise they run the risk of being considered student politicians.

It should be noted that the State of Israel hasn't sought to amend Marrickville Council's core business, such as the water and sewerage budget.

Pete

It's great to have an article on OLO by a Jewish person that counters the hysteria and disinformation frequently peddled by the Singer.

BDS should have been applied to Israel decades ago and America should have been pushed out of its false, duplicitous role as 'honest broker' as well.

In fact, the BDS treatment should have also been applied to the U.S. because it was supporting and arming the brutal Israeli Regime and encouraging their cruelty and oppression of the Palestinians.

Then hypocrisy never worries the U.S.

http://dangerouscreation.com

Thanks Antony and Moammar, it's always refreshing to read the facts surrounding the issue of Israeli apartheid.

For those who still doubt that Israel does in fact practise apartheid, please consider the following sources:

<a href="http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Media_Release-378.phtml">Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa (HSRC) study</a> : Israel is practicing both colonialism and apartheid in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).
<a href="http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/greenstein220810.html">Israel/Palestine and the Apartheid Analogy: Critics, Apologists and Strategic lessons (Part 1) by Ran Greenstein</a>
<a href="http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/greenstein270810.html">Israel/Palestine and the Apartheid Analogy: Critics, Apologists and Strategic Lessons (Part 2) by Ran Greenstein</a>

South African Na'eem Jeena amongst others considers the apartheid practised by Israel as worse than that practised by South Africe.

One should have known that an article written jointly be a Jew and a Palestinian as today would attract comments from the army of sayanims out there doing the bidding of the Israeli terrorists. As friends of our disgraced PM, trying to bring this country to the stage that the US has now reached, subservient to Zionism in the Congress, the Senate and with Obama and his disciples.

Not here, thanks PM.

One is motivated to quote the words of that murderer Ariel Sharon, from Shatila and Sabra massacre fame, when he said in an interview with Amoz Oz, Davar, December 17, 1982, after Sharon’s invasion and genocide of Lebanon in 1982......
“We might use Nuclear arms…Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us. … And I don’t mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. … “What you don’t understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.”

This is the Ariel Sharon philosophy that must be known by Ms Gillard as a Zionist supporter.....Remember that fact!...These are the people who push her buttons, possibly craft her own personal foreign policy, but certainly not for the citizens of Australia who want to see Palestinians saved from bondage and cruel, inhumane treatment.

‘Runner’ has said...” Imagine how quickly the land of Israel would be turned to wasteland again should others take over their territory”. Wasteland, says ‘Runner’?
That’s exactly what the Israelis have made Palestine.

Since Hitler, no other country has shown such contempt for a people as has Israel to the Palestinians since 1948. Even the Balkan cleansing doesn’t compare. Nothing compares except for the treatment they received at the hands of the Nazis.

As Sharon said, “the dirty work of Zionism is not finished, far from it.”

Not in Australia, Ms Gillard.

“I am a black South African, and if I were to change the names, the description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would be a description of what is happening in South Africa”

Wrong. The black South Africans were (and still are) a peaceful lot. They were unarmed and when they received control they treated the white population with forgiveness and compassion (even better than their Rhodesian counterparts). How can they possibly be compared with the Gazan lot of fully-armed fantaic Jihadists who, if given what they want, would slaughter all Israelis to the last woman and baby.

Nevertheless, one evil does not cancel another. The Arab/Muslim murderous intentions do not justify Israeli settlement.

In 1967, the Arab countries decided to get rid of Israel and throw its inhabitants to the sea. They failed and at that time Israel took over those cursed territories. Due to Arab ongoing attitudes, Israel has no choice but to hold onto the West-Bank (including East-Jerusalem) and Golan-Heights as military buffer zones, that is until the above attitudes change and it is safe to withdraw (fortunately Israel was since able to rid itself of the Sinai desert and of the Gaza strip).

While Israel is waiting (or at least should wait) for conditions to be safe for withdrawal, it has no right to settle civilians in those military buffer zones. Only the Israeli army has the right to patrol those areas and take whatever measures are necessary to protect Israel itself. Incidental damages to the local population (who now call themselves "Palestinians") should be minimized, but one must understand that sadly they cannot be eliminated completely and that the Arabs brought it on themselves by declaring war on Israel.

Sadly the UN resolution condemning the settlements did not pass. I hope the next one will. I do support BALANCED sanctions that are directed at the settlements and not at the general Israeli population.

It's interesting to recall that when most of the world had imposed sanctions on the Apartheid regime, Israel continued to train the South African security forces and sell them armaments.

Maybe there is some similarity after all.

Then again, Britain sold Gadaffi the weapons he's now using against his own people. Business is business I suppose.

"It's interesting to recall that when most of the world had imposed sanctions on the Apartheid regime, Israel continued to train the South African security forces and sell them armaments."

Yes, it is interesting, if not for a simple explanation - very few other countries were willing to be Israel's friends at the time because nobody wanted to be at loggerheads with the oil-producing Arab countries. The South-Africans were willing, so as the world's black sheep (even before 1967), Israel could not afford be too selective.

It breaks my heart reading those comments about the unfair tribulations facing poor brave Israel , & the churlish opposition it is forced to endure .
Actually , that is an overstatement . In truth , I do not care a cracker more for Israel than it cares for me or anyone or anything other than itself ... ie absolutely nothing .
The solution to Israel's problem is not to treat it better because , as we have seen - give Israel an inch , & it will take a mile .
The solution to Israel's problem is to deliver it a request to improve its behavoiur , & support that request with threat or a promise ie give Israel a REASON to behave - because it certainly will not behave itself unless it has to .

Dear Oz,

Thank you, that's a very good point.

I see that you humble yourself, but in reality you care for Israel more than it cares for itself when you propose to do what it takes in order to bring it back to the straight-and-narrow. Israel really needs that good whack on its bottom, so thank you again on Israel's behalf.

Please be kind enough to have some similar care for the poor Palestinians as well, especially the Hamas of Gaza, since they also need plenty of help in arriving at the straight-and-narrow.

Israel does not need a smack on the bottom, Yuyutsu. It needs to be moved somewhere else, somewhere where it can't antagonize the majority of people who live in the region by its gross, brutal, criminal behaviour.

If the Israeli Jews can make the desert bloom, why not move them into the Sahara? There is plenty of desert there.

P.S. Of course, they would have to be disarmed otherwise they would start taking over their neighbors.

Thank you for your honesty, David G.

Israel started its way on the straight-and-narrow, but has admittedly strayed, especially since 1967.

However, as you state, even an Israel that does tread the straight-and-narrow is unacceptable to you, nor was it ever acceptable to some of the Arabs or to the malign-new-left.

With such an attitude, what hope have you of bringing Israel back to the straight-and-narrow? None, but you are not interested in it either. You want Israel destroyed, and perhaps you will even succeed, but only at the price of having the rest of the world killed off as well in a nuclear winter. Thanks.

Yuyutsu, you have put into words what the whole world fears: that Israel, driven by its blind religious fanaticism, will destroy the whole world rather than give up its narrow, elitist agenda.

Thanks you for your honesty but the idea that less than 1% of the world's population will destroy the world for the other 99% is farcical and delusional.

