If women want to stop this type of sexual harassment, there is only one course of action. Never, ever...ever reward this behaviour with sex. At the moment, this behaviour is unacceptable from unattractive men, but the exact same behaviour seems to be OK if the guy is more attractive. What is more, the only way for guys to find out if we are attractive enough is to try our luck.

Judging the same behaviour by different moral standards is immoral and unworkable.

This article starts with a valid issue and many thanks to Graham Young for publishing this article. I often disagree with MTR - however, I have no doubt that many will understand her concerns with sexual harassment as she has expressed them here.

Only recently we debated Jason Akermanis' feelings on having openly gay men in the change rooms of sport facilities, many other men identified with him stating how uncomfortable they would feel under the gaze of gays.

Therefore, I am sure these same men who understand being subjected to sexual assessment, will empathise with MTR and the blatant behaviour of some men in the workplace.

Where MTR loses me in her article is the switch to emphasis on working mothers. I am aware that juggling parenthood and work hours is often fraught and precarious. I see separate issues here one being workplace harassment, the other being a flexible work environment. MTR does herself a disservice by switching topics, earning her no credibility among those who may have understood sexual harassment (those who feel as Akermanis does) to a rant on work/family balance.

MTR - can do better:

5/10

When will these women get over themselves? They write this rubbish, then complain when people, including most women, refuse to take them seriously.

If women don't want men to stare at their t*ts, they could start by not wearing poke out bras, & low cut tops.

Oh, of course, that would be infringing on their liberty, to have to take some resposibility for others response, to what they wear.

[Deleted for abuse].

Might not be a bad thing if they knocked the chip off her sholder, as she went to the kitchen.

I'm glad it wasn't just me, Severin.

>>MTR does herself a disservice by switching topics<<

Apart from simply listening sympathetically to a bar-room moan about the boorish behaviour of men in general, what were we asked to learn from the piece?

Ms Tankard Rice accepts that the behaviour is unlawful, to the point of linking to the Sex Discrimination Act of 1984. It isn't entirely clear what more she believes can and should be done about the problem, given that it is already illegal.

"I’m not saying it’s easy to speak out, and often there are repercussions for doing so. But when women don’t object, it just means men continue to get away with “staring at your tits” and even admitting to it openly. Is wanting to get ahead worth putting up with this?"

That is a very good question, of course, but one that may only be answered at an individual level.

I suppose one parallel would be extortion. Threatening to burn down a shop if you fail to pay protection money, or tell the police about it, is illegal. But what exactly would any of us do, if someone actually walked in and offered "protection"?

You and I may well ask, as Ms Tankard Rice does, "Is it worth putting up with this?", but only the individual can make that very tricky decision.

And it is also all very well for us to agree, wholeheartedly, with her assessment of the solution...

>>If sexual harassment and objectification of female employees is going to stop, women need to take up their lawful rights and speak out. And they need to be supported, not penalised for doing so<<

... but then, we are not the ones who have to stand by and watch their shop burn down.

Profuse apologies: Ms Tankard Reist, of course, not Tankard Rice...

Thanks for your understanding, Pericles.

Any type of workplace harassment, be it sexual or other is, as you have pointed out, illegal. And like bullying, very difficult to prove. MTR continues to alienate both women and men with her narrow perspective on workplace issues. Fact is most heterosexual males look at "tits" and most do it discreetly; they're only human. What this has to do with single working mothers, I'm not sure. I do know that bullying causes stress on any worker, irrespective of their marital status and whether or not they have children.

This morning a man was shot outside a bank in a suspected hold up. This behaviour is both inappropriate and unacceptable.

Are there laws against it and are they enforced? The answer is yes to both. However it still occurs.

The question is whether it is an isolated incident or if the world is falling down around us. (hopefully the former)

With an increasing number of relationships starting in the work place there will always be some sexual interaction, hopefully most of it appropriate. There will always be those idiots that push the limits even if they introduced hanging as a deterrent.

MTR's penchant for taking isolated anecdotal situations and expanding to generalities is not very helpful.

The real question is whether behaviour like this occurs too frequently and whether the protective laws are balanced. None of this has been addressed here.

MTR,
Maybe in your next life you can come back as a man and "have it all".
Meanwhile, cover up your t*tties and get on with your job, such as it is-
complaining or victimology or something like that?
Or you could try the truly liberating experience of wearing a burqa.

