In an Islamic country I wore an abaya (burqa) whenever in public. I went to lunch at an American compound once and had to sit through two hours of filthy looks from all the Americans when I refused to remove it. How was I to know that day that I should have worn clothes underneath? But instead like all westerners they just leapt to their conclusions. :)

I thought most religions promoted men beating their wives no matter what the dress code?

I have Middle Eastern neighbours who happen to be Catholic and back in the Middle East their family and village for generations has been Catholic. They wear the burqa, big bloody fat hairy deal it isn’t.

I still have my abaya, if I put it on I am suddenly some oppressed Muslim women some of you are going to approach on the street and be kind to? Please don’t, it’s creepy.

I don’t think the Muslims in Fiji wear them or the Indian ones, I don’t really care.

But if I want to wear it, or a cross, turban, one of those Jewish skull caps, or a nuns outfit I’m gonna.

For an Aussie summer the abaya is awesome and you can get them in different colours now. Woots.

"I have Middle Eastern neighbours who happen to be Catholic and back in the Middle East their family and village for generations has been Catholic. They wear the burqa, big bloody fat hairy deal it isn’t."

Are you confusing burqa and hijab, Ms Jewel? The burqa is the voluminous all-encompassing mobile marquee tent thing, with either a tiny eye-slit, or a gauze section to "see" out of, so beloved of the Taliban and Saudis. Hijab is merely the headscarf. As for your neighbours, have you stopped to consider that those Catholics wear (presumably, headscarves, not burqa) because they have spent generations living alongside Muslims? Where for a female to go out in public without a headscarf automatically (in the minds of Muslims) labels them as Christians, kufaars (infidels) generally, or prostitutes, liable to be raped, abducted and forcibly married and converted to Islam, or even killed. Hijab is worn by Middle Eastern non-Muslim women for protection!

You post shows an amazing lack of knowledge and insight, I'm afraid.

Re the education of women and their employment in countries in the Middle east. Prior to the invasion of Iraq, women went to University, and unlike here, were paid while they attended. (Read Baghdad Burning on line - Iraqi woman's blog - starts prior to the invasion, until she and her family had to leave due to danger).The punishment for rape in Iraq was execution - this was changed by the US, via Paul Bremmer. Women wore western clothes, as they did in Afghanistan at one stage - in between when the Russians left and the Taliban/war lords etc took over. It's the radical fundamentalists who brought in the oppressive dictates. There are many men in Afghanistan who don't violate women and girls - sadly, they're targets for torture and execution too!

You don't bring about democracy by dictating via the Law. all you'd do is turn those women who wear the burqa into criminals, and they'd be even more isolated - wouldn't go to school, Uni, TAFE or work etc, and so wouldn't have contact with any support networks - that would defeat the purpose. You can rest assured, that neither Senator bernadino or Fred Nile would stay in contact with them, or even give them a thought. they have ulterior motives, based on their own brand of extreme fundamentalist christianity! They're just as bad, and would be worse if given the chance!

In the West, we could do more for women by examing the use and abuse of sexist behaviour re women and kids in advertising. How women are still encouraged to starve themselves, even though their employers were supposed to be taking a more responsible position. Displaying women as sex objects is more dangerous than being completely covered up. We should also take more notice of the violence in DVD's, TV/Video games-graphic violence of women etc. we're far from being entitled to take the high moral ground! We have very grubby hands indeed, and have much to do!

Yes indeed Liz,

" .... we're far from being entitled to take the high moral ground! We have very grubby hands indeed, and have much to do!"

There's no 'high moral ground' at the moment in Afghanistan: there's only 'low', and 'much lower'.

So we come back to it: do we abandon Afghanistan to the Taliban ? Yes ? No ?

In many ways, burqa and religion are separate issues: the various head-dresses required of women to demonstrate their modesty and submission to men and to the families they marry into are historical and social features, more to do with particular societies than with Islam, although Islamists are, I'm sure, exploiting the holy word etc. to keep women in their place, and using dress codes to do it, just as the Taliban use beard codes with the men.

So yes, to keep women marked off in conservative societies ['conservative' - there's a euphemism for you], to demonstrate that they are walking the straight and narrow, they must wear coverings of various sorts. They may even assert their 'right' to wear such covering in order to show how modest and reliably subservient they are. But of course, ultimately, it would be liberating if they could wear whatever they damn-well liked, wherever they liked. But their societies, their social relations, are not up to that yet, it seems.

As for the rest of us, it's not really our business: some things are not about us.

Joe

Abaya – the whole deal, black long sleeved flowing dress with head gear Viking (the person - I aint wearing horns). Children watch their mother’s feet and identify them by their shoes. I’m blonde, I had to cover everything (for protection from dirty looks).

The teens would pass each other sneaky notes in public since the boys and girls couldn’t be seen talking.

I learnt in the Middle East that Middle Eastern men and also their neighbours the Mediterranean men have similar attitudes to women, no matter the religion.

Do you know many Muslims? Lived with many? They really get all tarred with the same brush. Stopped and talked to Mutawa? Well one, once – he must have been particularly progressive eh. Custom, culture and religion my little friend… a mix not easily understood. And many superstitions also which I guess is maybe under the heading of culture.

But we judge them quickly enough without the understanding. They are different races from different countries. A Muslim in one country judging one from another also forgets this stuff.

Liz is making sense to me, don’t dictate to others and try and understand what it will do to many of the women if ordered to removed their burqa or their hijab. Some of them see the burqa as removing certain obstacles and making all women equal to each other. Those ones usually have amazing shoe collections.

Liz45

Your arguments continue to be lopsided and one eyed. Your opponent appears to be fictitious - in your own head which is why it is so hard to engage with what you say - given your reluctance to truly engage in the discussion.

Who in this forum is advocating turning women who wear the burqua into criminals or even presenting strong arguments for banning or discouraging them from wearing it?

Yes many of us hate the thing, would not wear it and do not like that others feel the need to wear it, HOWEVER, as I recall the discussion had very sensibly turned to a level of agreement that it's use should be banned not on religious grounds and only in specific circumstances where public or individual safety is at risk. This approach does not victimise nor does it criminalise the wearer.

So please tell me, do you take issue with such a position?