America is to blame for this terrible predicament. After all, it created Israel's military might.

David,

Will you accept Israel at all if it does come back to the straight-and-narrow, if it does give up its religious-fanatic agenda as Oz and I wish it will?

Whatever the history, the existing options are now two:
1. Israel existing and the world too.
2. Israel destroyed and the world too.

I leave it in your hands.

Actually it was the French who contributed most to Israel's military power, by the French:

- building Dimona's plutonium producing reactor and reprocessing facilities

- jointly deveoping nuclear weapons in France for French and Israeli use

- jointly testing these nuclear weapons in the Sahara, North Africa

- supplying the Jericho IRBM missiles to Israel to project those nuclear weapons

- and mainly to deter the vastly more numerous Arab aggressors.

The Israeli's then promised the Russians (who were arming Egypt, Syria and Jordan etc) in the early 70s that if Israel looked as though it might go under then several Soviet targets, including Moscow, would be obliterated by the Jerichos.

The mouse that roared.

Moscow decided that its socialist comradeship with the Arab world was not worth it.

The French helped Israel due to guilt over Vichy Jewish annihilation policies in World War Two and due to large amounts of money contributed by those who cared from all over the (non-Muslim) world.

Pete

Dear Yuyutsu ,
I see more options than the "take it or leave it" choices that you list in your post of 2 Mar 2011 8.53.10 .

The world could wake up to what is going on - ie Australian foreign policy which favours Israel ,(for whom I have a semi-permanent soft spot, irrespective of its effect on Australia)...supported by Australian politicians, whose actual talent would not keep them in office without the highly organized Australian Israel lobby .

It is entirely possible that thinking Australia (even Australian/Israeli citizens) will see Israel as an unreliable & unsustainable member of the world community .

Dear Oz,

Can you be more specific about the options that you found?

You seem to attribute the survival of our incompetent politicians to the Israel-lobby. That is theoretically possible, but according to Occam's razor, the more simple and likely explanation is that the pollies of the other major party are not brighter.

I am more than open to hear about innovative ideas on how to sanction the Israeli government without placing the burden on ordinary Israeli citizens who are not at fault and are likely to be victims of that government themselves.

Dear Yuyutsu ,
Thank you for waiting . I hope you have .
Sorry to say , I think that the option of a boycott of Israel has got to be inevitable , so long as Israel behaves as it has become accustomed .
For me , it is unrealistic to attempt to divorce and insulate the known behaviour of the Israeli government from the Israeli citizens (the victims of the proposed boycott) who knowingly elected that precise government . I could not say that if we were discussing eg. Libia .
The "take it or leave it" ultimatum you pose - ie. "shut up or Israel will nuke you" leaves me cold , & loosens Israel's hold on my attitude .
I support a boycott of Israel at the present moment .

Dear Oz,

I think we are in perfect agreement. Some boycott of Israel is inevitable, but I would like it to be mild-to-moderate in a way that will minimize the pain of ordinary Israelis, ESPECIALLY those who did not vote for the current government, and there are a lot of those and they despise the actions of the current Israeli government not less than yourself (and myself).

The "Take it or leave it" option was taken out of context:
We both would like to see Israel reformed, but that specific message was addressed to David G., who seems (since no reply was given) to reject the very existence of Israel EVEN if it reformed, even if it behaved like an angel or like Mother Theresa. As far as David G. is concerned, it seems (unless he cares to respond and refute it), that all Israelis should die in the Sahara desert (I have my theory on how that feat of making the desert bloom could happen once, but it will not happen again).

If Israel is given the option "Reform or suffer hardships", there is a good chance that it will reform, but if it is told instead to shove itself to the Sahara desert and die there, or else it will be nuked by Iran or otherwise destroyed, then it is only the most reasonable response to reply "If you kill me, then you go along too and the whole world who doesn't care for our lives may join us just as well". Even the Israeli peace-camp would agree with that.

I am sad that the UN resolution to condemn Israel's settlements did not pass.

I support a very GRADUAL AND CONDITIONAL boycott of Israel that will tip the internal balance there in the direction of peace and sanity. I do not support an impossible and overwhelming ultimatum that will only serve to bring all Israelis to huddle together in desperation despite their obvious differences.

Dear Yuyutsu ,
Your devotion to sweet reason , & your goodwill is lasting the distance , but I think your argument is wearing too thin .
How to sell the idea to the open minded (even to the seriously pro-Israel open minded)that, faced with your proposal , Israel would in its present mood publicly give up , change its spots & stop settlements.
I think that the Israeli government (And the Israeli public) has been effectively programmed & conditioned to see its foreign policy as a game of Chicken.
Drawing another line in the sand (it's been done before) would fetch a smile or two from Israel & its supporters but , I can see nothing more to expect than a continued game of Chicken .
Why should Israel come to heel ? Where is the NEED ?
I think that what is needed is an offer that Israel cant refuse .

Dear Oz,

"Drawing another line in the sand"

Indeed, this time the line should be drawn in concrete and we just missed the golden opportunity for that. The international community through the UN and its security council should declare uneqivocally that settlement in the occupied territories is NOT ON. Israel will just have to oblige.

A simple sanction to begin with, that will not hurt ordinary Israelis, is for any Israeli politician who contributes to settlements past the date of the formal and binding resolution, to be declared persona-non-grata and not be allowed to visit anywhere in the world (or if s/he does, be placed on trial for war-crimes).

(where is the need, you ask? well Israeli politicians, like any other Israeli, have the need to go out of their small country from time to time to breath some fresh air)

But alas, America has betrayed its best friend, Israel, at its time of need and placed a veto on the most sensible and balanced UN resolution which the whole world other than them agrees to. America does not want peace in the Middle-East, nor does it care for Israel or its integrity. The least they could do was to stop giving tax-exempt status to donations of American Jews towards settlements and revoke the American citizenship of those who settle in the west-bank, but instead they only care for their own ambitions, topped by their desire for armageddon.

Dear Yutyusu ,
I can't improve on your idea , except to push for full-blown & very widespread sanctions which directly bight the ordinary Israeli citizens , whom their government is supposed to be looking after .
Such sanctions would , of course , be indignantly scoffed at & otherwise ignored for quite a long time . But I think that powder-puff sanctions would be greeted with just as much indignation as would more severs sanctions , but would be laughed at louder - AND would simply draw things out .
There is no reason to think that present day Israelis & supporters are any more amenable to outside interference (or any less inclined to save face),than were Rhodesia or South Africa .
A more fundamental problem is how to get ANY sanction against Israel off the ground ?
You explanation tells us why the US would not agree to sanctioning Israel (also , US politicians would not target their counterparts in a friendly country).
Neither Julia Gillard nor Kevin Rudd (not a statesman between them) have the altruism or the honesty to suggest ANY sanction of Israel , as that would upset their hard line Israel-&-US-supporting supporters , & place in jeopardy their own personal interests (careers , now & after politics).
What Israel is doing is , in my opinion , definitely not sustainable (they are flying with absolutely no margin at all) , & that can't last forever .Do those people have a plan ?
God ! Do we have to look to PEOPLE POWER for a solution ?