When women actually mean yes or no when they say yes or no then we'll get somewhere. If one bloke can look with impunity but another is offending then surely that's discrimination. Why not hang a sign over the cleavage reading it's ok for you to stare but not for you !
Whatever happened to telling a bloke off when he is not welcome ? Have women lost the basics of body language altogether ? How can a bloke tell what's going on when there's no sign ?
Don't want attention ? Don't advertise ! Simple !
Anyhow, I'm glad I'm past that stage.

It has always confused me that women would actually want to do what high flying men do.
I would much rather stay at home with the babies than go off and backstab, arselick, sell out, fight, conform, drink, work 70 hour weeks, wear a suit, commute, cheat, bully, submit, lie, exploit, philander etc etc etc that goes along with the greed and testosterone driven world of power and money. You sold your soul for power and money the same as the blokes did. You cant really complain.
Well feminists you got your wish(sort of) but I think you were wishing for the wrong thing.

One day at work, an attractive female colleague told me about a t-shirt a bloke was wearing, it said "could you please tell your tits to stop staring at my eyes."

She thought the t-shirt was rather good.

Me, knowning the mine field that sexual harasement laws have created, sat rather dumbly not game enough to say anything.

As a red blooded heterosexual male, I like looking at tits and would play with more of them, if I was allowed.

On the other hand many of my females colleagues will sit down and openly discuss all the nasty things men do to women, expecially if there was a recent news item.

It got to the stage that I'd get up and leave the room, when they started.

There are much more stuble ways to create a hostile atmosphere, then just referring to tits.

Shadow Minister, "MTR's penchant for taking isolated anecdotal situations and expanding to generalities is not very helpful.

The real question is whether behaviour like this occurs too frequently and whether the protective laws are balanced. None of this has been addressed here."

Well said, however such laws need a sunset clause as do the kangaroo courts that administer them eg HREOC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunset_provision

I suppose we could always go back to those awful 50s values of respecting women..and dressing modestly...

or.. even further back to the Biblical principles of:

3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. (1Peter 3:3)

and then...

Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity. 1 Tim 5:2

Or.. we could just accept that the Islamic view

//Maulana Abul A'La Maududi has made a fine psychological distinction, however, between women looking at men and men looking at women. The man, he says, "...is by nature aggressive. If a thing appeals to him, he is urged from within to acquire it. On the other hand, the woman's nature is one of inhibition and escape.//

Yeahhh..let's play chasey :)

Methinks we need a good framework of values which are understood by all and reinforced by faith, education, socialisation and law.
At the moment, we seem to have conflicting poles of women who want the freedom to 'dress as they please' but 'not wanting to be sex objects' errrr... *confused look*

Much as I'd like it to... honey..it ain't gonna work.

Or as the feminists used to say at Murdoch University in the '80's:
"A woman should be free to walk naked past a building site and not be whistled or stared at."
It seems that their grip on reality is no firmer now than it was then.

Poor dear girlie's still can't work out, what they want, or don't want?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172861

benk, yes, they dress to impress in the hope of getting Brad Pitt to stare at their tits, but if you, i or anybody else does, there is a problem. Wear a burqa.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172865

severin, speaking as a man who has had, both gays & unattractive women perving on him. Why can't women just get over it like i do.

Either way it is clearly complimentary, or a massage of your ego. If you are not interested, just say thank you for the compliment but i am already in a relationship, straight, etc.

I am also with you on the working parent's thing. Why can't career women support a full time stay at home house husband? Men are naturally better at parenting than women anyway.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172873

Hasbeen, agreed mate.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172876

Pericles, its a little more complicated than that. Women & all Loony, Lefties have been spinning, http://www.whirlingdervishes.org/ so long they are confused about everything. "The Frankfurt School" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236# has them all without a vision of anything, other than what they are against, which is everything, wholesome & normal.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172894

shadow minister, a woman was also recently let off, for a cold blooded, premeditated murder.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172900

proxy, spot on mate.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172922

individual, now you are really getting to the heart of the matter. Many women want to have the "PC Thought Police" world when it suits them & not when it doesn't.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1064917/transsexual-put-kids-in-cages-fed-them-dog-food

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/1064641/hiv-acrobats-girlfriend-will-post-bail

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1063221/australian-woman-held-in-yemen

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1062790/model-arrested-for-letting-teenage-boys-grope-her

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/01/2914561.htm

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/1059536/woman-pleads-guilty-to-sex-with-son-9

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/1050521/tasmanian-mum-pleads-guilty-to-prostituting-her-child

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/1046469/female-sailor-groped-male-crewmates

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1040884/uk-woman-banned-from-drinking

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1031030/lesbian-newlywed-convicted-of-assault

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/1020011/female-cop-propositioned-four-colleagues

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1019751/ex-bikini-model-fire-bombed-lovers-van

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1016090/wife-charged-with-assaulting-us-wrestler

mikk, fancy yourself as toyboy to a female Banking CEO on $10 million PA? I could force myself to do it, any takers?

