So racial discrimination is okay, as long as you're the ones doing it, right?

Come on Mal, you had a go, & sure didn't do too well. In fact your time in the top chair was one of the worse efforts we've seen.

I really don't know how we ever elected you to anything. The list of authority you give at the end show just how far you are out of step with the people of Oz. This may perhaps be something about you, that you kept hidden when you wanted votes.

A list of academics, religious types, & politicians with the same idea is not likely to have us all pulling our forelock, as it once may have. Strange as it may seem, we do think for ourselves a bit more these days.

These are the very people who have stuffed it up mate, along with you. We are sick of being treated as lab rats by this type of people, particularly as none of them have any sort of track record to be proud of.

History all ready has you placed, but much more of this rubbish will just show how far out of touch you are. Keep it up & you will become one of Bob Hawkes "silly old buggers".

What Mal really means is... the "Global Socialist New World Order" which is being relentlously advanced by this strange notion of "Human Rights"

I say 'strange' with good reason, because it is VERY strange when such laws are used AGAINST traditional Aussies, Aussie law, and Christians in particular.

It cannot be 'Human Rights' when the rights of a majority of the population are perverted, attacked, undermined and assailed by pinko progressive anti-Christian enemies.

The true nature of such groups.. like the USA version "Code-Pink" where their rallies are characterized by

-Send Obama back to the fields
-hang him
-Death to Wisconsin Governor.

Now.. bear in mind... Code Pink is a LEFTIST and PROGRESSIVE group.

So much for 'a civil tone' hmmmmm

The further Australia FLEES from this culpable, anti-Christ like undermining, insidious, intrusive Socialist vanguard..the better.

ACTION STATIONS. (Attention Liberal/Coalition)

1. Remove Australia's signatory status to Refugee and CPPR conventions.
OR... add exceptions to cover our need to manage such things as assylum/country shoppers without Bob Brown constantly reminding us of "Our international obligations"

2. END "Multiculturalism" once and for all, and change the policy and funding focus to promoting unity, and inclusion rather then diversity division racism and exclusion.

Looking at the history of the Intervention, it is ABUNDANTLY clear that both sides are using it for political advantage.

Let's not forget the original noble intent.. "Save the CHILDREN from being swamped with booze and PORNOGRPHY"!

The usual arguments from Mal and Co. The fact is that when you work with aboriginal people it is very hard work as they tend to want everyone else but themselves to be the givers. It is one thing to pontificate about what should be done and quite another to actually get things done. The process put in place by John Howard is the best way to affect improvement in the lives of aboriginal people over time and it is a great shame that the Labor government has undone much of the good work.

If Mal and his cohorts have their way this problem will go on unhindered, on and on into the future. It is strange that someone who once said that life wasn't meant to be easy is so slow to realise that only by doing the hard things that John Howard put in place can future improvements be achieved.

More grandstanding by eminent people and more interference by the UN, which amounts to grandstanding by its committees.

Never mind the vast problems in China or Iraq, Pakistan or systematic persecution and even slaughter of minorities in Africa. It seems the fact that succesive Govenments, one of which Fraser headed, have been unable to solve the problem of poverty in remote indigenous communities is the real international issue.

I don't know what to do about poverty in the top end, but I'm pretty sure this sort of stuff does not help. The eminent persons listed should get off their high horses and start looking at the issue in a constructive way.

Well put Mal et al. You can't help anyone by taking away their human rights.
This isn't grandstanding.

Dear Malcolm, it’s a pity that the UN itself is not being scrutinized. Here we have a body that has perhaps the most atrocious human rights record on the planet, not directly of course, but through admission to its ranks, of some of the most despotically rotten dictatorships in the world and the UN’s abject failure to act against them. If they had acted, we might not have seen the recent public reactions and deaths in the Arab world? Some might feel the UN “scrutiny” of our affairs is both hypocritical and unwarranted, time to wrap up the UN and its woeful “blind eye” contributions to social equity and justice.

It is our own ill conceived, poorly thought out, interfering, irrational, populist and appeasement driven policies that has utterly confused our aboriginal peoples and driven them into a state of victimhood.

We’ve done a great job without the UN thank you very much.

It’s time to get aboriginal kids into school and their parents into a job. That is where they should start.

Or we could start where you left off and have an action replay of all the “wonderful initiatives” our politicians, academics and human rights groups have delivered in the last 100 years?

It’s time for all the contributors to this essay, to be part of the solution rather than calling on the UN to “endorse” your already persistently flawed views and failed initiatives. Stop trying to rewrite history, get over it and move on.

Australian indigenous will always see themselves as discriminated against. it's their right to think.
I would like to ask these 33 leading Australians what action they're taking right now to stop the production of more suffering refugees in Somalia, Afghanistan etc.
What are they doing about it at this very moment ? Well, after lunch anyway .

Fraser and the other well meaning signatories are probably not aware of the utterly desperate situation of many people in the NT Aboriginal communities.

How you get anywhere by consulting and seeking permission to act from dominant individuals who are often themselves leading perpetrators of violence, bullying and corruption,and/or complicit in the illicit grog and drug trade, is beyond my ken.

Rosalie Kunoth-Monks and Djiniyini Gondarra have their heads deep in the sand over some of this. If their own communities are lucky enough to have escaped some of these problems, they still must be aware of the intractable nature of corruption and irresponsible behaviour infesting many other places.

As for the alleged "failure of NTER measures such as the policy of removal of welfare entitlements where there is unsatisfactory school attendance", are they aware that, owing to determined obstruction by the NT Govt and Education Union, implementation of this program has barely begun? It is a bit rich to base half your argument on such flimsy evidence of failure.

Mr Fraser

Did you ask Mal Brough or Noel Pearson for their ideas and input on your current well meaning contribution?

regards Keith Kennelly?