Dear Oz,

"Do those people have a plan?"

Everyone in Israel has a plan.
The problem is... it's not the same plan!

Israel is such a divided country that it is one of the world's wonders how did all those different people come together to be presented as a single nation. However, the answer is not far fetched: it was Hitler that made no distinctions and would send every one of them to the gas chambers, no matter what they believed in or what plan they had. The fear of a second Hitler, currently in the form of Ahmadenijad, is probably the only thing that unites all Israelis.

If sanctions became too harsh so that Israelis get the sense of "no escape", then they will be forced to unite despite otherwise hating each other, just as Jews of all persuations who otherwise fought bitterly among them, united to fight the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto. In that case, Israel will turn itself into a new Massada and a deadly nuclear end will follow suit.

On the other hand, milder sanctions will tip the balance, propelling the non-extreme, practical right-wingers into what they consider "a compromise". Netanyahu himself is among the above. He not only plays chicken, but is essentially a chicken himself and has no desire for martyrdom. He likes being in power, he likes the luxuries that come with it (and his wife Sarah demands it!). Some of his colleagues, including from his own party, will scream, some will even attempt to assassinate him, but if he survives their attempts, then he will lead Israel towards peace. Not everyone in Israel can be pressured of course, but he can.

The big problem, I agree, is "how to get ANY sanction against Israel off the ground?".

I'm afraid it will take patience. The pressure on Israel is probably misplaced, it should be on America instead, gradually hammering away its irrational objection to discipline Israel (along with its own fundamentalists).

Dear Yuyutsu ,
Interestingly , your comments on Netanyahu are what I guessed , without a properly supporting factual basis . I do not doubt your assessment .
Neither Gillard nor Rudd are in his class of sublty or effectiveness ,but they seem to share his weakness & predictability in the chicken department , for similar reasons .
It is clear that Israel is in a deep hole , & I recently saw some good advice on a blog ,to a US a politician who was in a deep hole (for other reasons) , & I think that this advice applies to Israel
- ie. 'when you find yourself in a hole , STOP DIGGING'

Why has Israel not stopped digging ?
If Israeli opinion is so divided as you say - if Israel is not a bunch of consenting lemmings , following each other in a mob over the cliff ,then why are the dissenters in the community so powder-puff ineffective in rolling the foreign policy which is taking them to their doom ?
Why don't they (the PEOPLE POWER) like you , pull their fingers out & show a little more verve & effectiveness in getting Israel out of denial & into solution mode ?

Dear Oz,

In yesterday's news, the most likely candidate to head Israel's Labor party, Shelly Yehimovitz, declared that if elected, she will place the peace-process on the back-burner. It's not that they don't want peace, it's not that they like the settlements, but as Shelly puts it, for too long they have been fighting the windmills to no avail and meanwhile the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer, so it's time to revisit the traditional Labor agenda and concentrate on social issues, which were neglected in Israel for decades.

Israelis are divided on several axis, not only on peace. Religion is a heavy one and classical social issues is another, now re-emerging. In all that, a coalition must somehow be formed, and since including Arab parties in coalition is considered a taboo, the coalition must include at least 56% of Jewish votes, which is tough.

The current coalition is between Hate, Fear and Rich. Netanyahu and most of his followers are not on the side of Hate, but on the sides of Fear and of the Rich. Such fear is fanned by people like David G. who would not accept Israel in any shape or form and only wish to throw its inhabitants into the sea or to the Sahara desert. Let's face it, there are many such people in the Middle-East. What Shelly now proposes is a coalition between Hate, Fear and the Poor, rather than stay with Peace, but in opposition (since Peace and Hate don't combine).

As a result, there is a general feeling of hopelessness, of despondence, so young and able people whom you would expect to form "PEOPLE POWER" are leaving the country instead, one by one, while the settlers and their supporters, most of which consider themselves religious, follow the biblical commandment "be fruitful and multiply" to the letter, so demography worsens and time is of the essence.

There is not more you can do with those who hate the situation anyway, but you CAN appeal to the large Fear-camp, you can simultaneously offer them assurances as carrots and sanctions as stick.

Dear Yuyutsu ,
We all know that sinking feeling . It spares no one .
I freely admit to no expertise in this area , only a strong belief that Israel cannot hope to survive (as her people would like) without peace .
What would I know but , if you wish to draw me out , then I think that Shelly is looking to tap the current mood (which will not last) & poach a few votes & cement her career .
Promising affluence to the needy but excluding peace is a pot-boiler policy , not a solution . It seems also very opportunistic & SELF INDULGENT - the latter vice being the comfortable enemy of many a nation , not excluding Israel .
Shelly's policy will probably serve her (but not Israel) well .
If you require even more from the peanut gallery , then I would respectfully offer the idea that the Religiosi & the Settlers are very luxurious passengers that Israel cannot afford at this unforgiving moment in time .
Yuyutsu , I think that what Israel needs is , not softer treatment , but more goodwill from those outside the Israeli camp-followers .

Dear Oz,

"I think that what Israel needs is , not softer treatment , but more goodwill from those outside the Israeli camp-followers"

Israel needs both goodwill and firmness.
It needs to be treated like a drunk, not like a hard-core criminal.
Go tell a drunk angrily "We'll kill you" and the result is going to be very ugly. Instead, put a caring but firm arm on their shoulder and tell them clearly "come this way", but then of course you are also responsible to make sure that the way you take them is free of obstacles.

I also repeat: there is no point appealing to the despondent peace camp and no point appealing to the hate-filled Jewish-supremacist settlers either, but you CAN appeal to those in between who live in fear, who only seek security, who could accept peace if they only felt safe enough, if they did not see an enemy behind every shadow trying to take their lives. They are not paranoid, their fear is based on a certain reality, which we can find even here on this forum. The world needs to give them serious and sound assurances, as a peace-treaty by itself would not be considered safer than the paper on which it is written. Unfortunately the Middle-Eastern environment is not too conducive to peace.

In order to bring peace and remove the settlements, the world needs to put a wedge between the hateful settlers and their security-minded coalition.

According to a new proposed Israeli law, which just passed its first reading on Monday and proceeded to committee-stage, calling publically for a boycott against Israel or even just against the settlers will become a criminal offence, punishable by indefinite fines that will go towards compensating the "victim", i.e. the settlers.

Accordingly, as I do visit my family in Israel from time to time and have no desire to hand over my savings to those beasts, I may not be able in the future to state my support for boycotting the settlers over these pages, but I will still do my best to avoid their products (which is a pity, some of them are of really good quality and value).

Following is a list of products that are produced, wholly or partially by settlers in the occupied territories:

http://gush-shalom.org.toibillboard.info/boycott_eng.htm

Should that information be removed from the web, please keep it up on other websites.

The proposed law is supposedly against "harming Israel", but in fact, pressuring Israel to return to sanity is only for its own good.

I support Israel. I support a sober and sane Israel.

