There's a brilliant little book out by Amy Wax, law professor somewhere in the US: "Rights, Wrongs and Remedies". The gist of her argument is that, no matter what may have happened to someone, no matter how bad they have copped it, there can be no 'remedy' unless they get involved - I mean 'involved', doing it, not just sitting around pontificating, getting 'consulted' - that they must get up and do for themselves. Of course governments and agencies must do what they can but it's like someone even being spoon-fed - they have to try to swallow. And Indigenous people don't need spoon-feeding, surely.

So policies should ENABLE people to get up and do for themselves, not to rely on outside agencies for the most basic functions. Surely parents can look after their own kids ? Surely young people can do basic courses, then more advanced courses, and get themselves in the position of being able to work, even at the most unskilled jobs ? Surely they are not entirely useless ? Surely a 'community' has enough backbone to beat the daylights out of child-abusers and gutless wife-beaters ? Where is Kevin Gilbert when we need him ?

There are close to twenty seven thousand Indigenous university graduates, twenty four thousand of those in the last twenty years. Yes, mostly they are people who do not have their own land, who have had to pick themselves up and get on with life, but they have shown what Indigenous people can do, they are genuine heroes in my book.

People can do that, so why not the most basic skills ? This is bullsh!t. Are people in remote communities utterly useless ? Does 'community' life an all manner of public services infantilise people for life ? I refuse to believe that ! They lived off very harsh country, more or less, for fifty thousand years - why can't they perform the most basic functions in much better social and economic conditions now ? This is so shameful !

[TBC]

Joe

[cont.]

People have to be actively involved in their own liberation, in their own self-determination. But this can only happen if they do it and not have it all done for them by fairy godmothers and bureaucrats. So how to enable people to work hard in their own interests ? What skills would they need NOW if that is to happen ? EVER ?

Many people in the north and in remote areas are on their own land. Many people have never NOT been on their own land ! I'm sure that many other people have always perceived, or believed, TAKEN FOR GRANTED, that their land has always been theirs, they have never been off it. Their kids were not taken into care. So let's not blame history for what it didn't do.

In fact, let's get right away from blame and get onto the practicalities of how people can take on standard, human responsibilities, of looking after their kids, of treating each other like human beings, of putting in as well as taking out.

I know these might be huge conceptual shifts for people used to having everything done for them, down to 'home-makers' cleaning their houses and washing their clothes and feeding their kids and wiping their backsides. But sooner or later, people have to understand how the real world, the outside world, actually works - i.e. in the first place, by WORKING, by doing as much as possible for themselves; in the second place, by filling up many of the non-working hours in domestic functions, like looking after each other.

That might be an entirely new experience, but other Indigenous people have done it - they've had to, over 150-200 years - so why can't the people in remote 'communities', on their own land ? Why shouldn't they ?

Joe

So you are cranky Joe, well so am I ,particularly with your "So why can't they ??" Attitude that has no answers with it .
None the less it is a good Question that very rarely gets asked to the Indigenous people involved. The "we know what's best" brigade get the job and it's all downhill from there.
The question is not asked because the answer is too hard give if you're a politician or a Government Worker that needs to pay their bills .
I'm a bit disgusted with your comment of "wiping their Backsides".

There are probably millions of white and other immigrant Australians parents that PAY to have their Kid's bums wiped at preschools ,playschools and kindergarten while they are off at work , at the movies or at the theatre.
I know quite a lot of Aboriginal People - wiping bums is a family job - not given to outsiders by choice.

What about giving them enough of the whites' good land back INCLUDING minerals ,as they have done in Northern Canada so that they can make a living off it and you can take a tax break Joe .

Nope that won't work - our standard of living and tax rates in Australia are determined by how much Aboriginal land can be dug up and railed by BHP & Co,[and Taxed] to Port Hedland or Gove and shipped to China .

Hi Jim,

Over the past few years on threads like this, I've put forward my own ideas about what may conceivably be done, if this and if that. I don't presume to have any definite answers and it's not my job: wouldn't that be pretty arrogant ? No, I "don't know best".

This was my point: ultimately, it's up to the people to nut out their own problems and solutions, it's not up to me or you or any outsiders. It's called growing up and facing one's responsibilities.

But as I keep trying to say, in the south, Indigenous people have done wonders in tertiary education - so the obvious question, even taking into account the obvious differences and difficulties of remote-area, non-English-speaking, illiterate people, is "why can't they do something along similar lines ?"

What don't you understand about ".... they have shown what Indigenous people can do, they are genuine heroes in my book", Jim ?

In the north, Indigenous people now have a sixth of Australia, half a million square miles. Down the south and in the settled areas, yes, you're right, they have bugger-all land. Yet they have got on with life. Heroes, Jim.

I hope that people can say the same about people in northern communities in the near future :) Unless I'm mistaken, people in remote areas are more or less as intelligent as anybody else, barring the FAS and effects of grog, head-battering, crap fast-food diet and drugs. So why not ?

And surely isn't it incredibly racist to assume that people can't ? The racism of low expectations ?

Joe

kartya jim, when people get over the sense of entitlement that is taught to them or offered as an excuse for all manner of behaviour, they can get on with their lives.

it's a no gain game to constantly bemoan the lack of whatever it is you think is the solution, if only we had a gold mine, or some land that our ancestors had 100s of years ago .. when evidently they didn't care about possessions, but now have been taught to be grasping towards everything

the rest of Australia don't have that sense of entitlement, they get on and make their lives, never dreaming for a moment that things might change and the government might shower them with money .. yet still have happy productive lives.

if aboriginals were to understand that it is never going to happen and if the aboriginal industry is stopped from constant legal battles to try to get back land or whatever it is they want this time, things might change

pigs might fly too .. it's hopeless and all that happens is the cycle goes around and around. most Australians don't care much about aboriginals as they are seen to be mollycoddled and pampered, then spit in our faces and demand more, and at the same time curse us

patience runs out .. eventually we'll have enough migrants who had nothing to do with english heritage running the place with zero sense of guilt or sympathy for aboriginals .. that's when it will change.

I'd suggest the aboriginal's problems will get worse not better .. the guilt trip will not last, nor will our patience

Amicus says " the rest of Australia don't have that sense of entitlement,"...... Amicus, what world are you living in ?
White and Immigrant Australians, never stop winging and crying for Five Star Everything ...Social Services ,World's Best Health Care ,roads ,housing , Interest rate subsidies , Cheaper Public Transport ,more subsidies for private schools ,Big Business Tax Subsidies,better this and cheaper that .
"...don't have that sense of Entitlement"?? Amicus I hope ,no doubt in vain, that you are not serious .
Remote Aboriginal Australians are left to fend for themselves and only rate a nasty mention and a miniscule effort ,when it suits the Politicians looking for a few cheap votes from One Nation and other detritus, of the same style.
It is no accident that Aboriginal Australians have less per head spent on them for Health and Housing and that they are sicker and have a shortened life ...the Services [even 2 star] and determination to to help the First Australians have NEVER been there ... it's Policy ,nothing less !
Change the Policy !