Severin, you are reading things into my posts that are just not there.

"It is not helpful to blame women for male sexual urges. How we dress, what we wear, do, who we go out and where and so on."

I did not suggest that in any way shape or form. Read what I said again and tell me where you think I've said that (or where in my posting history I've shown an inclination to that belief). It's never Ok to take by force or deceit, it's not the fault of the victim.

My comments re the overstatement of the power issue are in a different direction.

People take other things because they want them and they have little or no regard for the rights of the person they take them from. It might be argued that power is a factor but if someone steals your purse is it all about power or is it because they want the contents and don't care that it's not theirs to take?

I'd agree that rape is sometimes, possibly often driven by power but the way I've seen the issue canvassed by some makes it seem as though power is the only factor. I think that the contributing factors are more varied.

Pynche, http://www.flipkart.com/stacked-decks-rotenberg-collection-art-book-1594741549 ( safe to open)

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/vintage-nude-women-erotica.htm (may excite some, bother others)

I don't think gay porn would help most (but could be relevant to those who identify as homosexual). I get the impression that a lot of prison rape is not homosexual in preference but convenience (in the same way that a lot of child abuse is not necessarily homosexual eg male predators get easier access to boys).

I'm not sure how credible it is but the write up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_sexuality has some interesting points (and I know it emphasises the power issue). I've seen similar elsewhere and the general view seems to be that a lot of those will revert to hetrosexual orientation away from prison.

When you say "What women prefer seems irrelevant to a discussion" just which women are you referring to?

R0bert

R0bert

I am aware that you did not state that "It is not helpful to blame women for male sexual urges. How we dress, what we wear, do, who we go out and where and so on." I was extrapolating from your position that rape is less often about power and control and more about lust. Please follow a train of reasoning - I am as far from "stupid" are you are from being a female.

I have never used personal invective like that on you, no matter how much I have ever disagreed with you. Nor do I follow whatever Pynchme claim's - I make my own mind up about that as well. I have had near rape experiences and I have been raped - I speak from experience as well as I speak from my intellectual abilities.

And I do disagree with you.

Greed and stealing from others for personal gain are always about power, who has and who wants it. Disregard for the rights of others be it their possessions or their bodies is about power. We can all lust, the majority of us know that mugging someone for their money is wrong just as violating the body of another person is objectionable. A poor person may steal out of desperation - I can understand that. However there is no equivalent lack to justify rape. There is always masturbation or accessing prostitutes - there has to be a deeper motivating factor for rape to occur that goes far beyond lust.

You are pursuing a troubling path by claiming that rape is about desire without its catalyst: control/power and to that I add hate.

Robert: <"When you say "What women prefer seems irrelevant to a discussion" just which women are you referring to?">

Your comment to which I replied was that men need visual aids but that it's probably different for women. I replied that it doesn't matter what women prefer because we're talking about gaol rape, unless you want to include discussion of incarcerated females in the discussion about prison rape.

I thought we were talking about gaol rape for males; just say if you want to cover the whole shebang.

Robert re: erotic cards and such pre Hefner and Flynt.

Of course I knew about those sorts of pics. How could anyone who saw Calamity Jane not recall, "... your old cigareet pitcha." "... looks like a fat, frilled up side of beef." (or words to that effect).

- but apart from those having limited distribution compared to Hefner and Flynt; seriously - is the 'need' for "visual aids" a modern cultural phenomenon? - Is it really a 'need' or have users merely succumbed to intense marketing?

- Fair dinkum - pre-printing press, and even earlier - what did blokes use?

Does all art down through time, from cave paintings to Boticelli, have some more nefarious and less elegant purpose than historians, anthropologists and the like have accorded it?