I'm staring at your messed up misogynist troll tribe drivel: why online sexual harassment continues...

So troll tribe I'm trying to imagine you all in the flesh, sitting at your separate computers, sweating with venom and lulz, gulping beer perhaps, convinced that what you write has the slightest shred of originality or intelligence. Thanks for proving (again, and again) how revolting and just plane stupid misogyny is.

lisbeth salander,
12yo Scotch actually.

Well its all good news girls. Every day you're getting older,
soon the wrinkles will set in, the boobs will sag and males won't
bother you anymore. So you won't need to spend all that money on
botox after all, as so many do now.

hey trolls, here is a song I would like to dedicate to you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tSZLdSCB_o

I am not a fan of this article either. We start off with a story about workplace sexual harassment and then bang on about mother's in the workplace.

In any case, I can't see why all the usual anti-feminists are raving about women covering up their chests in order to stop men staring at them.

Exactly what garments would you have us wear to stop some men staring at our chests guys?

I have never worn low cut or chest hugging tops in my life- due to the unfortunate generous sizing of my chest- but yet I have certainly had my share of comments and stares all of my adult life.

What would you guys have me do then? Should I wear a box or a shapeless sack, or a burqa perhaps?

I usually handle any unwelcome come-ons with a bit of humour, and turn it back on them. Complaining that women yell 'harassment' for some guys but not others is simply because some harass and some don't, it is not rocket science really.

People who sexually harass others are bullies.
They are not simply the usual male (or female)who are appreciating the attributes of the opposite sex without making it too leeringly obvious.

It is no wonder that voters are showing frustration with government. Taxes are regularly ramped up for essentials like vehicle registration and land taxes (increased 30% in Qld last year), while at the same time the bucket of revenue leaks like a colander for politically correct commissions and their bumpf carried over from the Seventies and Eighties:

http://www.adcq.qld.gov.au/pubs/sexharr.html

It is all more important than doctors, nurses and hospital beds apparently.

"People who sexually harass others are bullies."

But the point some commentators are making here is that two people can act in identical ways but -- because you find one of them attractive and the other unattractive -- one can end up accused of sexual harassment while the other is regarded as a valued friend and admirer. And from any perspective it is simply unfair to discriminate against people on the basis of how they look. So the next time you are tempted to accuse someone of harassment, ask whether you are reacting to the behaviour or to the person.

There is also a strong asymmetry in how men and women typically find sex partners. Women sit back and wait; men have to make the running. Men who sit back and wait for sex get old without it. That's not fair either. But that's why rules against sexual harassment are no burden for most women, since they don't do it anyway: the burden falls squarely on men. Is that fair?

When biology has embedded deep-seated differences between two sexes it may be silly and futile to try and pretend they don't exist.

lisbeth salander demonstrates absolutely prefectly, that anyone who has a different point of view or disagrees with a feminist must be a troll and guilty of being mysognistitic.

sometimes attempts at humour are in bad taste, or people have really bad manners.

Now if I recall correctly 'sexual harassement' is behaviour that is unwelcomed and repeated.

One off incidence do not qualify under the definition, that is unless the law has been changed.

Then I suppose that if a male, who the woman in the story found to be attractive, then comments about her 'tits' would not be unwelcomed.

Suzeonline correctly points out the convolution of the article, in that is started about a one off comment about tits and then it switches to about mothers in the workplace.

Such technique on the part of writers is used to hook the readers emotional response, to over ride the logical and critical thinking parts of the brain.

A one off comment offensive comment maybe bad manners, but the commentator will not know that until the comment is made. He/she will only know when the person who is commented about reacts. He/she may or may not be offended.