I would like to see Mal do an article on the slow genocide of the Palistinians and the theft of their land.Then I will know you are fair dinkum.

Who cares?

When we spend on averge several hundred thousand dollars of taxpayers money in legal aid for every illegal immigrant plus housing and feeding htem in luxury hotels, plane fares and so on... when our government spends about $20 per taxpayer for defending the convicted Australian terrorist Abdul Nacer Benbrika...

That's a heap of money keeping the lawyers fat, while not making the taxpayer any better off

I just like to support the author,not one is perfect and the people change,this is a genuine attempt to rise a voice to help the indigenous ,U N is not perfect they close the eye on many issue but in this we need to take aboard the long time reprimand!
The indigenous are the one suffering.
Justice and apology is overdue ,many good thing had bearchive and we must care e reestablish justice. This can be archive only with they participation.
Part of the natural resource should be use to made amendment for all the wrong doing.
Is time to go forward they need to forgive the wrong.
Australia Indigenous need to regain they self esteem not easy after so much abuse.
Many Indigenous are Christian and the Lord Love all of them to be part of is Kingdom.
I'm suggest seeing the positive result in other, country to give them a special status of autonomy. Jesus Love Justice = Peace= Joy Ciao

Are the ARab countries counted in international human rights.

Human rights for nomadic peoples is NOT about making them WHITER.

THERMODYNAMIC & GENETIC issues come into play. Aboriginal peoples the world over bred for their 'Solar ranging' abilities to survive. If they don't have a seasonal range of at least 1000 Nth-Sth Km, if you put them on a 20Km reservation they will, genetically speaking, IMPLODE.

That means, the biggest destroyer of aboriginals, the world over, is FARMERS RIGHTS.

Farmers must now recompense by opening corridors within pastures to allow connections between special seasonal reservations North to South across the country.

Such natural rights for aboriginals would allow them to flourish in old culture. And there are legal and policing ways to make it work on just terms for farmers and aboriginals alike.

The only thing in its way is Farmers law. The only law in most of the outback for over two centuries. The squat law that protected the integrity of farm fences and boundaries. And the law that saw the decimation of the aboriginal people in the first place. Most Australians as SEDENTARY (squat) peoples use power station or petrol station Entropy gradients to power their societies. And it doesn't surprise me, from a genetics point that aboriginal children sniff petrol, because that is one of limited tangible substitutes for environmental entropy ranging gradients that they have.

Of course Buffalo in the US Yellowstone region have been given such rights and now, farmers there have been given supreme court rights to kill them because they have 'ranged' & flourished just a little too much.

And its

KAEP What you say is ok. As far as roaming rights go. Au indigenous are tribal, and one tribe doesn't understand the other. There was something like 250 indig; languages. And one tribe didn't mix with the other. To keep the genetics straight they had a system that defective newborn were given back to god to be reborn. The problem is very complex hence why the struggle to help these people still exists. I think the powers to be are on the track of schooling and retraining, but so-far this is a gigantic failure. My personal belief is to give these people their own state to roam in, as long as conflict between tribes can be overcome.

I find it incredible that Malcolm wants this changed

'the entrenchment of discrimination against Aborigines in the criminal law of the Northern Territory by failing to repeal s.91 of the NTER Act which ensures that no customary law or cultural practice, excuses, justifies, authorises, requires or lessens the seriousness of any criminal behaviour with which the Crimes Act is concerned'

Does that mean crime should be considered less serious if committed by a Muslim, a Hindu, a Christian, a Catholic Priest or atheist.

How divisive would Malcolm and his beloved UN make this nation.

How divisive would Malcolm and his beloved UN make this nation.
Runner,
Keep in mind that past use by date characters like Malcolm Fraser are so well looked after by taxpayers' money that they lose all sense of reality. Why didn't he fix the situation when he was the one who had the ultimate say ? I tell you why, because he didn't know how do go about then & he still doesn't know. Just wait till all the other scrap-heap ex PM's start getting bored. It's only us ordinary stupid people who seem to see through the fog that is academia.

>> give these people their own state to roam in, as long as conflict between tribes can be overcome <<

Un-intelligent, mature - either, neither.

579,

I appreciate any support.

However there are legal, policing and THERMODYNAMIC barriers that make an aboriginal state not only impossible but also just an extension of failed Reservation politics.

There are many advantages to aboriginals, tourism, biodivesity and the Australian economy at large to implement a Corridor system. THERMODYNAMIC considerations are vital. An initial test range that incorporates existing road transport sections as an integral part of the corridor could be established quite happily between Moree and Barrington Tops. It could include tribal influences as far away as Dubbo and Walgett.

I don't rule out that aboriginal elders may have a better THERMODYNAMIC intuition that the best physicists. I expect they may suggest something more beneficial or fine tune the above suggestion.

Malcolm has as much right as anyone else on this forum to voice his views, and I must say I am embarrassed at the very personal slurs against this man.
He may be elderly and an ex-Prime Minister, but I have no doubt that he has more of an idea of the plight of indigenous Australians than many people on this forum.

Are we to ignore the obvious plight of our Indigenous Australians simply because there may be worse off people in the world?
If, as many Australians seem to think, we are throwing heaps of money at Indigenous Australians already, then it does not appear to have helped them in any way.

How can these people get up and 'help themselves' if no one will give them a job?

How would many of the learned posters to this site suggest that our indigenous Australians improve their standard of living and their human rights in their own country?

Suze, this bloke had no idea which way was up, when he was PM, why do you think he would have learned anything since.

In PNG every person, man, woman & child pays a head tax. No welfare there. If they want food to eat, they must grow it, or work for it.

If a village wants a school they must find the cash, & supply the labor to build one.

