Fomersnag, absolutely love that bit about the shaming language.

I showed a female colleague that article about the single sex workplace and rather than having an interesting discussion about the article, all hell broke loose.

My very strong impression is that there are a number of women, who do not want to be confronted with the truth of their own behaviour.

There was a article, (nolonger in existance), titled something like bitter single female (BSF) and the author(female) refused to play the game about how awful men are.

Usually it would start off with one female dissing men and then the others would join in. Thus esculating emotions and giving these women justification for treating men poorly.

Amy Cooper and Tobi Green both have written about how women are testers.

More than a few years ago feminist made the claim that marriage was a patriarchial creation invented by men to keep women oppressed.

but nobody bothered to explain, why it was men who were mostly the reluctant ones to the idea of getting married.

RObert I expect there is some debate at cross purposes, people coming at it from a different perspective but the bottom line is we are all adults here and we all know what appropriate behaviour is for the workplace.

A women showing a bit of cleavage at work is no different than a man wearing overly tight trousers or going out in lycra on a bike ride. He should be able to do that without being pawed or ogled at in private places by some rapacious female.

No matter what another wears, the responsibility for ones actions is always on ourselves. Pushing the blame for our own bad behaviour onto another because of dress issues is childish and irresponsible.

If I was a man, and a woman was speaking to me wearing a low cut dress I would make a point of not looking so there was no misunderstanding.

One might argue that the top is inappropriate and maybe in some scenarious it is, but that does not absolve other parties from behaving badly. It really is that simple IMO.

pelican the pawing aspect is very clear and simple. There is however a wide spectrum between averting your eye's and ogling that is is not so simple.

Just as it's childish to excuse extreme behavior based on other people clothing choices it's also childish to expect (or require) others to comply with our own personal preferences about what they do with their eye's.

If an unusual amount of cleavage is visible I'll be careful not to let it draw my overt stares but I don't feel compelled to jump through hoops to avoid seeing (or quietly appreciating) that.

A man in tight bike clothes should be able to go for a ride without being pawed but I'd be surprised if he was particularly good looking with a great set of abb's and many women considered it inappropriate to quietly appreciate the view on the basis of principle rather than taste.

We are all responsible for our own choices, the choice to wear revealing clothes does not make the wearer responsible for others physically or verbally assaulting them nor does it give the right to make demands of others choices about what they see and don't see.

R0bert

Pelican

"we are all adults here and we all know what appropriate behaviour is for the workplace."

While I agree that society needs to set boundaries, there are two problems that you are overlooking. One is that the boundaries seem to move, depending on the attractiveness of the man. This makes the rules seem unfair and unworkable. The other problem is that it often seems that men who break the rules have less trouble finding partners. The consequences of this are predictable.

"It really is that simple IMO."
It should be that simple, but we have a way to go.

Two true stories:

1. A female manager behaves flirtatiously towards both her seniors and employees. Many blokes (regardless of age and looks) go silly and do whatever she wants; though they never get sex. One young man one day says that he has no respect for her or for males who are pushovers for manipulative behaviours. He says that the assumption that the penis replaces the male brain is an insult to him and to other men who prefer to think for themselves.

2. Young married woman with a degree working in a predominantly male company - all the managers are male. One who is married starts sexually harassing her - making suggestive comments and sending rude emails. He directs her on a few occasions to his office, where the computer screen has a pornographic picture on it. She has told him a few times to stop; that she has no interest. One day he corners her again. She goes straight to his manager and says she is being sexually harassed and asks that it be stopped.

The senior manager seems annoyed with her; but calls the creep in and sacks him on the spot. Other women in the company thank her for speaking up and tell her that they have been similarly harassed but have been too scared of losing their jobs to make a complaint.

After creep departs; the young woman who made the complaint is excluded by the males (esp managers); overloaded with tasks and complaints about not getting everything done snap snap. One day a manager (and friend of the creep) snarls at her that when she made the formal complaint, she also gave up ANY chance of ever getting ahead in that organization and the men want her out one way or another.

Eventually the atmosphere is so unpleasant and the work pressure so intense that she leaves; no reference. Meanwhile, creep has got another job, with the good references of the manager who took the complaint.

Both types of people make the workplace unpleasant.
Neither reflects well on people of their own sex.

James I hope people read the piece on the link you posted. The writer also said,

"Presumably its okay to make a man feel uncomfortable at work, but not a woman. God, there was even a postcard of a naked man up in the barbers where I have my hair cut! Now, there were two women working there and two men, but all the customers are men. Do we really want to see this? Most men don’t."

- and there you go!

The things he is complaining about are exactly the things feminism opposes.

So if blokes feel uncomfortable that nudie pics of males are up, why is it wrong for women to feel uncomfortable too?

In any case, if we had to bet on it I would bet that women who do things as described in the article are not feminists.

Do you think that women started sharing complaints and criticisms of males just because feminism came into being? No. They were just more covert about it.

Personally I object to treating any one, male or female, in such ways. I don't distribute emails that make fun of either sex, for example, and often speak out and explain why I'd rather the sender didn't share those sorts of jokes with me.

I wonder if many men would do as much when jokes about dumb blondes; chocolate scoffing housewives and whatnot come around.