Before we can debate this issue we need to clarify some terminology:
Misogynist – a man who doesn’t like to stare at women’s breasts
(sometimes colloquially referred to as “gay”).
Microgynist – a man who likes to stare at small breasts.
Mesogynist – a man who likes to stare at medium-size breasts.
Megalogynist – a man who likes to stare at large breasts.
Olagynist – a man who likes to stare at all women’s breasts
(by far the most common type).

Feminist stereotyper – a woman who assumes that all micro/meso/megalo/olagynists drink beer when all they really want to do is to suck from some jugs.

This wasn't a great article, but Reist is quite correct that the kind of sexual harassment experienced by "Rebecca Smith" is completely unacceptable in any workplace.

I worked and studied for decades in a university that abounded with any number of attractive and intelligent women. Strangely, I never found it necessary to ogle at anybody's boobs, although there were always plenty to look at and I'm a great afficionado of the female breast. Like I've said elsewhere at OLO on this topic, it all depends on how you look ;)

Despite the bleating of some of the blokes here, it's eminently possible to have professional relationships and even friendships (shock! horror!) with attractive women, without necessarily wanting to root them. Indeed, it's all part of the fun if everybody's mutually respectful and moderately confident in themselves.

Dear Suzonline

that was a wonderful post .

I don't think most blokes stare at a womans breasts when they are covered.. (correct me blokes if I'm wrong here) it's the deeeeep cleavage which tends to attract attention. (note the plunging neckline of some newsreaders ?)

We all know you have breasts..and we love em... but as I mentioned.. we need a moral framework which encourages inner purity rather than outward indulgence. I'ts awfully hard to 'stare' at a well endowed womans yummy bits in Church :) because the moral or values framework goes against that. I'ts much easier outside where the feeling is "Oh.. it's ok here"

The thing which has been catching my attention of recent times is the increasing number of young females wearing absolute tight clingy attire around their butt and legs etc.. like a highly shrunk lycra tracksuit. They reveal every nook and cranny on a girl.. it does not help a bloke to think of 'women' in a healthy way...

So.. teamwork is needed.. moral framework... purity in attitude.. non immodest attire.

Ah, the 'uncovered meat' argument.

<< moral framework... purity in attitude.. non immodest attire. >>

Sounds familiar... has Boazy converted to Islam?

SM makes some valid points as MTR also points out - sexual harassment is illegal. What can we do about it?

Well that is the hard part, making something illegal does not necessarily stop it from happening, it just builds an assumption (or should that be presumption) of respect in the workplace.

We can only hope that most people out of a sense of decency and commonsense agree on that premise, regardless of apeman comments about cleavage etc. And most people do, the workplace is a far less sexually harassed environment than times past. There will always be troglodites who do not take responsibility for their own behaviour as OLO always serves to remind us.

Men do look at breasts at some time, whether they be liberally displayed or hidden under a sweater or blouse. My male friends talk about the allure of mystery under a women's clothes so arguing about cleavage and fleshy bits hanging out is superfluous.

Bottom line is harrassment is unacceptable in the workplace. It is not the first time I have heard about this sort of attitude within the legal profession. And the irony is it is the lawyers that represent complainants in Court.

The response from the usual suspects has not waivered. First to ooooh aaahhh waah wahh about gay footballers in locker rooms but heaven forbid a woman complain about SH.

Good grief. Some people really need to take a hard look at themselves.

I agree Pelican- there are certainly some interesting views on this subject!
JonJ <"But the point some commentators are making here is that two people can act in identical ways but -- because you find one of them attractive and the other unattractive -- one can end up accused of sexual harassment while the other is regarded as a valued friend and admirer."

Jon, sexual harassment involves 'repeated, unwanted attention'.
I would put forward that if a man made a suggestion to a woman and she welcomed the idea, he wouldn't have to repeat the suggestion?

If another man uttered the same suggestion and the woman said 'no thanks', but he wouldn't take no for an answer and kept coming back again and again with the same unwanted suggestion, then he is a problem.
Do you see what I mean?

We are not having a go at so-called 'unattractive men' here at all.
One woman's prince is another woman's frog!

"I would put forward that if a man made a suggestion to a woman and she welcomed the idea, he wouldn't have to repeat the suggestion?"

So sexual banter and flirting in the workplace is a myth, and women just drag the men they want into the nearest broom closet as soon as they get the go-ahead? Life doesn't work that way. For most men finding a sex partner is a long slow process of trial and error which involves a great many dead ends and false starts. If you have any way to tell in advance whether a woman is going to take a particular comment as flattering flirtation or sexual harassment, please let me know: I could use the information.

