Hindenburg on wheels

An Electric Bus Caught Fire After Battery Explosion in Paris
http://youtu.be/5r-yN8SugWM

Electric bus bursts into flames, sets nearby vehicles on fire in China
http://youtu.be/T71cVhxG_v4

Sorry guys this thread dropped off my list.

Indyvidual said-

We don't have an energy problem but an energy storage problem..
Canem Malum,
precisely and, a mentality problem also !

Answer- I think you're probably right Indyvidual.

Aiden said-

Canem,
>It might be an interesting exercise to see if there is even enough concentrated lithium
>reserves in the world to supply the energy storage needs
Personally I'd find that exercise boring, but if you find it interesting then go for it.

However you should be aware that there doesn't actually need to be enough of it to supply the world's energy storage needs. There are lots of alternative ways of making batteries. Sodium (which is ultra abundant) can be used instead. Vanadium batteries (an Aussie invention) are another alternative, and researchers are trying to find a way to use iron instead (to make batteries far cheaper). There are several kinds of zinc battery, and there are ongoing efforts to improve the performance of capacitors to make them competitive with batteries in some applications. There's also the option of using hydrogen fuel cells, and in some cases the electrolyses that produce the hydrogen can double as fuel cells when electricity demand is high.

Lithium batteries do have the advantage of being light and self contained, but there are enough alternatives for your concern to be unwarranted - you can debate it if you want to but don't expect Greenies to waste much time on this non issue.

Your view of electric cars as "not practical" suggests you're not up to speed on their development.

Answer- Aiden said he studied Civil Engineering- should understand mechanical, electrical systems and the implications to how this affects national/global infrastructure. Though even engineers are known to give biased advise they attempt some assertion basis. Challenges brewing between "the petroleum industry" and allies on one side and the allies of the "so called green industry" on the other.

Professor Sadoway says- to make a battery it's best to take one electrode from each of the extreme low and extreme high electronegativity sides of the periodic table.

If you can also ensure the electrodes are made from a material high in the periodic table then they will be lighter. The lightness of batteries (or fuel) is critical in electric vehicles both for overall vehicle weight and for range as is the energy density (liquid hydrogen is 1/4 the energy/ volume density of petrol). The Tesla was significantly redesigned in order to account for these factors. The Mass Number of Lithium is 3 and Sodium is 11 on the table. I keep going back to the Wikipedia Energy Density Matrices for energy/volume and energy/weight data in these discussions (there's also a Wikipedia Extended Matrix).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Aside from nuclear- hydrocarbons have some of the highest energy densities in terms of mass and volume compared with batteries of any sort. Physics puts a limit on how dense batteries can be due partly due to the relatively complex structure. Both have a place depending on the application- both mobile and grid applications have demanding requirements.

"A plutonium rod could provide the energy for lifetime driving" due to extremely high nuclear energy mass and volume density- at scale it could be relatively cheap- but there are other considerations.

Energy Storage- theoretical limits

Uranium 80M MJ/kg
Thorium 73M MJ/kg
Plutonium 2M MJ/kg in Radioisotope TE Geni

Hydrogen 120 MJ/kg (Liquid 8.4 MJ/L Gas High 4.5 MJ/L Low 0.01 MJ/L)
Gasoline 46.4 MJ/kg 34.2 MJ/L

Lithium Ion Battery 0.8 MJ/kg 2.63 MJ/L

Supercapacitor 0.01–0.030 MJ/kg 0.006–0.06 MJ/L
Electrolytic capacitor 0.00001–0.0002 MJ/kg 0.00001–0.001 MJ/L

Hybrid systems can optimize attributes of different systems sacrificing simplicity/reliability.
To me the solution is green hydrocarbons- young technology- means high cost and increased world poverty. Essentially the problem seems to be too many people.

General I support Musk's Tesla- but a novelty- history's lessons.

I can understand that some people are desperate to solve this problem but physics is a brutal master.

Time will tell if as Aiden says "Your view of electric cars as "not practical" suggests you're not up to speed on their development."

Canem,
> Professor Sadoway says- to make a battery it's best to take one electrode from each
> of the extreme low and extreme high electronegativity sides of the periodic table.

