Dan:
so, besides your personal offence, nothing?

Do you dispute the experiments of Dobzhansky, Luria or Delbruck? Obviously not.

Do you dispute my personal experience of spontaneous mutations of existing genes conferring antibiotic resistance?
Also obviously not.

Do you dispute that Sagan wrote "Accidentally useful mutations provide the working material for biological evolution" (pp27)
within four page inches of the phrase you quote?
Bet you don't, yet not including this phrase reverses the meaning of the quoted sentence.

Is this representative of what you feel to be Sagan's intended meaning?

Do use similar latitude in your professional work?

I think that you, Dan, are perfectly aware of the effect of mutations in a selective environment. You have claimed that your academic and analytic capacities are similar to my own. Use them.

I do not believe that a competent experiment would yield other than the classical result in the instance of (say) antibiotic resistance or nutrient utilisation. These classic experiments (exercises for students, which I used to supervise, long ago) are beyond your ability to dispute and are the basis for the specific meaning that Sagan intended, and of which I am certain.

Get over it, stop stalling, go to the library and stop using your ignorance as an excuse for misinforming others.

OUG:
In other threads you have stated that you don't dispute this smallest particle of evolution. Why be upset now?

I am not a medico, who would be? But really, who do you want investigating your disease (excluding mental)? I *would* recommend a doctor, but if you choose Dan over me, you are suicidal. I *like* working machines, even yours. I just think you could use it better.

Rusty

rusty..who/sold-out..long-ago/quote..:<<I do/not..believe..that a competent experiment/would yield..other than..the classical-result>>

yes..i agree

just to/get..financing..
just to/get..acces to/the..machinery[means]..of lab-facilities
YOU need/to submit...your thesis

IF YOUR THESIS...dont match/their adgenda..
of the gate-keepers[peers]..
YOU DONT GET FUNDED..or acces to publishing/staff..nor lab..facilities

thus..those who/wish-to..research..the real-cures..of..[say]..cancer[or evolution]..simply get..shut-down...or ridiculed..by their peers..

[as..we/see..you are/attempting to..do/..with dan]

<<in/the instance/of..(say)..antibiotic-resistance/..or nutrient-utilisation.>>>

we well remember..the practices..of your peers..
in the prision-camps..of the natzies..

whose/deprivations/starvations..abuses..
of its subjects..have become the base/standard..for medi-sin

that saw..those..[black-men..denied;..cure...of their syphlis/goneria...just-to study..symptom-ology

that saw/the evolution..of the latest..swine/bird-flue..mutations
created in-the lab...that follows on/from the..previous attempts..to kill humanity

[lest we/forget..the lab/made..powers..that terorised..the mailservice...also made..in labs..by professoring..hoars

<<These..classic-experiments..(exercises/for.l.students,..
which I used/to supervise,>>>[suoper-vise=audit?,<..are beyond your ability/to dispute..and are/

<<the basis..for the/specific-meaning..that/Sagan..esque/adoration.. intended,..and of/which..I-am certain...>>>

yes..im certain..you/too..probably..think-to know..so too

so/are possably...CHOSING..to back-up..
those cleverest-guys..in/the room..blogging..for further...deceit

<<Get over/it,..stop-stalling,..go to/the library..
and stop using/your ignorance..as..an excuse/for misinforming others.>>>

IS/A..SWORD..that cuts..both-ways

<<In other/threads..you ..have stated/that you don't..dispute..this smallest-particle..of evolution...Why/be upset now?>>

again..your quote..WRONGLY

how despirit..you must be

SO HERE-GOES..AGAIN...
[not for the first-time..in this thread]

micro-evolution..of species..WITHIN..their family..GENUS MEAN
is perfectly valid...

there are..millions/of good..egsamples
of LIKE making LIKE..just LIKE..their parents

BUT macro/evolution..is pure-delusion
NEVER..have sheep produced..ANYTHING/but sheep

never have..bacteria..produced...ANYTHING/but..bacteria

your trying/to miss-represent..that i say

just like you miss-represented..what dan says

so important..is it to you..
you serve..the vile...whos preciers/thesis..you do..peer/over

<<I am not..a medico>>>
im sure..i suggested..as much earlier,

no doudt...after..i have/finished..
bringing proffessing;..the truth about those/decievers.;professing lies..you will again..come out with..the latest version..of your-truth

your likely/an industry shrill

worried about..science deception..being revealed..
in its..true light..oppresion/control..genociding..the people

thus you/lot..studdy death..not life
study..sickness..not well-being

woried..about/your own illgotten comforts..
built on abusing/others equally gifted..peace/life..by good/god

it would be..hoped..in time..you actually/might
repent..decieving/so many..

but that-is..that one step-too/far..aint it

yes you/are afraid,..but..its only
the guilty..<<who would be>>..

dont sweat..you have eternity..in vivisection[realm]..to di-sect..each other...precies/pieces/preciecly

knowing..if you escape/that hell..
then you ener..the pre-fessing-hell..[professors..confessing]

[from which/..came..the ode]..that they chant..
as they replicate..where you led..

