Pynchme

The dominant influence on the way that rape is discussed in our society is the taboo about blaming the victim. People discover that it is safest to discuss rape in a way that makes the victim look innocent enough, makes him look evil enough and displays an appropriate level of rightous indignation. You insisted on describing rape in a particularly dramatic way. This all means that many people have a mental image of rape where she is screaming dramatically and he is a nutjob who ignores this.

The problem is that people assume that any sex that doesn't resemble this isn't rape, but they are often wrong. A more common scenario is that she is happy enough to be alone with him, have a pash and do a few things that possibly look like foreplay. She either doesn't want to have sex or is indecisive. He thinks "I don't know what this girl is thinking" but doesn't bother to check carefully enough. He fails to consider that it might be rape, because it doesn't look like what he thinks rape looks like.

If we want blokes to be more careful, we need to be careful about how we discuss rape. Lets focus on fixing this problem.

Cornflower, I fully agree ,just where has the subject gone??

Rape, power and academic "feminism" are worthy subjects but surely not in this article of discussion of pure sexuality ?

Cornflower and Co:

We're talking about prison rape and how that can be prevented.

I think both Robert and I acknowledged that the topic could warrant a thread dedicated to it. We're just sizing up the topic I think.

benk: That's right, which is why the terminology in many states was varied to refer to degrees of sexual assault. Those are not unproblematic and vary widely from country to country and state to state. There is still plenty of disagreement on the ways that sex crimes are classified and the terminology that's employed. Many feminists argue that the crime of rape is trivialized by current classifications. I referred to a wide scope of acts to query Robert's idea that rape is more about lust than about power and control.

Cornflower well summed up thanks.

Severin that's twice in this thread that you have attacked me based on Pynchme's unsubtle misrepresentations (or reversals) of what I've said. I'm sorry to hear about your experience but because it appears to have been about power in your situation does not make it so in all cases.

I struggle to believe that you are stupid enough to not be able to tell the difference between suggesting that rape is not always about power and a claim that it's never about power nor do I think that you are stupid enough to not be able to tell the difference between disagreeing with the position some feminists take and thinking that all feminists think the same. I have to assume that it's deliberate on your part and that saddens me.

Pynchme from your choice to attack me personally for suggesting that the over representation of the power issue distorts our understanding of the issue it's clear that you don't want an honest discussion on the topic. I've contributed openly and honestly in my comments.

Benk whilst I have the impression that some rape cases may be based on a lack of clarity at the time, a change of mind later etc I've not seen any evidence that those cases form a big percentage of rape cases brought before the courts.

R0bert

Robert: <" ... based on Pynchme's unsubtle misrepresentations (or reversals) of what I've said.">

What reversals and misrepresentations?

In case you choose to respond btw, my last post in response to yours was:

<"Just a passing thought - how did blokes (who need "visual aids") manage before Hugh Hefner and Larry Flynt and for that matter, the printing press ?

Anyway - if we follow the thesis that rape occurs because of unsatisfied sexual lust for the other person and pornography use can contribute to lowering prison rape, then the appropriate pornography to dispense to incarcerated people would be homosexual pornography wouldn't it ?">

As always I'm interested in your opinion.

R0bert

I do have a mind of my own. I was responding to what you wrote in your post, which frankly is a worse indictment on men as unable to control their emotions, than being about power:

>>>> I think that discussion of rape has been overly dominated by a feminist insistence that it's mostly about power which looks to me to be based more on an agenda than honest research. By making it about just power we may be missing some simple measures which could reduce contributing factors. <<<<

While your comment was not on topic, it required response. Apologies to CF and Kartiya Jim.

Most men do not rape. I am sure R0bert, that you have never ever forced yourself on anyone. However, your statement above sounds very like the type of propaganda spewed out by pro-male groups. It is not helpful to blame women for male sexual urges. How we dress, what we wear, do, who we go out and where and so on.

I feel lust, I do not blame the person who evokes that response in me. Nor do I expect a man to blame me for his fantasies - even though he may have pictured me. I really don't want to know and wish I didn't in some cases.

Think about forcing yourself on someone against their consent, whether or not your reach orgasm, it is not about lust. Often rapists do not orgasm. It is the possession of that body whether it is a boy or girl, man or woman it is not about sex.

Sex is something that is shared. Not taken. Taking is about power.