AJ Philips,

>>there is nothing the West has acquired or achieved through Christianity that it couldn’t have acquired or achieved via secular means<<

Maybe, however, I spoke of “Constantine’s Christendom” not Christianity, whose founder was Jesus (or Paul according to some) not Constantine.

>>regardless of our inability to test the “ifs” of history - we can safely say that any role played by Christianity in the progress of the Western world was simply and accident of history<<

My point was not about what you can “safely say”, but about the non-existence of an example of a civilisation that would have achieved the same levels in philosophy, arts, science and technology, yes, including Enlightenment, bypassing a stage similar to Middle Ages (Christendom), where Christianity was applied - seen with our hindsight - as something like a totalitarian ideology.

At the risk of repeating myself, one cannot reproduce, say, the world of ancient Rome in a “laboratory”, leaving out one historical “ingredient” - Christianity in this case - and see how it would evolve through centuries. Even mental experimentation, quite common in physics, when applied to history, is nothing but speculation.

“Faith in the possibility of science, generated antecedently to the development of modern scientific theory, is an unconscious derivative from medieval theology." (A. N. Whitehead, Science and the Modern World). This is a view contradicting yours, born out of a philosopher’s insight, that some people will share, some will not, without claims to any “safe” knowledge.

Of course, you are entitled to your beliefs about how our civilisation evolved, or could have evolved. So is Whitehead and so am I.

Dan,

>> many genuine Christians want to accept Darwinian evolution. I don’t think that, such as it is, an inherently materialistic philosophy <<

One thing are SCIENTIFIC theories like (neo-)Darwinian evolution, Newton’s or Einstein’s theory of gravitation, the Standard Model of elementary particles, etc, another PHILOSOPHIES, materialistic or not. You cannot claim that any of these scientific theories are inherently philosophies, unless you redefine the terms (natural) science and philosophy.

It is probably true that today a majority of scientists are not “genuine Christians”, the same as it is true that a vast majority of them does not speak Hungarian. This, however, does not imply that there are no specialists subscribing to these theories (not just "wanting to accept them", which is an option available only to non-specialists) who are “genuine Christians” or speak Hungarian.

>> Darwin’s natural selection had no need for God.<<
Of course, neither does any of the scientific theories mentioned above, nor does e.g. the Pythagoras Theorem etc. See also http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10025#161778.

oliver/quote..<<..The..experience..did-allow me/to see..science in action.>>.

yes..you saw..replicatable/science,..
nothing/about..evolution..
except..micro-evolution..what/caused-the..cancer

<<five-year survival-rates...In/science,../..it-is..gauged-as..a probability/of..samples..based on the staging..of/the cancer.>>

probabilities...are/very lucrative..
but only..'prob-able'...

say 50 percent/probability..or 99%..probability...
its a/perfect..egsample..that..science..has-not/got
all..the/requisites,..science..definitivly-needs..to claim..science

egyptians..were doing..brain-surgery..in/the..dark-ages
what..you call science..[i call medicine]..is virtually unchanged..across,..two thousand years...

basicly..cut/out..the cancer
[then let/the body..heal...itself]

radiation..is/a known-mutagene

its likely...if/the cell..gets irradiated..
at the..time of division..a new/mutation...results...
[the probability..of this/timming..
gives you..the/probability..it/will-be
either..neutral...or a new-cancer

but mate..its such..a great..lurk

how many-times..you hear/of those dying..of the/cancer-treatment
leaving their homes..to 'finding..the cure'...

the cure/that never-comes..
but they-get..the cash..anyhow

what..is worse..the..real-cures...dont need..all that/other expenditure..[like testing..radiation..and all/the further testing..

just to/get odd's...of 50 percent..or 90%.....
if they..got science...lets get/beyond..probably

<<I certaintly did/not gain..the impression/..that the-surgeons,..oncologists..or radiologists..were deceitful scientists>>>

mate..there you go/again...
anyone..wearing a..white-lab-coat..isnt..a scientist

[or a green-coat...you met..teqnitions,..not..'doing/science'..
except..by rote..
off/by..charts..done-by..real scientists..
who murded..many'subjects'..getting..the 'right dose'..
to kill..most/of..the cancer..and not..the patient/subject...[each-time]

you saw trained/monkies..specialists...
most..who never studied..much-more/than their..'job'..requires

yes they know..the charts/tables..the machine
but thats..about all..
[CERTAINLY..not evolution..micro..nor..macro]

they likely/never even bothered-to research..other-cures..
they bought..their machine..got their franchise...practice
and do as/they..were told..by their peers...or by the rep

and yes it/works...[one third the time]..[or..50/50?]
and the rest..die..knowing they/met god-heads
by die..none-the less

under severe-medication...for the pain

the raw-numbers..of deaths/..by cancer..
speak/for them-selves

but those who/do survive/..lol..have faith..
because they..didnt know..those who didnt/survive..
were of/..such large numbers

<<They were/all smart-peole..who worked..very-hard..for their patients.>>>

yes/yes..no doudt..

but they/will work..just as hard..
to keep/their income

remember..you think..they/are smart...
and yes..they are..

they been/fooling-us
as much..as/..curing..us
with the..same/teqniques..for near/on 100 years

<<In doing so,..I didn't feel..their techiques/were..deluded,>>

of course not..whitch-doctering works..most of the time...too

its a matter of faith...[placeobo-affect]..
or will..or change of diet..or other..more healthy-regeme