[that you thought..you/could do..to others]with..peer/licence
with imp-unity

see thou..shalt-not kill..applies/even..to a seed

thats why the rite..of prayer..[even]..is important...
for-giving..that life..that died..that we/may live

Dear Dan and OUG,

Some interesting videos when you have time to look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V_2r2n4b5c&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CvX_mD5weM&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K11knFKqW4s&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eblrphIwoJQ&feature=channel

O.

>> … George can … still not take any of religions' (plural) scriptures to be manifestly true.<<
Well, I can take the facts about pseudo-Riemannian geometry of dimension 3+1 as “manifestly true” the same as, say, seven-dimensional Euclidean geometry, as long as I stay within (pure) mathematics. (In our case, replace mathematics with culture.)

A different question is which of these two are more adequate (“true”, useful, plausible) as models of space-time. In general, the question of which mathematical model best reflects this or that feature of physical reality can be rather complicated. Even more so is the question relating personal faith to “objective reality”. In both cases there are shortcut (naive?) answers, nevertheless quite satisfactory to the “philosophically unsophisticated”.

Dear david f,
Thanks for the Steven Pinker quote. I have to confess I had never heard of him, but now will certainly read e.g the article http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/1999/nov/06/1.

My favourite joke about the two kinds of philosophers that make me think: those I understand but do not agree with (e.g. Bertrand Russell) and those I cannot understand but agree with (e.g. Alfred Whitehead). Pinker seems to become half and half. (:-)

thanks...for the links..oliver
but/mate...you-tube..has no sound

[im not going to outfit..my computer..with speakers...
as its on its last legs[and im over buying new computers...
8..plus..a hand-held..plus a notebook-lap/top]

this computer/..up-grade..scam
well mate..im over it

i went/there..done that with records..
went from my 38rpm..to the 45..rpm..format..to the 33rpm..format...digetal-disk

went from my reel/to-reel...to cassette..to 8 track

went from 8mm..to super/8..phylips..beta/and the other format/
that then went over to blue-ray..and other disk-formats...diget[how can i raise..the/middkle digets..to them...[m!m]..[n!n]

oh-yeah..began computers..
when we had-to program..our own

oh such/fun..[n!n]

sticks...minidiscs..maxie disks/floppy-disc..to..[n!n][di-get/dig-et]

WELL YOU KNOW..THE SCAM...
MATE IM OVER..playing the game

then..add-in..the cost..of internet-acces..from dial-up..fixed-line..tpg..aol..MATE--its a mugs-game

ADD-in the virus..cookies...spam...

[my last lap-top..got a virus/put into it..
simply by commenting[sbs]..and giving a donation..to wiki-leaks..

and it wernt..wiki-leaks..what done it..
but those who claim..to think/for me..peers]

anyhow...as a courtecy...how about you...giving..your opinion..
on what them links ARE SAYING...

i pushed-on..too-many bogus..links..with no descriptions...
in trying to re-educate..the over-educated..
to bother uploading..anymore of their..decietfull...links

anyhow..to quote..george..

<<..My favourite/joke..about..the two kinds/of philosophers...that make me think:..those..I understand*>>>

ie..DONT-help me..support my pre-concieved/..BELIEFS

<<but do/not..agree with>>
we all got them

if we/cant replicate..what-they..are saying
then..its a lie

<<and those I..cannot understand..but agree..with>>

to wit those decieved/by the..same delusions/peers
but who..we hold-up...as evidence..only..their..peer/authority..god-head

because they-must/be..right,,
cause they..are sooo/much..smarter..than us...

[and we/do..believe..the...same-lies]..

yet neither..can validate..it/with..fact

lol..go figure..i figure..
if you cant..explain...'it'[to a child]
think...why...

illogic..has its..own..logic

REPEAT...davids-maxum

“There is no/absurdity
that a thinking-person
cannot rationalise.”

to/be scientific..
the..'principle'...MUST/have..its faulsifyables
or it aint..science..
.
thus-its..[only a theory..or principle/..not science]

*"It is important/to distinguish/between.;..
the amount of/information
and..the quality..of that information"*

as/well..as who-is..saying..what
[and who pays..their bills]

OUG,

The sound was fine on my computer. Being busy I just sampled the content here-and-there (which seemed good) with the intention of going back and having a thorough look.

Testing whether or not bacteria develop drug resistence is falsifiable (and confirmable).

O.