Liz,

Your arguments are absurd and intellectually dishonest. The comparisons you use are non-political. Hoody wearers are mere fashion victims and are likely disaffected youths (they have NO POLITICAL cause, and I don't believe they are tribal - seems they only seek cool) - ie. no threat. And as for the nuns - they wore habits to separate themselves symbolically from the secular world because they were married to God, so assisted their vocation- religious, clergy, right? They didn't cause any social anxiety (unlike the niqabs) that is why there was no fuss! Purely their religious vocation - totally benign and unquestionable. They are not political, so no threat. Why haven't you realised this? And the nuns have since lightened up their dress since Vatican II even though there was no fuss caused to society in general. And as for Irish Catholic bashing? Please..... I'm pretty sure Irish Catholicism doesn't espouse murdering (?). Is there something I've overlooked here where they are now threatening the world all-over? Haven't you noticed times (and that there are murderers in all cultures)have changed and it is a different world we're living in now. You seem to be completely ignorant that Islam is not just a relgion, but an ideology and moreso at it's most fundamental, very political and dangerous. Hello? You have heard of honor killings, haven't you (and I won't bother mentioning the bleeding obvious)? Also includes suicides, particularly from Muslim women living in the west that have innocently given away some inkling of becoming westernised. What is reported is just the tip of the iceburg. And that 30-40% of English Muslims believe that any Muslims converting to another religion should be killed. Do you find this disconcerting? And of course the rest. But I don't have the time. You are just naively protecting and deterring any REFORM. The mainly ex-Muslim activists (maybe a couple still Muslims -not sure) I cited in my previous post (you never responded?) dearly want REFORM within Islam. Have you ever heard of any of these women, Liz?

Cont.....

.../Cont. White guilt feel-good fawning is just useful idiocy and is so ignorantly pretentious. And please don't use the racism et al platitudes. It get's really boringly repetitive and is blatantly dodgy, and unfairly quashes any real debate. And this isn't about racism, it is about bad ideology. There is no golden rule in Islam of Love Thy Neigbour for a start. I don't know if it was included in Sufism, but at least that sect of Islam seems to be the prettier of the others - the mystical part. Which is what religion means to me and of which contributes to the intellect also. But unfortunately the other Muslim sects do not seem to like Sufism and their voice consequentially is never heard.

/Cont...

.../Cont. Liz,

I am equally disgusted with the sexualisation of children and females, and cringe with raunch culture. But you must realise that Islam does sexualise this also insidiously by way of covering up the girl conspicuously who has once reached puberty. Niqabs et al are far too extreme and are just as ostentatious as the more common scantily clad that have lost any real culture. But the sexualised exhibitionism is not politcal, only mindlessness (still, I worry) but at least they have freedom all the same. And I must say, when I encounter a niqab clad being, I feel offended and feel like I'm being perved at and that it is not an open two way street - ie. they have power over me and it in itself makes me very uncomfortable. If you are all for niqab, you are denying human nature and its physicality and natural freedom. Was there a response somewhere that the complete cover up of body brings equality. Ha. We are each born ugly, beautiful and in between - we are not all born equal in this way physically. If you cannot accept that, you are denying humans and are just playing envy and jealosy that will not be admitted. And it is an unnatural separation of the sexes. Why are the men so sexually fixated, paranoid and insecure in this innane display of protection/oppression of their women. They need to grow up. It is completely absurd and a denial of human nature. I've never seen Muslim culture dancing together between the sexes or otherwise and it seems they have not much liking for music and even seem to try to ban it. There seems to be so much darkness. At the same time, I think the West could actually learn or at least be reminded of modesty from Muslims in some way but not so ostentatiously.

As Nietsche said when God goes, so does the West. I'm no zealot and hardly religious myself.

Some here need to be reminded again that the issue is about wearing the burqua which is a cultural tradition also practised by some but by no means all Muslims.

Liz has latched onto something I've said in order to caste me again as her fictitious "racist" opponent.

In fact, dear Liz I have Australian Muslims in my extended family who are close relatives by marriage - people I care for dearly - given their large families there are many relatives. Not one that I know of wears the burqua although a few of the more oppressed homebound wives wear a hijab when they go out, a practice I find offensive only on the basis that it appears to signify disempowered women who bow to male domination.

I am aware of several instances of serious abuse of women within this wider extended family/culture although not amongst my close relatives, as if to abuse women (seen as possessions of men) were a male right within this culture.

I am also aware of instances of mental illness amongst males in this wider extended family - who is to say why this is so, perhaps a background of trauma in a war torn part of the world, or perhaps due to the unreal and out of touch way that many of them seek to live/oppressive practices they seek to perpetuate in Australia where their perspectives/sense of reality are constantly challenged.

"I am also aware of instances of mental illness amongst males in this wider extended family - who is to say why this is so, perhaps a background of trauma in a war torn part of the world, or perhaps due to the unreal and out of touch way that many of them seek to live/oppressive practices they seek to perpetuate in Australia where their perspectives/sense of reality are constantly challenged."

This would not be helped by the high level of consanguineous marriages amongst Arabs, Saudis in particular. Over generations, this is not good for the gene pool. In the past in may have been alleviated by the taking (euphemism, and I mean in the sense of "taking that woman") of "right hand possessions" (slaves taken in war) where the resultant children were of mixed race, since the Arabs took slaves from all over the Islamic empire (including Europe). This would not be the case today, even though slavery (and "right hand possessions") are still perfectly legal under Islamic law. Hence the large number of black "Palestinians".

Constance:”Was there a response somewhere that the complete cover up of body brings equality.”

Almost… depends if your shoes are prettier.

Constance:“We are each born ugly, beautiful and in between - we are not all born equal in this way physically. If you cannot accept that, you are denying humans and are just playing envy and jealosy that will not be admitted.”

I accept it, I just feel sorry for the ugly ones.

Constance:”And it is an unnatural separation of the sexes. Why are the men so sexually fixated, paranoid and insecure in this innane display of protection/oppression of their women.”

Dunno but in places where the chicks wear the burqa the men are all covered up too. I’m not sure which is scarier, a jealous man or a jealous woman. Have you seen what those poor men who have several wives go through? Yeah seemed like a good idea at the time I bet.

Viking from what I saw keeping the money in the family leads to cousins marrying cousins… not a big deal until those cousins marry the other ones and the genes get closer. Saudi has “child cancer” wards full of mutated children. Fascinating what money (not religion) will do.