When they have built the school, they only get a teacher when they have built a house for them, & their family if any, to live in. The house must be to the beast local standard.

If they want alcohol they have to brew it. There is no grog problem, other than in a couple of cities, as they aren't paid sit down money with which to buy grog.

They are better fed & healthier than aboriginals. Do you think it may be because if they don't do something today, & every day, they won't eat next week? Now that gives people some purpose in life.

One day you'll look to see I've gone.

For tomorrow may rain, so I'll follow the sun.

KAEP:

Sorry, but there is little comparison between the American and Australian Native. Fencing was never an inhibitor to the migration of the Australian native that fencing was to the American Native. Different lifestyles and different mentality entirely.

As for your wacky reason for Aboriginal kids sniffing petrol; I can’t hold with that one either.

Hasbeen, I don't think we should look to Papua New Guinea for inspiration on how to suggest the best way to support Indigenous Australians.

They may not have social security available to help their indigenous Papuans, but they have had to allow a multitude of Aid agencies and missionary groups to assist their poorest people to survive.

Is that what you think we should set up in our Aboriginal communities?
Should we ask that overseas Aid agencies come to Australia and set up house in our remote Aboriginal communities?

I think we can do better than that.

obvious plight,
Suzeonline,
Phrases like this one do not shed light on the reality of any given situation for any group of people.. A plight can be the result of many circumstances including outside interference, lack of motivation & self control & general mentality.
The only thing obvious is the general ignorance of the situation.
I see great efforts to help on a daily basis & let me assure you appreciation is shown by very few recipients. I am told by the few that they feel at a loss themselves at the mentality of many of their community members.

Yes Individual, we are all aware of the problems in both the rural and urban Aboriginal situations.
What would you suggest the solution is though?

Is this the same outfit that spurred the Deputy Sheriff to temporarily abandon his inherent racist ideals in favour of a pre election Intervention of Pretence?

Suzeonline,
There is no solution in the sense of the word & we should stop wasting time, resouces & good will looking for one. The Australian Indigenous have had a raw deal. Everyone knows it, an appology was demanded & eventually delivered. Housing is at a record for any people on this planet as is education, health & legal aid. In my view based on personal experience we could change the situation & improve it.
Make everyone responsible so that they can claim the same entitlements. How ? a star would be for every 18 year old to spend 12 months in the service industry to get an appreciation of what real everyday life requires each & everyone of us to contribute.
Make education a useful tool for the future, train teachers to a much more competent level than presently. Do away with the present unfit selection criteria system for job interviews. Have a panel of people from the field rather than some ignorant academic list of multiple choice questions.
Make the bureaucrats accountable by changing their conditions i.e. non-performance or poor performance results in demotion. Proven corruption results in dismissal without further benefits.
Make Police accountable & id they are outnumbered call a special Army or other force response unit which becomes Police back-up at the first sign of serious problems. Such a unit has to be under Police command otherwise the morons in society will scream Military Rule.
Make delinquents pay for damage caused.
Make up rules regarding television content & entertainment content via referendum.
Make up an equal tax system i.e. a flat tax.
Start with some of these or similar strategies & we will see a smarter, better function & harmonic society within one or two years.

Come to think of it, in what aspects regarding human rights is Australia lagging. Can anyone list some of the lesser known ones please ? Which countries are we lagging behind ? Which countries are the worst ?

No further advanced than when the stolen children stopped. That is how this discussion is going.
Those stolen people are in society, they have not returned to the camps.
So what does this say.
It may have been cruel to a point, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
Either give these people in camps, their own space in their traditional areas away from towns and white man. Or remove the youngest from these camps and educate and train.
Work is not in the indig; colture.
It is the elders holding the young back from advancement. Unless these issues are addressed you can talk in circles for another 100 years or more and still be no further advanced.
Someone will discredit this lot, and give no ulternate solution.
On sale in Alice Springs is a unleaded fuel called Opal, It is unsniffable.

[Deleted for abuse.]

Squeers,
well put ! Clap, clap, clap,....

I appreciate most of the comment,good inside KAEP. Indigenous need not a state or reserve but they need to be guide by they on choice people, recognized by the Australian Government with effective power in the Parliament.We have a good example with Western Australia rural vote and representation.
The indigenous elected only by them need a special status of power in parliament compensating they small number.
Aboriginal council and other organization are probably not representative of them all, and had not effective power.
They elected must do what the base want, like our representative!!
The Indigenous elected are the one to found the solution with help from the present government,the Indigenous people will be regain they free will empowering them for a brighter future.
Most indispensable is to love them like Jesus and interceded for they need e Salvation. The Christian God Word is clear Justice!!Justice=Love God bless the Indigenous Amen (Cosi Sia ) Ciao

...You may all be surprised to learn, The Malcolm Fraser Government of 1977, introduced the CDEP scheme to Aboriginal communities Australia wide. Frasers initiative gave Aboriginals a voice, a job and a direction in life which they themselves could control.

...The CDEP gave Aboriginals a standing in the broader community, comparable to white workers. Malcolm Fraser was in fact a progressive in his time for Aboriginal welfare and rights. To my mind his opinion matters on Human rights for Aboriginals: I think he is not only genuine here, but has put his “money where your mouth is” as proof.

...On the other hand, Howard, Hockey and Brough’s decision to dismantle Frasers progressive incentives of the old CDEP, redirecingt it for political purposes of the Liberals at the time, was ruthless, uncaring and dis-advanced the Aboriginal cause for betterment of their society through their future community employment prospects (an essential human right for any community

Squeers
Yes bravo for a well-aimed, and well-deserved, kick up Malcolm's backside.