Brave Yuyutsu . Would I have the guts to do that ?
His intervention thoughtfully avoids targeting "innocents" back in Israel who are , meanwhile , intentionally squandering their "innocent" status by not only running dead on the Settlement issue , but also on the Peace issue . Where is the innocence in that ?
They are bleeding what is left of the dwindling goodwill for Israel in the world that exists outside Israel. I can only see them as luxurious self-serving passengers (along with the Settlers & Supremacists)who are white-anting Israel's future .
It is uncivilized of them to bludge on Yuyutsu & his ilk , leaving him to carry the can , attempting to remove obstacles to the goodwill that Israel desperately needs if a sustainable solution is to remain as an option .
I salute Yuyutsu .The Jews running & manning Israel do not deserve him .And a lot of them will go for his throat now .
But , I still think that his positive contribution does not go far enough to address the entire problem , as would a full blown & widespread BDS .

Rhys Stanley,

Where do you get your information about Sabra and Shatila? You have been maliciously misled. Even worse, you constantly refer to such as if it were fact.
No citation no references ... Do check your facts.

None of us here will accept horse-feathers. To expect one to, is an insult to one's intelligence.

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia, not Israeli troops, committed the massacres in the Palestinian refugee camps Sabra and Shatila on September 16-17, 1982. No Israeli troops entered Sabra nor Shatlia. They did however, permit the Phalangists to enter these camps to root out terrorist cells believed there - an estimated 200 armed men operated from PLO built bunkers stocked with arms of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead, ranging from 460 (the Lebanese police report) to 700-800 (Israeli intelligence calculations.). The Lebanese reported 35 women and children dead, the remainder being men comprised Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians.

The massacres were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Israel accepted responsibility for the decision to let the Phalange to enter the camps in order to transfer authority to the Lebanese.

In response to public outrage in Israel, the Israeli government set up Kahan Commission of Inquiry, finding that Israel was “indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence”. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, Defense Minister Ariel Sharon resigned and Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff was dismissed.

300,000 Israelis had demonstrated in protest about the killings; nary a peep from Arab states; international outcry against Israel - but for The Phalangists, the perpetrators, barely a mention.

In Lebanon, itself, public recognition for the Phalangist leaders, even political elevations and rewards. Look where they now are in public life!

Washington Post, (February 8, 1983) The Kahan Commission was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."

cont ...

Belgium attempted to try Sharon for his role in what happened in Lebanon. The appellate court, however, threw out the case. Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Liberty,( June 26, 2002)

In May 1985, Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. UN officials reported 635 killed and 2,500 wounded.

In the two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, over 2,000 people, including civilians, were killed.

In October 1990 Syrian forces attacked Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In eight-hours 700 Christians were killed — the worst single massacre of Lebanon's Civil War. New York Times, (October 19, 1990).

These killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.

References
Zeev Schiff and Ehud Yaari, Israel's Lebanon War, pp. 70, 257 (well referenced)
Jillian Becker, The PLO p. 212 (well referenced)
Washington Post, (February 8, 1983)
Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Liberty, (June 26, 2002)
New York Times, (October 19, 1990)

Again .. Rhys Stanley, Don't be gullible. ... No horse-feathers. Please ... OLO members consider such horse-feathers an insult to their intelligence. And rightly so.

Those who believe that a complete BDS should be imposed on Israel. Bravo! I suggest you personally commit to this (individuals can do such a lot).

Record you names here. You are extremely courageous. I record those who definitely make such a stance ... just to get things going ...

Rhys Stanley
rexw
David G
Oz

Israel Today
http://israel21c.org

Green Prophet
http://www.greenprophet.com/

These two sites provide much information about Israel, including new products etc... so are a valuable resource.

Some developments are joint with Arab-and-non-Jewish Israelis. But what the heck ... let the businesses, research facilities, etc. go bust. Just teach them a lesson ...

I know, that one particular inovation none of the above will avail themselves of is...
http://israel21c.org/201103038872/health/an-alzheimers-vaccine-in-a-nasal-spray

I make a challenge to those who demand a BDS on Israel. Put your commitment where your mouth is ... in the nicest possible way, of course.

Dear Oz,

I am not that brave - the proposed law has not yet come into effect. It will probably take a few more weeks.

"I still think that his positive contribution does not go far enough to address the entire problem"

How can you tell if the gentler and accurately-directed approach was never tried before?

If you use a jackhammar to kill an ant, you might also injure your own foot, as Danielle just nicely noted. Do you think that those researchers working on Alzheimer vaccines have time for either robbing Palestinians of their land and water, or for protesting and trying (in vain) to take their government to task? No - they are simply too busy in the lab! What have you got against them? What have they done to you?

I understand that the stupid Americans are in the way. Perhaps they should be made to understand that the alternative, unless they stay out of the way and abstain in the security-council, would be a full-blown BDS by the rest of the world which they could have otherwise prevented, perhaps that would convince them to listen to reason.

Dear Yutyusu ,
Late again , sorry again .

"What have you got against them . What have they done to you".
Nothing . I have nothing PERSONAL against the ordinary citizens of Israel .
I support a BDS , not because it will cause suffering (ie. not for PUNISHMENT)but because it will , I think , eventuuually force an end to those totally unacceptable voter-sanctioned policies which have the continuing result of even WORSE suffering , including death .
The disproportion of
".jackhammer to ...ant"
in no way applies when comparing the remedy of BDS to those lethal policies . I cannot compare those policies to "ant(s)".

I can understand why you press for
"a gentler & accurately-directed approach"
But I disagree with your view that the ordinary Israeli voter is blameless , or not in a position to deliver a solution to this problem .

(continued)
I am stuck with my relatives & friends too . And I love even the ugly ones too .
But there has been too much international delay & too much resulting damage & suffering . Getting far too late to fiddle , experimenting with powder puffs for the purpose of giving the self-indulgent offenders another chance .
How can you guarantee that your gentler remedy will work ? How could you justify the lethal delay if it did not work ?

In adopting Danielle's approach , you are introducing the issue of COLLATERAL DAMAGE . I think that Israel is already on record , asserting that as a sometimes-unavoidable , but necessary evil . I must admit that I have never digested that idea in the way the Israeli government puts it .

(continued)
For example , hopefully a BDS would convince busy alzheimer workers to FIND the time to take the government to task , without stopping work .

Don't forget the WEDGE idea you raised earlier . That would work . If you pulled that off , you would , after the dust settled , get Israeli of the Year .
The stupid Americans ? I associate them with problems , not solutions .
As some Chinese spokesman said - they are so UNIMAGINATIVE .
I hold more hope in the ordinary Israeli VOTER , with a little help from their (real) friends .

Oz,

Do you overlook the thousands of Palestinians who enter daily to work in Israel? Those who do receive equitable wages, social (including medical) benefits, enjoyed by Israelis. Are they too to lose their income and benefits ... their jobs.

And what of the Israeli and Palestinian businesses who mutually depend upon each other?

I suggest your read the following in full ...

Jerusalem Palestinians Would Prefer to Remain in Israel
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/14/jerusalem-palestinians_n_809374.html

Pechter Polls
http://www.pechterpolls.com/

Thousands of Palestinians apply for Israeli citizenship
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3468672,00.html

"Intensive talks over division of Jerusalem has prompted its Palestinian residents to make a move once considered the ultimate treason ...