There have been a few excellent posts, most notably:

Pericles, Shadow Minister, Suzeonline, Pelican, CJ Morgan, all of whom have made the point that persistent unwanted behaviour from one person to another is harassment and illegal, which was the primary topic of MTR's article.

I note others apparently are arguing for freedom to harass their female colleagues as much as they get off on trolling these pages. Else why the detailed discussion about women's dress and appearance?

I have made all the points I wished to make at the beginning of this thread:

1. MTR could've written a more comprehensive article on harassment in the workplace - it is not just male to female, although that is the majority, but also male to male, female to female and so on.

2. Interestingly (or perhaps appallingly) it is the same posters who consistently denigrate females across the length and breadth of OLO who also deny the problem that is workplace bullying. Once again they protest too much.

Sadly, Jon J, I doubt it is information that would help you.

>>If you have any way to tell in advance whether a woman is going to take a particular comment as flattering flirtation or sexual harassment, please let me know: I could use the information.<<

The answer is of course to use common sense, and a level of respect commensurate with the relationship status quo.

But the problem actually lies in the fact that you have to ask the question in the first place.

Lisbeth

The main people who troll on the internet, are those who dismiss the opinions of others as trolling without making any effort to engage with their ideas.

Others

It may well be true that the legal definition of sexual harassment emphasises its repetitive aspect. However, boundaries about sexual harassment are enforced more by social pressure than by laws. My point is that in everyday life, many women routinely complain about one advance from some men, as though the advance is the problem, when the particular man is the problem. I'm happy to discuss the social conventions that serve to regulate society, but lets be honest about how they work and more importantly, lets have the same boundaries for everyone.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172931

JamesH, good point, actually an old friend, found out his wife was telling everybody, like her female friends, little sister, etc. That he was a bastard, loser, etc. Apparently the only reason they lived a comfortable lifestyle was because she worked full time.

Nothing to do with him being the most successful Real Estate Salesman in the entire country & earning a small fortune every week. Must not have been too keen on competition, i suppose.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172937

Cornflower, Very good. Between 1945 & 1965 all of our essential government services like schools, hospitals, roads, water, etc, were close to, dare i use the weasel words, "World's Best Practice" now all of the states, territories are crying poor, muttering darkly about how to afford "Infrastructure", for our growing population?

How fast was our population growing then? Oh yes families of 1 to 3 were quite rare, families of 6 to 12 were quite normal & there was a tsunami of immigration from Britain & Europe as well?

Maybe dozens of the things governments do now are not really so essential after all?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172940

ALGOREisRICH, Excellent work but i don't think any of the "Sistas in Da Hood" will answer any of it, too factual for them, & what happens when we look down the list, at all the comments after yours. Not 1 single reply or reasonable debate of any point you raised?

BTW, did you catch my earlier post on another thread?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10518#172862

If you or any of the other AFL members want a really good laugh try this one.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10383#170422

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172943

Proxy, Amen brother. They still have not worked out yet that Fe"Man"Nazism was/is in fact misogynist.

http://www.themonthly.com.au/monthly-essays-louis-nowra-exclusive-germaine-greer-and-female-eunuch-2309

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172960

lisbeth salander, poor dear girl, there, there, now.

They disagree with the Dogma, i was brainwashed with, so they must be hateful/filled trolls. I note that many of us have written lengthy, carefully thought out opinion's & you are in fact the one with short, sarcastic remarks, devoid of any debate, intelligent or otherwise.

Pots & Kettles, or as i like to call them "old wives tales.

What seems to be lacking from what has once again become a polarised debate is that it's not one size fit's all.

The scenario's which come to mind are
1/ Those who lack any form of personal standards or respect and stare (conspicuously) and or make inappropriate comments regardless of the choices women make.
2/ Women who perhaps have been more generously endowed than others. They may get so many stares that they have become sensitive about the issue. At the same time it's hard to downplay their breasts with clothing etc.
3/ Women who wear clothing in a workplace or similar environment which emphasises their breasts (extra tight, plunging neckline etc) and who enjoy the response.
4/ Women who wear clothing in a workplace or similar environment which emphasizes their breasts (extra tight, plunging neckline etc) and who don't enjoy the response.
5/ Women who choose (for whatever reason) to work in a workplace where they are required to emphasise their bodies (Hooters etc)
6/ Men who will try to be discrete in all of the above situations but sometimes are more obvious than they might choose to be.