If all the money squandered by the born-to-rule mob since 1975 on failed schemes of indigenous social engineering, had simply been divided by the number of Aborigines and given to them in cash, they would all be millionaires and who could say the results would be any worse?

I agree with you (diver dan)
Well said.

Well thank you, Individual, and you too, Peter Hume; I'm glad we occasionally line up.

luigi gigi and diver dan,
I'm well aware of Malcolm's "good works" and incongruously leftist orientation, but he still hides his privilege behind statesmanship, and inequality is not a working class phenomenon.
Indeed he's doubly a hypocrite because he knows that politics is just as populist as human rights, and that the undignified scrambling for the racist vote during elections, from both parties, is the sordid price of power and popular currency.
It's easy to be sanctimonious when you're on the sidelines.

Diver Dan,
I hate to disillusion you but the CDEP scheme was (Bob Katter's grand idea) nothing short of evil. It's a good thing it has finally gone. The new CEA will probably prove to be worse than CDEP.
You can not expect people to have any kind of self worth when you're told up front that your life isn't ever going to improve because bureaucrats constantly fail in providing the economic base needed not to have unemployment.
Oh yeah, it sounds great in the south that people have to work for the dole. What doesn't sound great because you never get to hear it down south is the fact that the monies needed for shipping one useless bureaucrat to communities could actually provide sufficient income for up to four families. The higher ranking ones even more. I guarantee you that if this funding were provide for local employment instead it would improve things all around.

I have lived in communities/towns with aboriginal people and teens then my own age, worked with girlfriend who is aboriginal for many years, in later years a child was fostered by a relative of mine, worked with aboriginal people of all ages, in addition to witnessing the alcohol fueled problems with young aboriginal people in towns on Friday evenings near Reserves.

My suggestions on this topic:
. Taking people out of their alcoholic environments and ensuring that they are fully occupied at least between Monday-Friday needs to be initiated and support given 24/7 for a long period of time by both Government and private health personnel.
. Substituting beer and spirits for Stout or another lighter ale between Monday - Fridays may assist the alcohol problem where it exists.
. Set up detox centres staffed 24/7 near reserves and close to suburbs where aboriginal people are encouraged to visit during school and work days ie Monday - Friday.
. A government run clinic built and set up near Reserves, staffed 24/7 to support many of the communities, in particular children.

Dealing with addictions are the root of the problem, thereafter things become easier.

I am referring directly to the excuses made by some of this generation about their older generation, who indeed suffered greatly, in comparison to aboriginal people now in their 20's and 30's with children, some of whom raise 20 and 30+ year history that in reality was their grandparents history, and not their own (history) playing victim.
. Enforcing children to attend school via implementation of programs whereby children are collected by a couple of government workers or teachers daily doing role call, offering incentives for children and their parents.

Most people of any Aboriginal descent over the last 30 years have in fact been given homes for free, some with low mortgages, others with inexpensive rent, ongoing financial assistance and exclusive/prioritised rights to thousands of government and private jobs/positions including vast acres of land set aside for Aboriginal people to reside.

Individual and others on the subject:

I acknowledge your comment.

...Until there is born a universal attack on the Alcohol industry, our society will continue on the course to crumble; from top to bottom, left to right and black to white. Stop seeing the notion of “getting Bent” as socially acceptable.

...Stop accepting Alcohol as a celebrant lotion altogether. Cease to project the wine industry as successful when actually it presides over social destruction. Legislate out any attempt of the Alcohol industry to appear normal: until the total industry withers like grapes on the vine.

...Outlaw the consumption of Alcohol in all communities Australia wide, with incarceration the option for offenders. Align prohibition of Alcohol with illicit drugs. At that point, sanity can be said to prevail, and the advancement of the Aboriginal cause may begin.
I rest my case!

Thanks Malcolm and Friends and showing that plenty of Ostriches are hard at it , Plenty of People that feel powerless, that this gross act of Racial discrimination is being perpetuated.
Meanwhile the Politicians are not listening - we must redouble our efforts !
The attack on Aboriginal Languages and Culture is my biggest concern with the compulsory four hours of lessons in English alienating both Elders, parents and grandparents .
Listening to an Education expert in the NT - he said that lessons should be done in their birth tongue until they are ten years old ,as English is more easily taught and learnt after that -with Elders ,Parents and Grandparents more Relative and Encouraging in their Earlier years .
Perhaps there could be Adult English Classes to help close the Gap.
Julia Gillard talks of "The aunty in the country town who tells the stories to the young".....what language will the story be in ??
Will it have to be in English because Liberal and Labour Policies treat the learning of complete Aboriginal Languages as a barrier to Closing The Gap !
In the Eastern States there is a huge black hole in Aboriginal Culture... that is the loss of their Languages .
Indigenous Australians should be Bi-Lingual .

Like the War in Iraq, the Australian NT Intervention is an attack on
Indigenous Culture based on "Invention" .

Collateral Damage, well ,white colonial governments have no knowledge of this .
Remember they didn't report the casualities in Iraq .

so k..jim .. what do you suggest?

its all to easy and repetitive to criticize without offering anything constructive at all, we get it that you don't like Australian culture, imagine, learning english! What good is that, apart form being able to read books, the internet, understand street signs etc .. I can see your point, so then all those who only speak some obscure language only a handful understand are helpless in the world. Is that good on someone's world view?

Without going into the expense of such an exercise, we'd only be up for more apologies and accusations in 20+ years that we "failed" this generation by not enabling them in the current age of instant communication .. they wouldn't even be able to use a phone.

I guess that helps perpetuate the available victims though for the victim industry to roll out as examples of Australia's failure.