... As accepting Israeli citizenship was viewed by many within the community as tantamount to treason, most Palestinians opted to remain permanent residents and enjoy the benefits of living under Israeli sovereignty – full welfare rights, municipal voting rights and unrestricted movement - without putting their loyalty to the Palestinian Authority into question. The average Palestinian family in East Jerusalem currently receives a $770 monthly stipend from Israel."

Not too bad ...

It would appear that Palestinians have a better idea of their situation than those pontificating and making decisions for them thousands of miles away.

I do not approve of the settlements over the Green Line. However, under international law these are entirely legal. The Green Line is an armistice line, not an internationally recognised border. Until the Palestinians agree to Israel's right to exist, no border can be decided upon. If and when the Palestinians agree to two states, borders will be determined. This could well mean settlers being forceably removed by Israel, or the settlers finding themselves within a Palestinian state. Indeed, Israel has stated that there would be a land-for-land exchange.

Aparteid is a separation of space ... the space can be physical, social, within education, political, scientific, philosophical, etc. etc.

In South Africa "aparteid' was forensically and painfully determined. Blacks could not walk on the same side of the streets as whites in major cities, nor attend schools with whites, not bathe on the same beaches, nor hold down comparable jobs with whites, not access toilets used by whites, nor have positions in parliament ... nor attend university ... the list goes on and on ... in every area of life. Indeed it was a crime for a black and a white to marry. Simply explained it would be as though blacks were a bacterium, or a virus, against which whites protected themselves.

When blacks and whites inhabited the same space, the whites had complete and utter control over them.

This is not the situation in Israel.

Danielle ,
I don't say that Israel has no positive features .

Dear Oz,

I am still behind the WEDGE idea:
Place a wedge between the Hateful and the Fearful. Convince the fearful that they can survive without their coalition with the hateful.

"there has been too much international delay"

Yes, and it is the same delaying-factor that prevents both my milder, fairer, surgical tactics and your harsher ones (which include collateral damage, and as Danielle noted, some of the sufferers will even be Palestinians). Neither was tried yet, and the reason is one: America.

My family has already voted, and to the very best of my knowledge, none has voted for the current coalition. They and many others voted for the opposition and are looking helplessly as Israel drifts away into darkness (the Alzheimer researchers are quite likely amongst them).

"How could you justify the lethal delay if it did not work?"

1. America will anyway have to yield sooner to my milder approach than to a comprehensive BDS, so no time is lost.
2. When fixing a water-pipe, look for the joints, check whether the job can be done with a screwdriver instead of with a hammer. Hitting the pipe in frustration with a hammer is only likely to cause a flood and make things worse. Hitting Israel indiscriminately with a hammer, rather than carefully targeting its joints, is likely, instead of fixing it, to bring a meltdown of Israeli society and with it the desperate use of nuclear weapons.

Have a read in Genesis 18, verses 20-32: "Will you sweep away the godly along with the wicked?"

Dear Yuyutsu ,
"Genesis 18 , verses 18-23"
A bible discussion with me would get us nowhere ,except to disclose the differing schools of bible construction upon which we respectively rely to support our conclusions .
You would not enjoy it either because my standard of bible studies is very ordinary .
"..same delaying factor.."
An additional & overlaying delaying factor is , I think , the fact that the ordinary citizen will eventually get sick of BDS , & start sending clear messages to the politicians .
On the other hand , the settlers , with their history of fanaticism , might NEVER respond, Might even ENJOY fighting to the last man .

(cont)
"America ...yield sooner to my milder approach"
The US could refuse to do even that - they have domestic votes to secure , & international face to save (remember the obscene dithering during the Vietnam war ?)
Too late to wait for them to get their act together . That might never happen . And , for every day delayed , the US (& others) will smile wider .
"..Screwdriver/hammer.."
This is a hammer situation , or my name is not Oz .
"Wedge"
Good luck Yuyutsu .

Dear Oz,

Please forget for a moment that the passage was taken from the bible. It was never my intention to try to impress some authority upon you, but rather to present an interesting early text that deals with the moral issue of collateral damage.

You can divide the Israeli population quite roughly into 3 groups:

A. The settlers and their supporters. They indeed will never respond and would rather die than give up their "promised" land. These are about 30% of Israelis, but their relative numbers are increasing.
B. The peace camp (including Arab Israelis), which ALREADY sends clear messages of disgust, but to no avail: the politicians just ignore and laugh at them (because they know that their portion of the population is decreasing, due to emigration and lower birth-rates). These are about 40% of Israelis, but on the decrease.
C. The security-minded who are in coalition with the settlers because they are afraid for their lives and do not trust that the Arabs either desire peace or are able to maintain any peace agreement. They will bend if only you are able to convince them that they can survive without the settlers. These are about 30% of Israelis.

Your mission, our mission, is to place a wedge between group C and group A, meanwhile avoiding hardship and desperation in group B from either pushing them into the arms of group A as well; or otherwise escaping the country, leaving all their wealth and weapons behind to the settlers and flooding the world as refugees.

Group C is represented by Israel's PM, Netanyahu. He is an opportunist. His rhetoric changes depending whom he is talking with. Being a spoiled brat, inconveniences can easily shake him, but too harsh a pressure would rather bring him to adopt that message which the settlers constantly pump at him: "You see, the whole world is against us, always were, always will, they always just wanted to kill all the Jews and here they are doing it again, so let's stand together, pick up arms and show them the last battle".

Re "your/our mission is... ": I don't see where ventilations about such 'mission statements' could come from, if not from rather infantile sources. To me, with respect, this is a lot of leftist pontification about issues most commentators here display an utter want of historical and/or political knowledge. The horizon of those commentators appears limited to leftist kumbaja, Hamas/Fatah launched propaganda, the aping of PLO-planted factoids and a general dislike of the existence of the one Jewish homeland. A democratic and free country in which 20 per cent of the population is Muslim/Arab with full political, legal and media representation, no matter their gender or sexual orientation. Fact remains the lands to the west of river Jordan are Israel by any measure. If you believe this is 'occupied' land, then you probably also believe that Tibetans occupy Chinese lands. Right?

You may not read this in your leftist MSM:

13MAR11: Hamas handed out candy last night as residents took to the streets of the southern Gazan city of Rafah to celebrate the brutal terror attack in Itamar, where five members of a single Israeli family were murdered in their home, including three children, one of whom was three years old, and another just one month. An 11-year old boy was killed as he lay reading in bed. The children and baby had their throats slit. Three other children who survived are now orphaned.
Hamas Spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhri, welcomed the attack. Fatah’s military wing – the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades – claimed responsibility for the attack.

There are photos here (sent with the permission of the grandparents who want the world to know).

They have given permission to news media to use them.

WARNING: graphic shots of children
https://picasaweb.google.com/picsyesha/Itamar

PALESTINIAN PRIME MINISTER ADMITS ITS TERRORISM - BUT THE BBC DOESN’T

Even though many Western media failed to report the attack at all, and those that did (such as the BBC) refused to use the word “terror”,

Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said he “clearly and firmly denounces this terror attack.”

“ABBAS ENCOURAGES ATTACKS OF THIS KIND”

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu expressed anger that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah (the benefactor of endless goodwill and billions of dollars from the US, European and other governments) refused to properly and swiftly condemn the terror attack.