I suspect that "the usual suspects" are mostly talking about the women in group 4 and considering themselves to be part of group 6 and others are talking about group's 1 and 2 and considering "the usual suspect" to be part of group 1.

R0bert

Robert

We all understand that different people have different ideas. However, occasionally society sets limits on acceptable behaviour. For example, women shouldn't have to put up with this type of harassment. If we are going to have social conventions, governing acceptable behaviour, the rules need to be simple and applied consistently.

Several people have suggested that men should leave the poor girl alone if she rejects the first approach. While this seems fair, we all know so many men who have broken this rule and got the girl that we should be stunned that any men follow this rule. Simone Warne snubbed Shane several times, before agreeing to a first date. If women want this rule to be followed, they must never. ever reward this type of persistence and encourage others to do the same.

This "choice" model of feminism may be user-friendly, but some choices can only be seen as letting the team down.

[Deleted fo abuse and poster suspended]

...What have these Whingers actually done to stop the Prevalence of PORN in this COUNTRY which Programmes MALE,s to be PERVERTs
..and Paedophiles...Multi Billion Dollar Revenue Industry for the Gov't..and have any Psych. Students done their Doctoral Thesis's on what it is doing to the Society and Peoples Personal Relationships because of this GARBAGE..
No.. Because most of the Politicians and Media Controllers are Males and are Probably all into it while their wives are busy with their Feminist Misinformation Ideology Meetings and Mis-Understandings..
One technique I have personally used is to Go into a News Agency or Book-Shop which sells it and OPEN UP all the Pages to the MOST GROTESQUE PORN PHOTOS then take the worst one to the cash register where the Business Owner is Serving ALL the Customers & ask him what he thinks of it or if he agrees with the DISTRIBUTION of it in the Community and ask him if the NUDE MODEL is his daughter or any one he knows & is that the Reason He is Promoting it..or how does his conscience feel about his Daughter doing this sort of Modelling.
DEVORAH

Devorah ! Your sexist approach to Porn is very sick! Do yourself a favor and go have a look at what your sisters are up to on the feminist porn sight. Most of us men have nothing on these twisted bitches! I’ll give you a strong tip there! And there are more female pedophiles out there then males ! only they hide under the apron of motherhood! You bigoted bitch! Feminist idiot! Sex is a natural act and there is nothing dirty about it at all, except in your dirty mind!

Formersnag,

people like MTR could do a lot of good, if they were prepared to examine and highlight female behaviour that does make a workplace hostile.

Usually this type of behaviour is much more covert and when a male makes an objection, he is told not to be so sensitive or that it is imagined.

Imagine the reception, if a woman was told not to be so senitive.

Maybe we should have separate work places for men and women :0 ;);)

But seriously, I think people like MTR get a big warm feeling of superiority pointing out the failings of some of us males. Some male posters here are just perfect.

http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/38333/20060423-0000/www.kittennews.com/kn_mag/06_jun03mag/warrior_07.html

<Not only did I find them shockingly unproductive, I also found them incredibly sexist. In the office there were several soft-porn postcards and a calendar of naked and near-naked men. And often there would be a sign up with some man-bashing comment or joke. The women would also make anti-male jokes and pepper their conversations with pronouncements on the inadequacies of their menfolk.>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172963

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172966

Proxy & Yabby, excellent.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172973

lisbeth, 21st Century Fox is making a sequel to the Movie, "What Women Want", called "Who Cares?".

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172974

suzeonline, there is nothing unfortunate about, being blessed with a "generous sizing", almost all of the other women are jealous of you. The word generous comes originally from a Spanish word Generoso. Which is used in an extraordinarily, complimentary way towards women in traditional Spanish society. They, like men from an Anglo, Saxon, Celtic background also love, or prefer their women curvy.

Fe"Man"Nazism is misogynist, it was designed to fool you into hating yourself & men as well by Communists who wanted to destroy western democratic culture, they appear to be winning that war on you.

http://www.themonthly.com.au/monthly-essays-louis-nowra-exclusive-germaine-greer-and-female-eunuch-2309

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

suzeonline, When a man is perving or leering at you in a way that is a bit boofy, boorish or rude, it is still a compliment, maybe an unintelligent one, but still a compliment, the Fauxmanistas brainwashed you into hating your own femininity.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172976

Jon J, Nailed it. And the Radical, Extreme, Loony, Left, Lesbian, Fauxmanista Paedophiles will never admit the truth about anything, they literally are devil worshipping, lunatics who are intent upon destroying, the foundations of western democratic culture.