Bottom line, alcohol is not going to be banned, no one is going to perpetually mollycoddle those who want to remain on the public (taxpayer's) teat .. at some stage, you have to either accept the responsibility of running your own life, or succumb to squalor and a harsh life ..the choice is there.

perhaps, the ones in this position, want to be in it .. does anyone ever look at this situation and say, hey that's what they want, let's stop badgering them to be something they are not and leave them to it .. make sure they don't starve to death and get out of their lives.

stop making it everyone's problem ..it isn't, for 223 odd years, not much has changed .. but we still don't get it that that's they way they like it .. can't we take the hint?

We haven't failed at all, the people who we supposedly need to save, don't think they have a problem. it's our bleeding heart society who has the problem, with people who do not want to lift themselves to their level.

RPG I said something like that and didn't rate a response.

Some news today

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/locals-to-quit-town-of-despair/story-e6frg13u-1226009206950

'Oombulgurri became notorious as a haven for child sexual abuse, suicide and despair after a damning 2008 report by West Australian Coroner Alastair Hope found child abuse, neglect and alcoholism were rife.

'Millions of dollars were ploughed into the community to tackle the conditions after the damning coronial report, and Mr Walker said his agency alone had spent almost $300,000 in the past 18 months.'

Another waste of lives and millions of dollars to appease the likes of the United Nations and those who adhere to their dogmas.

Runner , so now we are in WA for a change .
If you don't care ,so be it .
For me , understanding police that can work WITH Communities , Strong ,sober Elders and parents are the answer .
You can also have a go at limiting the alcohol abuse ,root of evil in your white society, with Four Billion dollars of Damage to us if you think the Aboriginal Problem [remember that old comment ]is too much for you .
It takes a big effort and Law application in a Culturally appropriate way , not Cultural Abuse and "Change" for a warm fuzzy feeling !

Kartiua Jim What do you suggest to remedy problems. [Please}

kartiya jim,

'If you don't care ,so be it .'

Please kartiya I am a long way from perfect as other posters gleefully point out however I would not sit in gutters and spend my own money on feeding aboriginals (from my own pocket) who have spent all their money on grog if I did not care. You are yet to offer a solution.

...Outlaw the consumption of Alcohol in all communities Australia wide
Diver Dan,
I recall torrents of accusation of racism in the earlier days when the catch-cry was that Indigenous people weren't allowed in a Pub or obtain alcohol like other Australians. Following the right to vote, Indigenous were finally allowed to drink in bars etc. everyone breathed a sigh of approval. Those who spoke out against it were accused of being rednecks & racist. Fifty years later some Australians are advocating going back to the days of indigenous not having access to alcohol.
If that's not the full circle then what is. There are indingenous who can't hold a drink just like there are many non-indigenous who can't handle grog either. Banning alcohol is not tackling the cause because it's not alcohol that is the problem but peoples' mentality, black, white or brindle.

Diver Dan , You are on the money .
As for 579 "Work is not in the Indig; colture" .
This is a load of rot 579 - they can and do work just as hard as us .
They were healthier than the first Settlers .
Why would you say such untruths ??
Anyway so what if they don't want to work - if we paid them for OUR Theft of their country ,like English Country Squires they could sit back and have us work for them .

Are you aware that in some community the Indigenous had chose to ban alcohol and that was working well!
If was enlarged the result was to be amazing,they had to choose that way,if we live with other we need in some occasion to uphold the majority so the trouble one had a choice go or get help.
Here we are talking of rape and the rest by intoxicated people.
By law severely punishable,the Indigenous have they law to both of this are ignore.The realty is,if you get drank for all to be accountable of consequence.Not excuse Mini mus hard community service.The reason we can't drink any longer during worker hours was the cost!Now Rape in the community is less costly?
Luigi Gigi

579,

Barely ten per cent of Indigenous people live in rural and remote communities. As the Census will show later this year, close to half of the entire Indigenous population lives in metropolitan areas and large cities like Cairns and Geelong and Newcastle. There are more Indigenous people in Brisbane and Sydney than in the region around Alice Springs.

More than 26,000 Indigenous people have graduated from universities around the country - that's one in every nine adults, in barely twenty years - and by 2020, there could be fifty thousand, one in every seven in what will be a rapidly growing adult population. Of course, most of these graduates are, and will continue to be, from the cities, where people don't have land rights, don't get royalties, don't get free houses. And where most employed Indigenous people, especially graduates, are on the healthy side of the Gap.

Make no mistake, the people in the remote areas are on the wrong side of what is really a wider Gap than is depicted by the aggregated figures. Suicide amongst bored, unemployable, illiterate young Aboriginal people is fifteen and twenty times the national rate - how on earth can anybody tolerate that, Kartiya Jim ?

How to get the next generation out of this rut ?

Certainly, teach English, as well as other languages, to the kids.

Make sure they are literate by the second grade.

Make sure parents are aware of their basic human responsibilities to feed their own kids, clothe their own kids, keep their own kids safe, get them off to school -and let's not BS about cost - they have access to royalties and standard welfare benefits, plus remote locality allowances - am I right, Individual ?

Let's assume that Aboriginal people, even in remote areas, are capable human beings.

Let's assume they can carry out standard minimal human functions, in relation to their own kids.

Let's bury the racism of low expectations. Let's encourage people to have higher expectations of themselves. If not for them, then for their kids' sakes. Let's not destroy another generation.

Joe

Joe, I have been so hopeful that you participate in this thread ... you are knowledgeable, experienced and very credible in these issues. Please, expand on your thoughts - it would help.
Regards.