Do you know what that means? Extreme high side is top right; extreme low side is bottom left. Lithium's position at the top left means it's not desirable except where lightness is critical.

We don't have the technology to use nuclear processes for energy storage.

And yes, hydrocarbons are a pretty good store of energy. But when you consider the need for an engine to make use of that energy, and the efficiency losses in that engine, and the non-reversibility of the engine's process, a lot of their advantages over batteries disappear.

Supercapacitors have the most room for improvement, and can be charged more quickly than batteries.

> To me the solution is green hydrocarbons- young technology- means high cost and increased world poverty.
That doesn't make sense. Would you care to rephrase it?

>Essentially the problem seems to be too many people.
Which looks to me like a pathetic attempt to put it in the too hard basket. Many of the problems would still be with us if we only had half the population.

> I can understand that some people are desperate to solve this problem but physics is a brutal master.

What exactly is the problem you think physics is preventing from being solved?

>Time will tell

No, time HAS told. EVs already have the capability that some predicted would limit their use.

Aidan said-

Comment 1-

Canem,
> Professor Sadoway says- to make a battery it's best to take one electrode from each
> of the extreme low and extreme high electronegativity sides of the periodic table.

Do you know what that means? Extreme high side is top right; extreme low side is bottom left. Lithium's position at the top left means it's not desirable except where lightness is critical.

Answer 1- Obviously Aiden doesn't understand what electronegativity is- and what the periodic table is??

Comment 2-

We don't have the technology to use nuclear processes for energy storage.

Answer 2-

We do in the form of nuclear fuel rods in Nuclear Reactors and Radioisotope Thermal Generators.

Comment 3-

And yes, hydrocarbons are a pretty good store of energy. But when you consider the need for an engine to make use of that energy, and the efficiency losses in that engine, and the non-reversibility of the engine's process, a lot of their advantages over batteries disappear.

Answer 3-

At least Aiden admits that hydrocarbons are a good store of energy. Maybe "some" of the advantages over liquid hydrogen disappears- the issue with energy density by volume seems pretty resistant to a solution. But yes there are issues with ICE engine efficiency losses-about 3/5 loss- but they are still offset by other advantages.

Comment 4-

Supercapacitors have the most room for improvement, and can be charged more quickly than batteries.

Answer 4-

The energy density to volume and mass and cost are the over-riding requirements in vehicle and grid storage.
Supercapacitors have three or four orders of magnitude mismatch with gasoline. They are a great product in certain applications just not in vehicles or grid storage. But yes there are experimental buses that use them- they use Maxwell supercapacitors as I understand- not sure of the range. Batteries can be charged by battery swapping if the infrastructure is available.


Comment 5-

> To me the solution is green hydrocarbons- young technology- means high cost and increased world poverty.
That doesn't make sense. Would you care to rephrase it?

Answer 5-

Green hydrocarbons- for example CO2 mining and CO2 to kerosene/ gasoline technology- development has a cost that needs to be passed on to the consumer- if governments restrict options by law then it forces people to pay a higher proportion of their income to satisfy government requirements. While this is sometimes necessary- it should be done cautiously.

Comment 6-

>Essentially the problem seems to be too many people.
Which looks to me like a pathetic attempt to put it in the too hard basket. Many of the problems would still be with us if we only had half the population.

Answer 6-

There are people in the world that create solutions and there are people in the world that create problems. Sometimes whole cultures are problematic. Sometimes you have to let the problem makers find out the dangers of their actions by direct experience- but you should stay out of their way otherwise they will drag you into their sh-t storm. People use energy to build things in factories, heat/ cook/ light homes, for transport- if there were less people then the world would use less energy. Energy has undesirable outputs- the less energy used the less undesirable outputs. I'm sure Edward Bernay's Consumer Culture has caused some of the problems in the west (Bernay's was the Hebrew Psychologist that brought consumerism along with many European Psychologists to the west from Austria- he was Freud's nephew twice- once by marriage- psychology dominates the public realm even today- I'm not certain that it satisfies the Hippocratic Principle- maybe they use the Hippnocratic Principle).

I'm happy if you choose to get an electric car- I'm not happy if you want to force me to buy one.