No Australian child will be safe until all of these criminally insane, "Fifth Columnists" have been rounded up by ASIO & sent to "Baxter Rehabilitation Resource".

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172977

JamesH, Got it again. you will love this one about femanist debating techniques.

http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/

What you & JonJ are alluding to is that sexual harassment laws are completely at odds with standard, feminine behaviour to, "Play hard to get".

Either all women must stop being feminine, or "playing hard to get" or the sexual harassment laws must be abolished.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172979

Proxy, i love it, poor lisbeth & Devorah obviously think you must be a total barstard.

Battler
Against
Reactionary
Stereo
Typing
And
Retarded
Dyke's.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10515#172985

C J Morgan, there are times when you sound almost sensible, like that comment, but you are still as usual, completely ignoring everybody else's, reasonable, sensible comments, whenever they differ from your Communist Dogma.

benk, my point was that I suspect that people are talking at cross purposes. Sometimes deliberately because some people love an argument or to try and rally support, at other times because our focus is on a particular aspect of an issue.

I doubt that many here would support the right of coworkers to make sleazy comments about a coworker unless that was clearly acceptable to the coworker (eg the kind of banter that males often throw at each other). Few would accept that a anyones's career prospects in most job's should be dependent on them tolerating sexual harassment or wearing revealing outfits.

At the same time I doubt that many would champion the expectation that someone could wear a particularly revealing outfit and demand that no one will look. Looking discretely (or trying to be discrete) is different to demands to be able to touch, to see other parts that which are not revealed etc.

R0bert

Fomersnag, absolutely love that bit about the shaming language.

I showed a female colleague that article about the single sex workplace and rather than having an interesting discussion about the article, all hell broke loose.

My very strong impression is that there are a number of women, who do not want to be confronted with the truth of their own behaviour.

There was a article, (nolonger in existance), titled something like bitter single female (BSF) and the author(female) refused to play the game about how awful men are.

Usually it would start off with one female dissing men and then the others would join in. Thus esculating emotions and giving these women justification for treating men poorly.

Amy Cooper and Tobi Green both have written about how women are testers.

More than a few years ago feminist made the claim that marriage was a patriarchial creation invented by men to keep women oppressed.

but nobody bothered to explain, why it was men who were mostly the reluctant ones to the idea of getting married.

RObert I expect there is some debate at cross purposes, people coming at it from a different perspective but the bottom line is we are all adults here and we all know what appropriate behaviour is for the workplace.

A women showing a bit of cleavage at work is no different than a man wearing overly tight trousers or going out in lycra on a bike ride. He should be able to do that without being pawed or ogled at in private places by some rapacious female.

No matter what another wears, the responsibility for ones actions is always on ourselves. Pushing the blame for our own bad behaviour onto another because of dress issues is childish and irresponsible.

If I was a man, and a woman was speaking to me wearing a low cut dress I would make a point of not looking so there was no misunderstanding.

One might argue that the top is inappropriate and maybe in some scenarious it is, but that does not absolve other parties from behaving badly. It really is that simple IMO.

pelican the pawing aspect is very clear and simple. There is however a wide spectrum between averting your eye's and ogling that is is not so simple.

Just as it's childish to excuse extreme behavior based on other people clothing choices it's also childish to expect (or require) others to comply with our own personal preferences about what they do with their eye's.

If an unusual amount of cleavage is visible I'll be careful not to let it draw my overt stares but I don't feel compelled to jump through hoops to avoid seeing (or quietly appreciating) that.

A man in tight bike clothes should be able to go for a ride without being pawed but I'd be surprised if he was particularly good looking with a great set of abb's and many women considered it inappropriate to quietly appreciate the view on the basis of principle rather than taste.

We are all responsible for our own choices, the choice to wear revealing clothes does not make the wearer responsible for others physically or verbally assaulting them nor does it give the right to make demands of others choices about what they see and don't see.

R0bert

Pelican

"we are all adults here and we all know what appropriate behaviour is for the workplace."

While I agree that society needs to set boundaries, there are two problems that you are overlooking. One is that the boundaries seem to move, depending on the attractiveness of the man. This makes the rules seem unfair and unworkable. The other problem is that it often seems that men who break the rules have less trouble finding partners. The consequences of this are predictable.