Joe [loudmouth],
You will be happy to know that the Saints [ mainly Aboriginal ] Football team in Broome have a Campaign to Prevent Suicide in their's and other Communities in the Kimberleys.
They also Fund Raised enough money to take the Anti - Suicide message to Ireland's marginalised youth after winning their Grandfinal last Season .
As white People we have a lot of problems with the youth of any group ,particularly one that is black and speaks another language and could well have Generational resentment about their Illegal Dispossion of their Lands.
The Maori have their Treaty of Waitangi from 1865 - Australian Aboriginals have been left with very little of Substance and once again they are having their Rights "Legally" abused by NT and Federal Laws .
What happened to our Promises of 1836 in the Letters Patent, King William the Sixth's Directions for the Settlement of South Australia and NT .
".....Always that nothing in those our Letters Patent contained shall affect or be construed to affect the rights of any Aboriginal Natives of the said Province to the actual occupation or enjoyment in their own Persons or in the Persons of their Descendants of any Lands therein now actually occupied or enjoyed by such Natives" etc.

Bonmot,

I think you are having a lend of me:) Individual and Suze and some other contributors have far more experience than me, and much more interesting things to say. But hey, thanks anyway.

Joe

Jim,

I don't think you can keep using the Theft of Land or Terra Nullius excuses for the behaviour of those poor young people in northern and remote communities - precisely in those areas,they are likely to have access to their own lands, and have had for forty years now, well before they were born in most cases.

Meanwhile, in the south or settled areas, people lost control of their land more than 150 years ago, yet have picked themselves up, on the whole, and got on with coping with life around them, whatever it threw at them.

Surely it would be closer to the truth to see those young people as bored sh!tless, unskilled, uneducated, illiterate, with poor English (i.e. the lingua franca), with very poor understanding ofthe world around them, and the dreadful role models of their own parents and elders boozing and fighting - or sitting around, bored sh!tless as well - all bloody day.

What have we done to people ? What have they done to themselves ? How can people get back the sense of responsibility that ordinary humans are expected to possess ? How can they join the rest of common humanity ?

No, it's not all smooth sailing for people in the south, or in settled areas: even graduates often get pigeon-holed and confined to de facto segregated Indigenous units.

One wonders when Indigenous people will truly be recognised as full and equal human beings, with full human potential and full human responsibilities. The day will surely come.

Joe

Jo Says,
"I don't think you can keep using the Theft of Land or Terra Nullius excuses for the behaviour of those poor young people in northern and remote communities - precisely in those areas,they are likely to have access to their own lands, and have had for forty years now, well before they were born in most cases."
I wonder how you, your children and Grandchildren would react today had the Japanese been successfull in their attempt to take over Australia? Maybe down The creek with a carton of beer with our Aboriginal Australian Brothers and Sisters ?
They have some land ,but there are many thousands of Aboriginal People of working age and they would prefer to live in their own country .
Cattle stations owned by single white families are hundreds or 1000's of Sq.Kilometres each - these are the sizes required for whitefella lifestyle! Is that what you want for them ?
We had better start buying up the good land with the best water .
The Best of Aboriginal [ex] land is owned by white and overseas Companies and mustered by Helicopters ,not manpower .Have a look at any map .
I think Housing and Health are the most important achievable and usefull factors for Aboriginal People - not an illusory whitefella lifestyle with an Education to nowhere and bring work to them .

Jim,

Try to read what people write before you pre-judge what you think they might have written.

Then get back to me :)

Joe

I did say work was not in the indig; colture. I was referring to the indig; of 250 years ago. That is where their colture is.
There is black indig; and every other shade to white. The whiter the indig; the more common the schooling and university attendance.
Those camps in the NT are black indig; They talk their own lingo, That is why i say nothing has ever changed, Isn't this the indig; communities we are talking about

No matter how justified people are to claim discrimination the claims are by large exploited as excuses which then makes their claims just as hypocritical as those against whom the claims are aimed.
This claim & counterclaim industry won't fade until some people gain a sense of responsibility & others gain some decency & still others gain some give rather than take mentality which excludes blaming everyone else.
The middle of the road people are fine, it's the each end extreme bleaters that are the cause of no harmony.

There's a brilliant little book out by Amy Wax, law professor somewhere in the US: "Rights, Wrongs and Remedies". The gist of her argument is that, no matter what may have happened to someone, no matter how bad they have copped it, there can be no 'remedy' unless they get involved - I mean 'involved', doing it, not just sitting around pontificating, getting 'consulted' - that they must get up and do for themselves. Of course governments and agencies must do what they can but it's like someone even being spoon-fed - they have to try to swallow. And Indigenous people don't need spoon-feeding, surely.

So policies should ENABLE people to get up and do for themselves, not to rely on outside agencies for the most basic functions. Surely parents can look after their own kids ? Surely young people can do basic courses, then more advanced courses, and get themselves in the position of being able to work, even at the most unskilled jobs ? Surely they are not entirely useless ? Surely a 'community' has enough backbone to beat the daylights out of child-abusers and gutless wife-beaters ? Where is Kevin Gilbert when we need him ?

There are close to twenty seven thousand Indigenous university graduates, twenty four thousand of those in the last twenty years. Yes, mostly they are people who do not have their own land, who have had to pick themselves up and get on with life, but they have shown what Indigenous people can do, they are genuine heroes in my book.

People can do that, so why not the most basic skills ? This is bullsh!t. Are people in remote communities utterly useless ? Does 'community' life an all manner of public services infantilise people for life ? I refuse to believe that ! They lived off very harsh country, more or less, for fifty thousand years - why can't they perform the most basic functions in much better social and economic conditions now ? This is so shameful !

[TBC]

Joe

[cont.]

People have to be actively involved in their own liberation, in their own self-determination. But this can only happen if they do it and not have it all done for them by fairy godmothers and bureaucrats. So how to enable people to work hard in their own interests ? What skills would they need NOW if that is to happen ? EVER ?

