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The Forum > Article Comments > Religion and science: respecting the differences > Comments

Religion and science: respecting the differences : Comments

By Michael Zimmerman, published 31/5/2010

The teachings of most mainstream religions are consistent with evolution.

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I think we'd all rather hear how Dan thinks his quote of Sagan corresponds with Sagan's views, thereby actually disproving rather than disliking my accusation.

Dan typed: "That's not how Sagan saw things. Would you like to disagree with him on this point?"

Sagan saw things as Ernst Mayr did:
"It can hardly be questioned that most *visible* mutations are deleterious. On the other hand, several lines of evidence indicate that many mutations are for diverse reasons beneficial" (Animal species and Evolution 1966, page 174)

And Jim Watson:
"Rarely, however, changes (mutations) occur in genes to give rise to altered forms most *but not all* of which function less well than the wild-type alleles" (Molecular biology of the Gene 1970, page 26)

compare this with Dan's glossing over of these clear qualifications, as well as those of Sagan.

The point of is that some (regardless of how rare) variations are beneficial, most especially as conditions change.

I don't need these quotes. More than twenty years ago undergrads could opt to re-create the experiments establishing that antibiotic resistance could arise in the descendents of a single colony of bacteria, and then sequence the mutated porins and pullulanases that conferred this resistance.

It is a trivial exercise to demonstrate that *some* mutations can confer selective advantage. Dan *could* go look it up any time, but would rather pretend ignorance, to promote a stunted theology rather than choose a better one.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 12:34:49 AM
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Rusty,
If you want to discuss Sagan, then here we are. Anyone can go back and check out what I said. I posted it on Thursday, 19 August 2010 1:07:52 PM

Discussing the issues is what this forum is for.

If you want to throw mud at my name, then that is a very different matter.
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 1:46:13 AM
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In discussing the possibility of beneficial mutations, you selectively quoted Sagan to create the illusion of support for your view. you used a quote in bad faith, establishing as a matter of record that you are not truthful about the views of others when twisting it suits you.

I regard my tirade as fair comment on your character. What your character *is* is up to you. If you don't like being accused of false witness, don't *do* it, rather than complaining of being caught out.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 7:51:42 AM
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We put call again/to David F’s maxim –

“There is no absurdity
that a thinking person
cannot rationalise.”

rusty/quoting..
<<"the universality/of the..process of/evolution">>

YET...[next]..DONT TALK...
ABOUT...'its'...processs...lol

continue/quote<<..(page-5):.."the great-principle>>>lol<<of biology...that/...lol..as-far..as we know*>>...LOL

<<distinguishes/the bio-logical..>>THEORY/principle...lol
<<from the physical sciences..is evolution..by natural-selection".>>

to WIT...THAT NATURE/DID-IT...!
YET
man..uses...his own..selective..breeding...!
to-wit...UN-NATUR-al...SELECTION...and still claims..'natur-al'...lol

thus YOU..cant/have a..CLAIMED..science-methodoligy
..that USES..nature..as its main.PRINCIPLE..!

*"It is important to distinguish/between.;..

the amount of/information
and..the quality..of that information"*

Regarding/mutations:..<<"Accidentally/useful..mutations>>>

lol..ARE ACCIDENTS..get it?

THEY...<<provide the working material/for..bio-logical..evolution">>>
OF SPECIES...WITHIN their GENUS..via..NATUREal-selecting..back to its WILD-type[+]..genus

we have/a..clue..of the mind-set..of the authors...
from the title..in their/own...words

<<From.."the demon-haunted..world"..page 252:>>>
a/demoic..ATTACK..<<"Under the/guise of>>>..attacking...GOD/based..<"creationism",>>

quote..<<a serious-effort..continues to/be..made..to prevent evolutionary-theory>>>
THEORY...GET_IT?

<<domesticated-organisms.."if artificial-selection..can/make..such major/changes..in so/short..a-time,..What must/natural-selection,../over billions of years,..be/capable..of?>>

thats simple..it balanced...the mainly/BAD...mutations..
within-its genus..RETAINING the wild-type...
from which we SELECTED..those genes..we desired...
[that gave their fruits...VIA..un-natural-selection]

note..wild-cabbage[+]...evolved..cabages/sprouts/brocklie/cauli-flower
cannus[+]..evolved...dogs...cats evolved cats...
blue/barred..rock-dove[+]..evolved pigeons..
grasses[+]..wheat/barly.sorgum..etc

BUT THIS WAS ALL...all-ready...IN THEIR..[+][wild-type]..GENUS/quotant
TO/WIT..no cannus[+]..made catus..
no wild[+]..cabbage..made..huh-mans

no sows ear{+]..made/evolved..out of its inherant/[+]parental...genus



<<Regarding/mutations:...a-series/of..slow-transformations..of one lifeform..into another"..>>

for which..not one/is able-to..be egsemplified...lol..
this is the lie..!