"It really is that simple IMO."
It should be that simple, but we have a way to go.

Two true stories:

1. A female manager behaves flirtatiously towards both her seniors and employees. Many blokes (regardless of age and looks) go silly and do whatever she wants; though they never get sex. One young man one day says that he has no respect for her or for males who are pushovers for manipulative behaviours. He says that the assumption that the penis replaces the male brain is an insult to him and to other men who prefer to think for themselves.

2. Young married woman with a degree working in a predominantly male company - all the managers are male. One who is married starts sexually harassing her - making suggestive comments and sending rude emails. He directs her on a few occasions to his office, where the computer screen has a pornographic picture on it. She has told him a few times to stop; that she has no interest. One day he corners her again. She goes straight to his manager and says she is being sexually harassed and asks that it be stopped.

The senior manager seems annoyed with her; but calls the creep in and sacks him on the spot. Other women in the company thank her for speaking up and tell her that they have been similarly harassed but have been too scared of losing their jobs to make a complaint.

After creep departs; the young woman who made the complaint is excluded by the males (esp managers); overloaded with tasks and complaints about not getting everything done snap snap. One day a manager (and friend of the creep) snarls at her that when she made the formal complaint, she also gave up ANY chance of ever getting ahead in that organization and the men want her out one way or another.

Eventually the atmosphere is so unpleasant and the work pressure so intense that she leaves; no reference. Meanwhile, creep has got another job, with the good references of the manager who took the complaint.

Both types of people make the workplace unpleasant.
Neither reflects well on people of their own sex.

James I hope people read the piece on the link you posted. The writer also said,

"Presumably its okay to make a man feel uncomfortable at work, but not a woman. God, there was even a postcard of a naked man up in the barbers where I have my hair cut! Now, there were two women working there and two men, but all the customers are men. Do we really want to see this? Most men don’t."

- and there you go!

The things he is complaining about are exactly the things feminism opposes.

So if blokes feel uncomfortable that nudie pics of males are up, why is it wrong for women to feel uncomfortable too?

In any case, if we had to bet on it I would bet that women who do things as described in the article are not feminists.

Do you think that women started sharing complaints and criticisms of males just because feminism came into being? No. They were just more covert about it.

Personally I object to treating any one, male or female, in such ways. I don't distribute emails that make fun of either sex, for example, and often speak out and explain why I'd rather the sender didn't share those sorts of jokes with me.

I wonder if many men would do as much when jokes about dumb blondes; chocolate scoffing housewives and whatnot come around.

Benk <" One is that the boundaries seem to move, depending on the attractiveness of the man. This makes the rules seem unfair and unworkable. The other problem is that it often seems that men who break the rules have less trouble finding partners. The consequences of this are predictable."

I don't agree Benk. I have seen many, many unattractive men (unattractive to me anyway!) with women hanging off their arm.

You can't tell me that only attractive men, and those who sexually harass women at work or elsewhere, attract women?

Do you mean just the outwardly attractive women here?

I agree it is is often the sleezy, perfectly presented man who gets the girl in some social occasions, but that sort of man rarely sustains a relationship I have found.

Open your eyes and check it out for yourself Benk... there is someone for everyone out there it seems!

Sorry,
Did I say jugs?
I meant tankards!

Suze

" I have seen many, many unattractive men (unattractive to me anyway!) with women hanging off their arm."

So have I. What does that prove?

"You can't tell me that only attractive men, and those who sexually harass women at work or elsewhere, attract women?"

My arguments are that boundaries seem to be enforced inconsistently and those who break the rules seem to attract more women. If these rules really matter, surely we can talk about why they aren't always followed.

"I agree it is is often the sleezy, perfectly presented man who gets the girl in some social occasions, but that sort of man rarely sustains a relationship I have found."

Nor do they want to. They are getting exactly what they want. Why would they change?

Melinda is an extraordinary women who is happy to tell the truth about the derogation of the modern women because of the continuing pornification of our society. Women continue to need activists like Melinda who will speak up on their behalf and not sell them out to the capitalist marketeers who want to reshape our moral sensibilities in line with their perverted bottom line. I and many men within the Australian Mens Movement would applaud her for her courage and determination in the face of overwhelming odds. The tide for sanity is beginning to turn. You are an inspiration. Go girl! Because the truth will always win in the end.

Thank you Warwick for providing me with a moment of zen.