Many people in the north and in remote areas are on their own land. Many people have never NOT been on their own land ! I'm sure that many other people have always perceived, or believed, TAKEN FOR GRANTED, that their land has always been theirs, they have never been off it. Their kids were not taken into care. So let's not blame history for what it didn't do.

In fact, let's get right away from blame and get onto the practicalities of how people can take on standard, human responsibilities, of looking after their kids, of treating each other like human beings, of putting in as well as taking out.

I know these might be huge conceptual shifts for people used to having everything done for them, down to 'home-makers' cleaning their houses and washing their clothes and feeding their kids and wiping their backsides. But sooner or later, people have to understand how the real world, the outside world, actually works - i.e. in the first place, by WORKING, by doing as much as possible for themselves; in the second place, by filling up many of the non-working hours in domestic functions, like looking after each other.

That might be an entirely new experience, but other Indigenous people have done it - they've had to, over 150-200 years - so why can't the people in remote 'communities', on their own land ? Why shouldn't they ?

Joe

So you are cranky Joe, well so am I ,particularly with your "So why can't they ??" Attitude that has no answers with it .
None the less it is a good Question that very rarely gets asked to the Indigenous people involved. The "we know what's best" brigade get the job and it's all downhill from there.
The question is not asked because the answer is too hard give if you're a politician or a Government Worker that needs to pay their bills .
I'm a bit disgusted with your comment of "wiping their Backsides".

There are probably millions of white and other immigrant Australians parents that PAY to have their Kid's bums wiped at preschools ,playschools and kindergarten while they are off at work , at the movies or at the theatre.
I know quite a lot of Aboriginal People - wiping bums is a family job - not given to outsiders by choice.

What about giving them enough of the whites' good land back INCLUDING minerals ,as they have done in Northern Canada so that they can make a living off it and you can take a tax break Joe .

Nope that won't work - our standard of living and tax rates in Australia are determined by how much Aboriginal land can be dug up and railed by BHP & Co,[and Taxed] to Port Hedland or Gove and shipped to China .

Hi Jim,

Over the past few years on threads like this, I've put forward my own ideas about what may conceivably be done, if this and if that. I don't presume to have any definite answers and it's not my job: wouldn't that be pretty arrogant ? No, I "don't know best".

This was my point: ultimately, it's up to the people to nut out their own problems and solutions, it's not up to me or you or any outsiders. It's called growing up and facing one's responsibilities.

But as I keep trying to say, in the south, Indigenous people have done wonders in tertiary education - so the obvious question, even taking into account the obvious differences and difficulties of remote-area, non-English-speaking, illiterate people, is "why can't they do something along similar lines ?"

What don't you understand about ".... they have shown what Indigenous people can do, they are genuine heroes in my book", Jim ?

In the north, Indigenous people now have a sixth of Australia, half a million square miles. Down the south and in the settled areas, yes, you're right, they have bugger-all land. Yet they have got on with life. Heroes, Jim.

I hope that people can say the same about people in northern communities in the near future :) Unless I'm mistaken, people in remote areas are more or less as intelligent as anybody else, barring the FAS and effects of grog, head-battering, crap fast-food diet and drugs. So why not ?

And surely isn't it incredibly racist to assume that people can't ? The racism of low expectations ?

Joe

kartya jim, when people get over the sense of entitlement that is taught to them or offered as an excuse for all manner of behaviour, they can get on with their lives.

it's a no gain game to constantly bemoan the lack of whatever it is you think is the solution, if only we had a gold mine, or some land that our ancestors had 100s of years ago .. when evidently they didn't care about possessions, but now have been taught to be grasping towards everything

the rest of Australia don't have that sense of entitlement, they get on and make their lives, never dreaming for a moment that things might change and the government might shower them with money .. yet still have happy productive lives.

if aboriginals were to understand that it is never going to happen and if the aboriginal industry is stopped from constant legal battles to try to get back land or whatever it is they want this time, things might change

pigs might fly too .. it's hopeless and all that happens is the cycle goes around and around. most Australians don't care much about aboriginals as they are seen to be mollycoddled and pampered, then spit in our faces and demand more, and at the same time curse us

patience runs out .. eventually we'll have enough migrants who had nothing to do with english heritage running the place with zero sense of guilt or sympathy for aboriginals .. that's when it will change.

I'd suggest the aboriginal's problems will get worse not better .. the guilt trip will not last, nor will our patience

Amicus says " the rest of Australia don't have that sense of entitlement,"...... Amicus, what world are you living in ?
White and Immigrant Australians, never stop winging and crying for Five Star Everything ...Social Services ,World's Best Health Care ,roads ,housing , Interest rate subsidies , Cheaper Public Transport ,more subsidies for private schools ,Big Business Tax Subsidies,better this and cheaper that .
"...don't have that sense of Entitlement"?? Amicus I hope ,no doubt in vain, that you are not serious .
Remote Aboriginal Australians are left to fend for themselves and only rate a nasty mention and a miniscule effort ,when it suits the Politicians looking for a few cheap votes from One Nation and other detritus, of the same style.
It is no accident that Aboriginal Australians have less per head spent on them for Health and Housing and that they are sicker and have a shortened life ...the Services [even 2 star] and determination to to help the First Australians have NEVER been there ... it's Policy ,nothing less !
Change the Policy !

Loudmouth , IF you agree with Amicus ,consider the Post addressed to you also . Cheers, Jim .

Hi Jim,

Amicus speaks for himself, and I speak for myself.

Frankly, I'm not as interested in what people in the north are doing for themselves as I am in the majority Indigenous population, in the towns and cities, and what they are achieving.

Nearly twenty seven thousand university graduates, and eleven thousand current students, for instance (hey, that's 15 % of the entire adult population right there).

Obviously, by inference, what those people can do, so eventually, and with incredible difficulties, the people in 'communities' can do.