<<"the_secrets-of/evolution are/..deaths-of..enormous-numbers..of lifeforms.../imperfectly adapted..to./their..environment>>lol

IE..THE MANY/BAD..mutations..to wit..by far..most
[even those allready..mutated...will regress],

<<and time/for a long succession..of small mutations>>>..
sucess-ion?...lol...WHAT OF THE VAST/bulk...of bad..mutations[see earlier/quote]

mutagenes..set-back by the..over-welming-numbers..of BAD/mutt-ations..restoring the genomic-mean
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 8:28:21 AM
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rusty..quoting..<<Dan..contends/that..no-mutations..are..beneficial,>>>

is-a..pure/[inpure]..lie..[my..rebuttal/follows]

quote/dan...<<Mutations..(errors/in..copying/the genetic-sequence) are,...on the..whole,..not..creative agents.>>>

as..later/quotes..shall..affirm

dan/continues,,<<If/anything/they-are..quite-degenerate..or destructive.>>

as previous/quotes-of..carl...saygone...admits

dan..<<The..consequences/of..mutation are..indeed obvious.>>then..<<..many are neutral/in the sense-of..causing harmless genetic-‘noise’...Some/bring..disastrous effects...>>

<<Yet..from/what..we observe,..we see..overwhelmingly/that mutations..are/not..creative agents>>..and mostly..they arnt

but in/no-way..can this imply..all...

for rusty..the-boldly/righiously..decieved...anger
must indicate..he is a-feard,,of dan

call again..to David F’s maxim..

<<“There is no/absurdity..that a thinking-person..cannot rationalise.”>>>
and..the first..to attack..usually/has..the weakest-CASE

WE know..evolution/THEORY..can only/rest on its principles..
BECAUSE..ITS VOID..of science rules/methodoligy/science/fact..
to affirm..its theories.../principle

ya cant..replicate...nature/selecting..

into equating..science selecting...
BUT..[repeat..davids..maxim]

rusty/quote..[insulting-language..deleted]..
<<We..*could*..list the..many mutations/that do-not..have any effect..on human health,>>>

and many..that/have no AFFECT..on mans phisiology..TOO
you only..did a few breedings/sequencing's..of BACTERIAL-dna

BE HONEST..all you got..was bacteria
NOTHING..NOT BACTERIA

thus YOU..HAVE NEVER/WITNESSED..NOR SEEN..
bacteria..EVOLVE..oUT-of..bacteria

CORRECT?

<<coding..for the-same..amino/acid..residue 'n all'../...with..little change..in either..the specificity..or activity..of the..protein-product...Such are/the basis/of genetic drift,>>>

of species..FIXED..with-in..their genus/mean

dan/quote..
<<Mutations..(errors in/copying..the genetic sequence)..are,..on the whole,..not creative agents...>>
one can/only..agree

even ol/rusty..NEVER BRED,..ANY-thing..other than
/bacteria...from bacteria...!

[because..natural..and un-natural..
can only..select...FROM..what/is..there..!

dan..<<‘The appearance/of..living-forms..on the earth..
is,..as inexplicable..as if/..foam from the sea/..
washed-up..and assembled itself..into the Parthenon.’>>>

yes...i agree/dan

so does..the assemblage..called biological...
knowledge..that has not RECORDED..any change of genus...ever

even rusty..could/only breed...mutated bacteria

billions..of fruit-flies...have bred..only mutated..FRUIT_FLIES

dans/sagan..quote,
<<"...mutations/occur..at random>>>
GET IT?

<<and are..almost..uniformly harmful>>

<<it is rare...>>..

thus as dan/says..its a..<<..process..genetic-burden,..
it's not..a creative agent>>..

AND..AS NO_ONE..HAS PRESENTED..faulsifyables..
its not/even..a science.

rusty/first-reply..[insults deleted]
<<Mutation..*combined with*..natural-selection>>>
there is a lie...natural/selection...belongs..to the natural/nurture...to wit..god

nat/sell..<<result/in..novel/sequences of DNA,..>>>..
there is another clue...
[HOW MANY CHROMOSONES..BACTERIA GOT..RUSTY?]

how many you got..mate?

where them..extra[DNA]...come..from..?

your words/say...mutation..
via..n/s..=novel..sequences..of dna...

NOT..NEW*..DNA..!

rusties..gripe..<<Similarly,...>>lol..

<<you ignore/Sagan's..use/of.."most"..in a context/of..selection.>>

this wrote..6 days later
then not expanded/upon...lol

so the whole/insult..thing..
is based on not..including...'most'..?

thats all..you got/rust/buckett?

follow-up..[rusty]..<<28 August..2010/10:29:08 AM>>..
[rebutal of catilists]..then..<
<Let's look/at Dan..again,..shall we?

,..let's help him...>>

your some..piece/of work..rusty

rusty/quote..<<His/reference..is a single/phrase..from Carl Sagan:.."Mutations..(errors..in/copying*..the genetic..sequence*)>>>see abouve/comment

rusty/quoting/..saygone..mutations/copying-errors<<..are,..on the whole,..not creative-agents...

If anything/they are quite..degenerate or destructive".>>

RUSTY/quote..<<when Sagan said.."on the whole"..
he specifically/did not mean.."all".>>..you have proof..of this?

proof..<<..A few sentences/later..he emphasises..that beneficial changes..are "rare".>>>thats more/like..a validation..for dan/nman...

end..quote.sagan
rusty/quote..,<I believe..>>
yeah we have a dis-believing..believer...[deciever]

rusty..<<Sagan was/aware-of..the difference..beween "rare" and "nonexistent".>...then goes-to..religious-bashing..dan

ok..thats/what..i got..so far
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 9:18:33 AM
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Did I mention the disingenuousness?

<<But so that we can clear the air and move on, could you answer plainly...>>

No, Dan. You’re not just looking to move on. You’re looking for condemnation of Rusty’s posts, just as you have done several times in the past regarding the posts of others.

Rusty wrote: “I regard my tirade as fair comment on your character. What your character *is* is up to you. If you don't like being accused of false witness, don't *do* it, rather than complaining of being caught out.”

Ahhh... Déjà vu.
Posted by AJ Philips, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 9:42:46 AM
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