<<though some last/ditch-approaches..were life/threatening..in themselves.>>>

yes and the suppressed...cures..is simple as taking..baking/soda...
or the sound vibration..killing the cancer..in minutes...
or via the light/specrum..killing it gradually...
or the negative..cathode...sucking it out
via electro/plate...in an hour

see..there isnt..the return visits
[its about getting repeat custom]
ie the money...

to give a cure/for pennies..mate
what about all their debt..
or their..PRACTICE...with their placeaebo...affecting..gizmoes

all that repeat/custom..
adoration
all that asset...gifts..from the failures

no simple-cures..and get-on..with your life
mate..that dont suit..their ego..nor their pay-packet

oh..steven...please read..the full..context
the preceeding/suras..talked of cain/able..

it finishes

32..on that account;we ordained[for the children..of israel]..
that if one slew...a person...[unless it/be for murder..or for spreading/mischief..upon the land[insurection/mayhem]..
it would be..as if he slew..a whole people

,and if he saved..a life..
it would be as/if..he saved a whole people..

<<then..although..there came/to them..our messengers..
with clear-signs..yet even/after-that..
many continued..to commit..excesses..on the land

then..33...it speaks of..messenger..[not appostle]..
that terminology..should-have/been a clue..

but it talks of peers/leaders..
leading great insurections
not you...lol

see you/quote,,<<..strive to make/mischief..in the land>>

and what is written...is..those..who

'strive..with might..and main..
for misschief/through-out..the land'>>

IF YOUR GOING TO QUOTE
at least..quote..properly

<<is only this,..
that they
..should be>>>

ie
THEY ALONE...may
not..must-be
ie deserve..to be
but read further...and learn

WHY?

you used..<murdered>..

they wrote..exicuted..

you know/..like they do..in the states
of usa..the biggest war-mongering-machine..coleniser-nation...ever

<<or crucified/..or their hands..and their feet/should be..cut off on opposite sides..>>

yes that..is..certainly barbaric...
but usa exicutes..thousands for less...
and you dont fear-them

but then you added...another-lie..
<<or they should be/imprisoned;>>
thats..not in..the texts

they say exiled

[and as jesus revealed
by our works[choices]..are we revealed

or reviled..

but jesus taught...FEAR NO EVIL
stop your fear steven..
your shaming the messiah

but look at the why/for..

<<this shall be as/a disgrace..for them..in this world,>>

mine-reads..that/

'this...is for their/discrace..in this world'
'and heavey punishment..is theirs..in the here-after'

your/quote<<..and in the hereafter/they shall have a grievous chastisement.>>

yet again...decieves..in its specifics

you also/left-out..

34..
;'EXCEPT/those...who repent...before..they fall..into your power;...
in that case..KNOW GOD IS..oft-forgiving...MOST MERCYFULL..!

35
;..o...you..who believe
do your duty..to god..
seek..the means..of approach..to him..[with clean hands/heart]
and strive...with..might/main..in..HIS CAUSE..that you may all prosper

[remember..god..serves us...ALL]
all of/our lifes....gift's

we give/back to god
by respecting god's..goods..
[life/logic/love/grace/mercy]

we do this..simply by loving-neighbour
teaching/others...via our..good works

serving his creation..
like he serve..all of us..our very lives

anyhow..not much more..to say

except...never presume..any quote/extract..is in context..
you must..allways study..the big-picture

and the big-picture..

re macro-evolution..
is fraud

Dear Dan,

Thanks.

Is the universe older than the 6-10,000 year old earth? If not, to put it simply, how does one explain the billions of years speed of light stuff and the background radiation of the universe which fits in very nicely with Big Bang prections.

Six thousand years ago fits in pretty well with the rise of the first city-states: e.g., Sumer. In Sumer, priesthoods, and, presumably more codifies scriptures arose over the political aspirations of the priests. When god(s) own the land (from the Garden periods), who was to the Administrator/Control? The priests, off course, whom appointed the chiefs.

Will check back in a few days.

Dear Dan,

Goodbye.

Dear George,

We would have quite a different society if Theodosius had not made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, the Muslim forces had not lost at Tours or several other ifs.

We can only speculate, but at least we have material for speculation. There were a number of contingencies in both evolution and religious history that have made our world what it is.

Gould regards evolution as a matter of contingency. If we could roll up the tapestry of history or that of life it is not likely it would repeat. One difference between history and evolution is that is easier to name the 'whatifs' in history. The 'whatifs' in evolution are usually but not always unknown to humans. One contingency in evolution that is generally accepted was the impact of an asteroid that hit the earth about 65 million years ago. This caused the extinction of the dinosaurs and allowed mammals that had originated 180 million years ago to expand into the now vacant niches.

I am working on a novel (probably will not finish it) based on the idea that some of Alexander's soldiers remained in Afghanistan. They married some of the local women and formed a tribe. They now exist with a cover identity as Muslims. With the new situation they feel free to emerge and make public their identity as worshippers of the ancient Greek gods. This religion seizes hold and gathers many converts who are repelled by the Talibanisation of Islam and reject the Christianity of the invaders. It even becomes a mechanism by which the conflict in Kashmir is resolved as Muslims and Hindus turn to the new religion. A number of the neopagans decide they want to return to their ancient homeland in Greece. The Greek Orthodox Church hierarchy is horrified, and conflict results. There are obvious parallels with Zionism.