But no, Jim, with respect, I disagree with you that Indigenous people have less spent on their health per head than other Australians. Firstly, the urban population overwhelmingly avails itself of standard health services, as other Australians do. So the specific health budget set aside for Indigenous people really relates only to a minority of the Indigenous population. Given the necessarily small scale of many services provided to Indigenous people in remote and small communities, I don't have any problem with this. But let's not pretend that there is any financial shortfall.

Health is a lifestyle issue: people, including Indigenous people, who are employed, taking on all the responsibilities of raising their families and treating each other right, tend to have far fewer health problems that people who are unemployed, heavily into the grog and drugs, sh!tty food, very little exercise or activity, knocking each other around and live totally aimless lives - Black OR white. The Gap is a function of lifestyle, not of history, not of some sort of innate Aboriginality - how racist is that ?!

So the situation is remediable, changeable, fixable. But it may well require the people to want to change, and then to change, their behaviour. Big ask, yes, but there will be no solutions without Indigenous people being part of them, making changes in their own behaviour in the first instance, and nobody else can do THAT for them.

It's their call.

Joe

Jim,

Mal Brough has an interesting proposal today:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/politics-news/nt-intervention-stagnant-just-another-failed-plan-mal-brough/story-fn59nqld-1226012282587

He proposes that the rehabilitation and education process should involve heavy drinkers, but of course it might involve only people who have also committed serious offences.

Let's examine another proposal: this one may not have to involve minor offenders, at least at first, but certainly major offenders, violent offenders, should be offered the option of doing their full sentence OR finishing a course of roughly equivalent length, obviously one relevant to their level of education and to their work preference, if any.

Surely it would be better if someone who gets, say, five years for accidentally but brutally bashing his beloved to death, spends that time getting a five-year education than just sitting in a cell or in the main lounge room, watching daytime TV ?

On those criteria, someone who commits a minor offence, say smashing all the shop windows in Todd Street, and cops two years, should be able to exchange that sentence for a two-year course - it may involve, for argument's sake, a year of English-language and a year of literacy training, with a bit of manual work, just to experience it for the first time, like people do out in the real world.

A major offender, who has, say, brutally beaten his second beloved to death over a five-hour period, involving rocks, bottles, star pickets and heavy boots, might get fifteen years - he could be given the opportunity to complete a range of courses over fifteen years, ranging from English-language (say one year), literacy (another year), Certificates I-IV (four years), a trades course apprenticed to a tradesman employed within the training establishment (four years), and then five years of working around the establishment gaining experience in his trade = fifteen years.

Would such a man be rehabilitated ? Or would be turn his boots onto a third beloved ? It would be worth the gamble, since he would be out anyway, sooner or later, trained or not trained.

Jim,

You might find this NT government media release interesting:

NT Indigenous Expenditure Highest of All Jurisdictions: on
http://newsroom.nt.gov.au/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewRelease&id=7906&d=5

containing these illuminating sentences:

“Today’s report found the Territory Government spent $2.16 billion in 2008-09 on services for Indigenous people which equates to 53.9 per cent of all of the NT expenditure. In comparison, Indigenous people comprise about 30 per cent of the Territory’s population. ” [Treasurer] Ms Lawrie said.

"This means per capita spending on Indigenous people was 2.7 times higher than non?Indigenous people in the Territory.

“The report found that more than half of NT Government spending in the areas of early childhood development, schools and training, healthy lives, home environment and safe and supportive communities benefited Indigenous Territorians.”

Fair enough, there's a lot of catch-up to do. But let's not pretend that the issues still revolve around poor funding. Surely they also involve people's responses to their situation ? i.e. whether they take responsibility for their own lives or keep trying to palm that off onto governments ?

Meanwhile, in settled and urban areas, university enrolments of Indigenous people look like breaking yet more records - there could be more than five thousand commencements this year, i.e. new enrolments, [remember a young age-group contains around 8,000-9,000 people] , i.e. the equivalent of MORE THAN HALF of a young Indigenous age-group commences university study for the first time. Where do you see that in the world ? Heroes in the making !

And a record of more than eleven thousand enrolments. Bloody heroes !

By the end of this year, there could be more than 28,000 [twenty eight thousand, no mistake] Indigenous university graduates across the country, mainly in the towns and cities. That's one in nine adults, roughly what the situation is in many parts of Europe. Not bad, in barely twenty years. Heroes !

Joe

Hi again Jim,

Inside Story has another useful article:

http://inside.org.au/big-problems-in-alice-springs/

I hope that one day, people will be writing about Indigenous successes, and I don't mean just in sport or art, either. Maybe when there are fifty thousand university graduates, almost all working across the country, providing role models for all Australians, maybe then there will be too many to ignore. Maybe then, people will acknowledge that Indigenous people are as competent and as able as anybody else.

Or maybe they will just keep their eyes shut. You don't have to think too hard if your eyes are shut.

Joe

Ah, what we have wanted since we Invaded Joe, the problem solved.........they're just like us .

Cheers,Jim.

That's right, Jim, human beings, with equal human rights, and genuine equal opportunities.

What would you prefer that Indigenous people do ? Education is power, Jim, don't kid yourself that people in the camps around Alice Springs have any power, just because they can knock each other around and tell white fellas to 'f-ck off.'.

Why do you assume (as it seems you do) that an Indigenous person with a good education (let alone tens of thousands) is somehow less preferable ? Do you think they are 'less Indigenous' ? More 'manageable' ?

Here's an experiment for you, Jim: find an Indigenous graduate and tell them that they've done something wrong by studying, that they are less Indigenous. But get ready to jump back quick-smart.

Yes, it's certainly true that some people can't imagine genuine equality in others.

Joe