Vanna: I've already posted a link to a resource page that will enable you to find an MRA, or Menz site - but I think you already know where to find them.

The link you posted to the female writer - Did you approve of her essay on Steve Irwin?

Robert: - your recent response demonstrates the reason why honest dialogue is impossible at this stage.

<"You might consider who did most of the raising of children. Who instilled values into children at an impressionable age which set the tone for later expectations.">

That would be something like the women in Afghanistan or elsewhere who raise boys to be proud suicide bombers or who assist in honour killings of their daughters? You've have heard the term, "party to their own oppression." Well there is Western society and a current example in progress.

I expect that in about 30 years we'll have a Taliban/Ivanna equivalent, demanding that feminists from Afghanistan get busy praising Taliban men.

Feminist analysis HAS pointed out exactly how men (everyday men like yourself and Ivanna) ARE exploited in a patriarchy. It's fascinating how you all could direct rage towards and advocate to change the circumstances of - male rape; gaol rape; the way in which boys are socialized into war and violence, but how blokes rarely examine how the system promotes their misuse and destruction. There are at last some great millennium blokes who actually understand how men have been used and abused by the patriarchy.

You ignore how men, in service of the patriarchy, have actively excluded women from jobs: with laws against them obtaining education so that they could be doctors and the like; laws against them patenting their inventions and the social devaluation of homemaking and child rearing. Even now, care functions are regarded as second rate. That's why feminism advocated/advocates for education and skilling of women beyond caring roles - so that they can participate in the economy. Unless they have financial independence, they need to rely on the whimsical benevolence of people who do have an economic share.

"That would be something like the women in Afghanistan or elsewhere who raise boys to be proud suicide bombers or who assist in honour killings of their daughters"

And you have not seen evidence of that or similar I suppose?

"You've have heard the term, "party to their own oppression.", I've heard it but there is a point where decisions about who's doing the oppression become somewhat moot.

It's a self serving farce to decide to blame men while ignoring so much else that is part of history including the significant socialisation that men have been subjected to regarding their role being the provider and protector for wife and children.

"I expect that in about 30 years we'll have a Taliban/Ivanna equivalent, demanding that feminists from Afghanistan get busy praising Taliban men. "

I've not seen vanna demanding that feminists praise murderous bullies, I have seen him point out how overwhelmingly negative feminist comment about men is and make the valid point that if the analyis was in any way fair there would be plenty of good things to say about men.

In your world we may mostly be the equivalent of slave owners or taliban but that does not make it so.

"Feminist analysis HAS pointed out exactly how men (everyday men like yourself and Ivanna) ARE exploited in a patriarchy." - and of course we can expect it to be so much better in a matriarchy.

R0bert

Robert: <"It's a lot like complaining about how the Menz sites are negative about feminists (and in some cases women in general) while being Ok with how overwhelmingly negative much feminist material is about men and masculinity.">

No, not at all comparable Robert.

In MOST cases the menz sites are negative about women in general and feminism specifically. Some Menz sites express glee or determined indifference to female children being raped and killed, along with comments that women should be married to older men and breeding in early teenage years; that rape is a non event ... and there are few or no dissenting voices. Sounds pretty taliban-ish to me.

There is no equivalent whatsoever on any femmo sites.

Feminist material is not negative, much less "overwhelmingly" about men and masculinity. It analyzes the impact of a patriarchal system (which exploits you, but you all are so apparently rewarded in it that you just can't get your brain outside it enough to see what the negative costs are <- and that's where some individuals are likely to attract criticism). There is more than one type of masculinity - but it's up to you blokes to choose how you are going to express your it.

Some men have been hurt in divorce. It's horrible and there are horrible women about. I get that; I agree. However, that is not oppression that affects the majority of men. No men are systematically excluded by law or otherwise from education, earning, from moving freely about, from getting finance; buying a house or car; from applying for any job for which they feel reasonably capable and skilled.

Until recently, women who did not conform to expectations were put into mental institutions. There are still middle aged women walking about who were put into institutions like Rozelle and Chelmsford; women who spoke out about their sexual or other abuse designated as mad. These events are not long ago. Males who were similarly abused typically either sat silently with their pain - turning to drugs and alcohol or killed themselves. That's systematic oppression. That's what feminism opposes.

Robert: <"... and of course we can expect it to be so much better in a matriarchy.">

Except that power according to sex is not the goal is it; so we are unlikely to find out. Holding back half a population (either sex) is not going to take any society very far.

We need a different criterion for according power to people and abiding by their decisions. Currently it's people with massive economic power who seem to exert most influence.

Do you think we could select some issue that we can approach neutrally and that we can work on (like gaol rape, for example) to see what ideas we might have in common as solutions?

Pick an issue if you like.

RObert, I believe the feminist (and certainly Pynchme's) points have been that all society, not just women, have suffered through sexual inequality.
I'd like to issue a counter challenge to you and Vanna, since you put so much stock in the utterings of (paid) university academics; find out who -and when- the first female academic was, then find how many male academics before that time had anything good to say about women -aside from their beauty, grace and desirability.
I would suggest yours would be the larger task, although you should have more luck; in that you'll have many centuries more to cherrypick from.
Addressing the the question of what women teach little boys, it would be impossible in thoroughness to exclude religion at this point. Christianity is every bit as much a patriarchal religion as Islam in foundation, and mothers, I would suggest, have taught their children according to the precepts of their -invariably male- ministers.
Who told women this? According to the 'good books', God did, apparently.
You know, the old man with a beard.

Pynche, "Feminist material is not negative, much less "overwhelmingly" about men and masculinity."

Have you considered what quoting a suggestion that all the evidence is against men's humanity as though it was a good thing or comparing the bulk of men to slave owners or taliban say's about your own views on men.

You've previously referenced material claiming that men lie more than women and assorted other negative views on men. I get the impression that you are so immersed in that stuff that you have become somewhat blinded to just how bad it is.

I searched hard to find some material to shut vanna up on his no positive things to say campaign, I'd not expected it to be a difficult task. Admittedly without a good base knowledge of feminist academic writings, access to academic journal's etc but I'm generally fairly good at tracking down stuff. The nature of what I found shocked me, more subtle than what you claim to have seen on some Menz sites but the closest I could come to meeting vanna's challenge was in regard to men who actively support feminism or who act in a "feminine" manner and some of those pieces (by feminists) then went on to discuss the trouble those men had received from women - http://www.thescavenger.net/feminism-a-pop-culture/feminist-men-friend-or-foe-83456.html was an interesting piece.

Right now I'm much more interested in how you can claim that feminist material is not negative about men while seeming to have no problem with our humanity being questioned or comparing us with slave owners or the taliban than I am in diverting the discussion to gaol rape.

R0bert