Netanyahu called upon Abbas to curb the dehumanization of Jews in the Palestinian media and schoolbooks “once and for all”.

The Palestinian Authority continues to lionize Palestinian suicide bombers in its media and at schools, and name public squares after them, and Israel argues that this only serves to encourage attacks like the one perpetrated in Itamar...

"Hamas handed out candy last night"

Be sure that the settlers are dancing too (in secret of course) for the baby's murder which ended the recent drought.

Settlers feed on such murders, for them it's a small price to pay for what they believe will bring their Messiah over. Netanyahu just promised them permits for 500 new homes in exchange, while the interior-minister, Ely Yishai claimed that it would not be enough, that they should receive 1000 per person murdered, that is 5000 new homes in total. I am sure that if a n angel came down from heaven and offered to bring that murdered family back to life, they would all say "No thanks, we rather hav e our building permits".

You see, Oz, the settlers are not alarmed in the least by your suggestions for blanket BDS on Israel, they understand that such a move will unify Israeli ranks in their favour. Material and even life sacrifices are nothing for them in comparison with their mystical task of fetching their Messiah (which they believe depends on their settlement efforts). They are alarmed however by my gentler surgical approach. They know what works!

Note their tactics, Oz, they keep talking about and turning the focus on the Arabs: Arabs, Arabs, and more Arabs, what Arabs do, what Arabs say, what Arabs think. This is how they win over group C, the security-minded, they never miss such an opportunity. They turn the heads away from the fact that the occupation is primarily an internal Israeli matter, that it corrupts and corrodes Israeli society from within, that as a result there will soon, if the trend continues, be no moral reason or justification left for Israel to exist.

Since I want Israel to exist, and prosper, I call for steps to help Israel cut off and relieve itself of that cancerous growth, namely the occupied territories and settlers.

Isn't it about time oursiders stopped interferring in Israeli/Palestinian matters.

Does the world really need another Arab state like the others in the region? Would the Palestinian people want this?

Israel is the only chance for the Palestinian people to have a democratic, viable, indeed, dynamic state. If the Palestinian people had been allowed to accept the two state solution sixty years ago, they would have been the glittering gem among the Arab states. With Israeli know-how and the energy of the Palestinians nothing would have been impossible.

But no ...

After the monumental debacle of Arab armies to “assist” Palestinians, the Arab High Command situated in Iraq undertook a commission into why the unloseable Arab forces lost. The commission found that only 14% (or was it 4%) of Palestinians of arms-bearing age actually took up arms, let alone waved a gun, nor indeed farted, in Israel’s general direction. This satisfied the commission as to why the great combined Arab armies were routed . Palestinians! And the war was for them! Horse-feathers. This may also account somewhat for the derision and contempt of Palestinians held by Arab States. In spite of the government choreographed protests "on behalf of Palestinians," the mention of Palestinians in Arab States brings an automatic glance at the sole of their shoes. Palestinians living in Arab states have no rights, no citizenship, no life at all. They are considered detretis. Rather than employ Palestinians, these states offer great enducements to foreigners to work in their territories. Education ... a decent livelihood ... social benefits ...medical care? Not for Palestinians. Selling second-hand clothing on the streets is considered a plum job ..

Palestinians have been ill served by their political masters, who have either been opportunistic outsider criminals or incompetent. Look at the the bloody and self-destructive adventures Palestinians have been led on; ...look at the black hole into which billions of dollars have disappeared with no benefits to the Palestinian people.

When Israel departed Gaza it left state of the art horticulticultural plants which the Palestinians destroyed leaving no pane of glass intact.

Then there was the horrific bloody civil war waged in Palestinian territories. More Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians in the first ten months, then had been killed in clashes with Israel. Where were the headlines and concern in western media then?

The resultant and very logical stampede to leave Palestinian terrority by thousands of Palestinians and businesses brought down a fatwa forbidding anyone to leave except for those temporary studying abroard ... thus returning. It must be noted that no Arabs in Israel have felt the need to emulate their Palestinian brothers.

After Cast Lead, the Hamas promised any UN Peace-keepers death if they set a foot on their soil.

Yuyutsu is absolutely correct about the continual condemnation of Israel and the effects on the Israeli people. The Guardian admits that Israel is a soft target. Never mind if the reporting is inaccurate or a fabrication. (It was the Guardian that ran a sensational piece about Princess Margaret's love child.) Worldwide media undoubtedly see condemnation of Israel as good copy ... and don't the mouth-breathers lap it. Never mind the quality of the facts, look at the widths of columns it can fill.

The paternalistic drivel meted out to the Palestinians is equally damning. They are eterrnal victims, devoid of agency. Unfortunately, they too are effected, with the very real risk of it becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, Palestinians moored into an eternal pathology of paralysis.

Isn't it about the the world encouraged both Israel and the Palestinians. Isn't it about time the world recognised what Israel can offer a Palestinian state.

For the first time the economy on the West Bank is beginning to look good ... and this is largely due to business with Israel.

But Oz and others see the fall-out from a BDS as just collateral damage, never mind that it could sink the emerging fragile Palestinian economy . The promotion of a BDS lies right up there with Mao’s “Great sparrow campaign.”

Dear Danielle,

Here we go again: "Arabs this, Arabs that".

Isn't it about time that you care more for your own people of Israel than try to take pity on those undeserving so-called "Palestinians"?

OK, so THEY are bad, THEY are stupid, THEY are evil, THEY are corrupt, THEY are undemocratic, THEY do not care for each other...

Since that is so, then why should Israel try to mimic their actions?
Why should Israel wish to remain in their land and be infected with their germs?
Isn't it about time for Israel to extract itself from that deadly swamp, return to its own borders and concentrate on improving its own society?

Dear Yuyutsu ,
If the numbers in Group C(Fear Camp)remain stable , and Group A (Settlers & supporters) is EXPANDING , and Group B (Peace Camp) is SHRINKING , but not defecting to the other 2 groups , then where is Group A getting its new support from ?

What voting rights in Israel are enjoyed by Joint Australian/Iaraeii citizens who are domiciled in Australia ?

Dear Oz,

"then where is Group A getting its new support from ?"

Breeding! ! !

In observance of the biblical commandment, "Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28), settlers typically have 10-12 children a family.

"What voting rights in Israel are enjoyed by Joint Australian/Iaraeii citizens who are domiciled in Australia ?"

They can vote IF they are physically present in Israel on election day.

Dear Yuyutsu,

As I have consistently maintained, I do not agree with settlers crossing the Green Line. My own opinion is that in doing so they should lose Israeli benefits, protection etc. ... or at most have the same as provided to the Palestinians.

Unless other Israelis are going to match the settlers baby-for-baby, then Israel will be dominated by these groups. Israel runs the real risk of imploding.

Are Israelis prepared to pay taxes to fund those who, for the main part, do not contribute to the public purse. The drain on the average Israeli community is going to be enormous ... as is the resultant resentment.

I suspect that the new law (fines) on those who promote an embargo on settlers' products is more an attempt to get the settlers some way self sufficient and not a burden on the state, rather than a pro-settler position. Didn't the government threaten to cut off funding for settler schools unless maths was taught? This indicates the government want settlers to have some idea of business.

