@JanF - "Liz, if you think I could be bothered reading that dense diatribe, you are mistaken.Posted by JanF, Monday, 13 December 2010 1:18:28 PM"

Ditto!

I ask people to remember, that around the world, including this country, millions of people who practise the Islamic faith do so in a quiet and deliberate manner; they uphold human rights and don't discriminate the role of women, nor do they commit acts of violence!

I find it intriguing the people who demonise the Islamic faith without even a hint of acknowledgement to the Bible and its history. The Old Testament dictated, that working on the Sabbath should bring about execution; that it was OK to have sex with your kids etc?

To those who think we should get rid of Islam, what's to stop those who do the banning include you in their next program? Who does the banning? How do you stop them moving on to either other religions or political points of view? Remove any right to join a political party, like the Burmese do? That is why we have basic human rights in this country and respect the fact, that people have the right to lead their own lives in their own way, without interference from the Parliament, Police Force or the Judiciary - the 3 arms of the political part of the country. I agree with this view!

Do people think that banning Islam would make life better for women?

As for the Taliban, they were encouraged by the US, as were Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. If people are anti the Taliban(which I am)why are the US/NATO forces allowing them to join their puppet Karzai in the Afghani Parlt? Why do they allow the war lords and others to keep on killing the citizens of that country?Why didn't they scream when the war criminals now in the Parlt, introduce Legislation that prevents them ever being called to account for their rapes, torture and horrific killings?

(cont).
There were Afghanis in Australia at least 100 yrs ago, they helped build the West, that's why the train from Perth to Darwin is called The Ghan. They lived their lives,raised their kids and practised their Islamic faith, without too much notice from the rest of the country. Their descendants are still here, doing the same thing.

The abuse of women in countries that practice the Islamic faith is not just applicable to Muslims. For example,female genital mutilation is a cultural and economic practise that is spread over the population, including Christians.There are the clothes, the celebrations beforehand and those who perform this practise, which has created an economic component.(I attended a seminar by the body in NSW whose role is to educate Muslims who are living here - it is illegal in NSW, probably everywhere in Aust. I hope!)

When the US carried on over 9/11 and immediately used it as a means to further their goals for the Middle East, they put themselves in the same or worse position than those they criticised.
9/11 was a horrific crime and should've been treated as such.
those allegedly responsible came from Saudi Arabia and Yemen, not Afghanistan.
the US got rid of the waste and rubble with undue haste, instead of treating it as evidence at a crime scene.
the bin Laden family were allowed to leave the US the next day?strange, considering they thought OBL was to blame.
the US treated the workers in an appalling manner - they've just won their Court case for damages - many are dying, others have died, due to the myriad of toxins inhaled!

I'd find the arguments re the Taliban's cruelty as having some credibility, if the same arguments were put forward re the US/NATO and allies, including us. Why is it horrific for someone with a turban killing someone worse,than removing a child's head with an automatic weapon carried by a US or Australian military person? What is OK with phosphorus bombs,or cluster bombs or bombs made from Depleted Uranium, that are causing birth defects and cancers NOW and will continue to do so years after the West leaves their countries?

I find the selective rage interesting and frustrating! A drone can remove a whole village or wedding party of 20-? people!Is that better because it's sophisticated and with no human involved on the ground?

If the aim is to bring "peace and democracy" to the people of Iraq & AFghanistan, how come we're killing so many? How come,that even after we realised there were no WMD's, we went on and killed over 1 million people? What part of justice is that?

How many people in the Middle East/Latin & Central America, Vietnam & Israel etc killed Westerners, and how many has the United States and its Allies killed in those countries? I know who the real terrorists are?Afghanistan hasn't invaded other countries in the past 30+ years?

So Liz,

1. Give Afghanistan back to the Taliban to exploit as an Islamist haven ?

2. Put up with the Yanks and us staying there for some time ?

3. ??

Meanwhile, back to the topic: if the only way that some Muslim women can get out of the house and see something of the world around them is to wear what their mothers and grandmothers have been wearing, then the issue of banning or not banning the burqa (i.e. the nikab ? the hijab ?) becomes: should Muslim women be allowed out in public ?

Surely the answer to that question has to be YES ? What they wear, and how long they will put up with clothing restrictions and stipulations in the comparatively open Australian society ('comparatively', Liz) is their internal 'cultural business'.

In the meantime, I'll bet that there won't be any burqa-driven bank robberies, or even all that many car accidents. And how on earth can such garments represent any sort of threat to anybody ? Jesus, get a life.

Joe

@LOUDMOUTH - Who are you asking to "get a life"? Me or Joe?

As for the Taliban & Afghanistan. The war lords committed just as many horrific crimes of violence as the Taliban. These people, together with many in the Karzai govt have their own militia - there's three forces in Afghanistan,and Malalai Joya insists, that the Afghan people want the US/NATO forces out as they could then deal with those Afghanis who are oppressing them so badly. In fact, they're assisting the foreign troops; keeping the people intimidated and terrified just like they are in Iraq?If the violence decreased due to the troops being there, perhaps it could be argued they should stay, but by the US's own words, this has been the most violent year, and there's not much talk of improvement - unless you just follow their media bs!

Why doesn't the US say to Karzai - this violence must stop; you must get rid of the criminals by having them charged etc. No! That's not an option for the US because they don't give a stuff about the people, men woman and kids!If they did, they'd remove the land mines, the cluster bombs and depleted uranium bombs! Then, the people wouldn't need to flee!
But to those here who've carried the line, we should just ban Islam due to their violence, I say, let's look at ourselves first - we're no great role models - they hate us, and I don't blame them one bit!

I've used up my 4 posts for 24 hrs I think!

Sorry, Liz, I certainly didn't mean you, only those who go on about banning the almost non-existent burqa, and who find it (or the nikab ? or the hijab ?) 'threatening', or 'offensive', as if it was all about them.

Yes, it would be wonderful if there was a third way in Afghanistan, as Malalai Joya suggests (what a wonderful, brave woman: she could teach Assange a thing or two about courage in the face of almost certain death). If such a third way was viable, I would certainly support it, and I suspect that the Yanks would too: I don't think they are actively seeking to send troops hither and yon at the moment, they have too many other troubles.

But in the event that a third way can't really be developed, at least not for a few years, then I would prefer the Yanks to stay rather than the Islamists taking over - if only because of what they might do to Malalai Joya, and the hundreds of thousands of women who have lifted their heads. In fact, Joya and others are probably furious with the Yanks precisely because they have not honoured their implicit promises to bring human rights to Afghanistan, to liberate its women from their cultural yokes.

There's a slogan for the Left, if it actually had the wits, or the decency:

'Human Rights, not Culture !'

- including the right of women to wear whatever they liked.

Joe