Religious groups can function quite independently. European catholic monastries are self-supporting (albeit celibate). The Amish also are self-supporting.

This is not very heartening for Israel.
Do American Jews still like Israel?
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=211520

The idea that expatriate Israelis and diaspora Jews have voting rights re Israel would undoubtedly go some way to halting the problems. But would this bring them into conflict with the countries in which they are nationals/citizens

Dear Yuyutsu ,
Thanks .
Does anyone know what percentage of Australian Dual Citizens of Israel attend the ballots ? And whether that percentage varies , & if so , is there a trend up or down now ?

Do you know , off hand , what is the number of Australian/Israeli Dual Citizens domiciled in Australia , & how stable that number has been ?

Dear Oz,

The number of Israeli-citizens who lived in Australia (not all necessarily Australian citizens) in 2009 was estimated at 7340, that is up from 5000 in 2001.

Very few of those would bother to pay around $3000 (in economy-class) and travel to Israel 2 days each way just in order to vote.

The phenomena was more common in America (before the global financial crisis), where chartered-planes were filled with former Israelis travelling especially for election-day. But then it only takes 8 hours each way from there, and costed only $700, sometimes even as low as $300.

Dear Danielle,

Bringing more babies to an already-overcrowded world is not a recommended solution.

Many settlers ARE working and they do teach maths. If you check the list of their products you can find a variety of good-quality produce. I think you confuse between the settlers and ultra-orthodox Jews. They are for the most part quite distinct. While Israelis pay the later with tax-money, they pay the former with their blood. They hardly have any choice because it is very difficult to form a coalition without both. Hence, the new anti-boycott law is ideologically-based, not financially-based.

Note that there are whole ultra-orthodox towns in the West-Bank, but their residents do not identify with settler ideology. They live there due to economic duress (too many children!) and would gladly leave if given alternative housing in Israel.

P.S. Yes, the government did threaten the ultra-orthodox regarding maths, but never had the power/determination to follow through, given the ultra-orthodox party inside the coalition.

I don't see how a conflict is likely when dual-citizens vote. They mostly cancel each other anyway (burning many tonnes of fuel in the process). Jews in general can only vote in Israel if they officially migrate there. That may have adverse tax implications if later they wish to migrate for real, so not many do it.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I wasn’t actually recommending that Israeli’s match baby-for-baby.

You state

“The international community through the UN and its security council should declare uneqivocally that settlement in the occupied territories is NOT ON.”

... then further on state

“Note that there are whole ultra-orthodox towns in the West-Bank, but their residents do not identify with settler ideology. They live there due to economic duress (too many children!) and would gladly leave if given alternative housing in Israel.”

So there appears to be is a population problem within Israel itself .... or is it available housing ...?

Weren’t certain settlements considered a security buffer? What about UN peace-keepers. Then again, they are only successful if both sides want peace.

The solution would be two states ... With borders determined, then other issues could be resolved. It returns to Palestinians recognising Israel's right to exist ...

Dear Danielle,

"So there appears to be is a population problem within Israel itself .... or is it available housing ...?"

There is no country in the world without population problems, but if there is a will, then there is also a way.
For decades the Israeli government directed funds towards the settlements at the expense of Israel itself. That forced the poor, especially the ultra-orthodox that have so many children, to live in the west-bank: not because of ideology, but simply in order to avoid sharing one's bedroom with one's mother-in-law.

"Weren’t certain settlements considered a security buffer?"

What a miserable excuse! Civilians are a security burden, not a buffer. A proper security buffer is manned and patrolled by the army and is typically a free-firing zone, so whenever enemy movement is detected or suspected the army can shoot anything that moves there. How can you do it with civilians around?

"What about UN peace-keepers"

There aren't any at the moment.
Do you know how many troops will be needed?
Would Australia be willing to give its share?

"The solution would be two states ... With borders determined, then other issues could be resolved. It returns to Palestinians recognising Israel's right to exist"

But what if they don't? Time runs in favour of Arabs because Israel is crumbling from within. All they need is to wait. True, ordinary Palestinians meanwhile suffer, but most of their leadership does not care.

Israel's priority should be to save its own society, its own integrity, its own moral structure, its own international relations, and for that it needs to get out of the honey-trap in which it is caught since 1967. Peace may or may-not come at a later date.

Dear Yuyutsu ,
I do not wish to give the wrong impression.
I still support a full & widespread BDS .
But , speaking with you , I have more hope of a solution based on practicality & ,hopefully decency .

The following three camps are among supporters of the BDS campaign:

(1) critics of Israel but who support a two-state solution.
(2) those who support the dismantling of the current Jewish State and replacement with a single (highly theoretical) secular democratic state.
(3) those who desire the destruction of Israel by any means necessary.

Any distinction between harsh criticism of the state of Israel, condemnation of its continued existence, and calls for its eradication are blurred.

Oz,

I respect those who stand firmly behind their principles, even if I consider that they are in error. I wish you well.

What I don't like are those who are self-serving; creating wriggle-room. These people are hypocrites ... devoid of credibility.

At what point is a BDS "negotiable?" Is it?

Computers, iphones, etc ... indeed latest technologies and components are often the result of Israeli research. Chances are that the computer you are using now ...

Add to these medical breakthroughs ... in coronary disease, neonatal survival, paraplegia ... and alzheimers, ... the list goes on.

The Australian government has acquired Israeli dry-ground technology in agriculture for this country. Foods that are sold may well be the the results from this.

Israeli researchers do not query the ethnicity of their teams. Indeed a review of site Green Prophet shows the extent of Israeli benefits to other territories.

I hope, Oz et al that you are all purists in applying BDS. Anything else is a furphy. Do your homework well.

Curiously, whilst acknowledging the appalling human rights abuses in Middle Eastern States, none seem prepared to apply a ban on products from these places. And it would be so easy ... Petrol right off ... straight and centre. Fortunately, Israel is not a major oil producing area ... what a dilemma ..

Danielle :
Sorry I can't accommodate your view .

### I can't for the same reason you cannot accommodate mine - a matter of JUDGMENT (personality) . Peoples' VALUES , & thus their PRIORITIES are based on a worthy or unworthy foundation (personality) - depending on who is doing the assessment - yours differs from mine .

### When the goal of a BDS comes into sight , the BDS should become negotiable .

### In my books , an offender cannot hope to escape a just sentence on the basis that they are too valuable to society to be put out of business - otherwise , bank robbers with innocent , dependent children would acquire a licence to rob banks .

### I don't say that Israel is the worst offender - only AN offender .
Enough people in my country (& elsewhere) are working overtime on the case of other offenders . They don't need me to keep them on track .

Good Luck , Danielle . I agree with you - honesty (reality) is good. .

Even the current diplomatic pressure, slight as it is, begins to produce cracks in the Israeli coalition between the Hateful and the Fearful:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/west-bank-settlements-are-israel-s-nuclear-meltdown-1.349708

The settlers are unaffected of course, but the security-minded are!

Oz,

I agree with you. A principle is non negotiable. Thus, if you believe a BDS should be applied, it should be applied in all areas, irrespective of what it is. You have a lot of homework to do.

I trust the others here OLO are prepared to do the same, even if it means going without a vital service for themselves.

However, I doubt very much if the others here would do this. Perhaps they will "sacrifice" something they don't use/need anyway. This is the general outcome of such stands; all very self-serving to their egos.

There are more pressing and demanding issues than the Palestinians. Indeed many Palestinians seem quite comfortable with the status quo. But I know that many protesters who jump on this bandwagon do so because of media hype ... not objective and accurate information

Compare the health, mortality rates, education, employment, prejudice etc, etc, levels of the Palestinians with our indigenous peoples. Remember the "Sorry Day" the marches, balloons, banners etc. Everyone feeling so self-righteous and rosey. What has been achieved since then. Ask an indigenous person what it is like to try and rent a place in a leafy part of town ... Ask archaeologists who work with indigenous crews, how these crews are treated by outsiders ... Ask indigenous women what the problems are. They will tell you their men have been emasculated. The average indigenous man has been robbed of his role in his society; and, now, do-gooders are continuing this crime. Compare this situation with that of the Palestinians.

Our indigenous people live a a bleak and tattered third world existence; an existence born in hoplessness

Then there are the 44,000 street kids - apparently disposeable - to be thrown on the scrap heap before they have even had a chance of life. These are our children irrespective of who their parents are. We should be as concerned about their welfare and future as if born to us. Åsk those who work with them. First their hygiene goes, then comes disease, then an early death. We bleat about the lack of skilled workers ... but ...; we moan about needing a higher population ... but ...; It truly would be kinder (to be absolutely and brutally pragmatic) to cull them. Shocked, I bet you are! But compare the 44,000 street kids conditions with those of the Palestinians.

When drawing comparisons ... ensure the facts are correct and informed ... . Too many people see the Palestinian cause as glamorous and trendy because certain interests tell them so.

Many who jump on the Palestinian cause are mentally effete, mentally lazy, and, because of innate prejudices are willingly and easily manipulated.

Oz, I'm not inferring you are ... but you must agree with this about many of your fellow travellers.

Israel is a popular place to hate ... on many, many levels. Isn't it?

Dear Danielle ,
You are exactly right about Australia's treatment of indigenous people & the results . That is because Australia is a very racist country .
So is Israel (& England , US etc) , which is the my problem with Israel.
I have little relationship with my "fellow travelers" . I have spent more time than you & them with & on behalf of indigenous Australians .
Congratulate me . Today is the 41st anniversary of my engagement to be married , which is the anniversary that I celebrate .

Dear Oz,

Many, many congratulations on your aniversary ... and to your partner.

May you both have many more happy anniversaries like this!

Lovely to have someone share their happy news.

Dear Oz,

Considering the makeup of Israeli society, Arabs in the Knesset ... in the Diplomatic corps, in the highest levels of the Services, in academia etc. etc.

Considering that particular Arab groups (and others) persecuted in Arab society have their HQs in Israel.

Considering the freedom of speech and of the press enjoyed in Israel, and that there are numerically more human rights groups active in Israel per capita than elsewhere in the world ...

Whilst applying a BDS on Israel, why not enforce a comparable level of sanction against Palestinian territories. To bring about: agreement to Israel's right to exist, agreement on a two state solution, and final borders. Without such a committment of the Palestinian people, all else is futile.

Dear Danielle ,

I see your point , but where are Arab privileges & support within Israel getting them & what would a BDS in Palestinian territories achieve ?
I suppose it could , but I can't see how .

Dear Oz,

Perhaps not a BDS, but something severe enough to make them realise that they can't, as a
people, keep drifting along for another sixty years. That the world is getting a little impatient. It doesn't seem that their leaders are held accountable for the billions poured into their territory.

They really have to grow up and take responsibility for their future.

Dear Oz,

Palestinians do receive benefits from Israel, to the extent that ... read Saturday, 12 March 2011 12:05:45 AM above.

This also may make many indifferent as the three main issues mentioned above ..

Dear Danielle ,
No solutions from me tonight .
But I think that there are similarities between the Palestinians & the Australian Aboriginal people . There are obviously wide differences too. But I see very close similarities between , for example , their different dysfunctional responses to their quite similar respective cases of collective psychic shock .
I don't think that aberration can be cured in Australia or elsewhere by throwing money or selected privileges at it , as the Australian government likes to do , in its own very restrained way .

Dear Oz,

There is a world of difference between our indigenous people and the Palestinians.

A victim is a person who has not means of making a decision as to their conditions. No one is a victim who can make a choice. The Palestinians have the ball in their court ... and yet they make no decision as to self-determination, two-state solution, borders, etc. The Palestinians are not victims.

The world has, however, designated them as victims ... and Palestinians believe it ... along with a "learned helplessness". Despite billions of dollars poured into the Palesinian territory (having the density of a black hole), rather ironically, thousands of Palestinians daily seek employment in Israel (the "enemy") to secure an equitable wage and many benefits. As you would also read from the above reference sites, Palestinians seem to prefer Israeli administration over their own.

Falsely labelling the Palestinians as 'victims" has done them a terrible disservice. Until Palestinians reject the idea of victimhood, they are unlikely to be able to make regional decisions.

Dear Danielle ,
To cure the unnecessary vagueness of my post last night , I should particularize it in case you wish to respond .
I oppose a BDS against the Palestinians & any other solution likely to damage its infrastructure .
Their infrastructure , weak to start with , has already been directly damaged by well known deliberate outside human intervention (like that of the Australian Aborigines).
I think that now , their additionally-dysfunctional infrastructure has become an increasing part of the overall problem.
Any solution tending to damage their infrastructure further would , not only fail , but would be counter productive .

Dear Danielle ,
Our posts overlapped . I'll try to post tonight .

Dear Danielle ,
You & I are not completely poles apart in opinion .
I agree that Australian Aboriginals are not synonymous with Palestinians. They share no individuality .
What they share is DYSFUNCTIONALITY , which needs to be effectively addressed if we are to hope for a workable Middle East solution .

"VICTIM"
The Middle East problem cannot be solved accordingly to which side succeeds in establishing itself as THE victim .
Power politics will decide the matter , like everything else , won't it?

Dear Oz,

I agree "victimhood" is not a good look for any territory.

I also agree that the Palestinian people are dysfunctional, but they have the means and resources within themselves to act responsibly.

Then ... they also have to cope with Hamas.

Dear Danielle ,
You are right about that .
I very very much admire your young & vibrant spirit .
I don't think you have all the answers , but (damn) neither do I .
I hope you use your life well .
10 4
OZ

Dear Oz,

Thank you for your compliment ... especially ... as I am a seventy years old.

I certainly don't have all the answers - as you observed.

However, I have lived through much right at the coal-face (not in the Middle East). With the need to have knowledge and background knowledge of events, I come to issues from a certain perspective. My background is history in academia.

I have personally seen wars and the fallout; and have personally experienced terrorism.

We may not agree on everything, but people of good-will have a meeting point ... and that is an important step.

I wish you well, Oz. I wish you well.

Dear Danielle ,
As am I - 70 , that is - retired barrister .
Oz