The 12th annual 'Closing the Gap' report presented to parliament today by PM Morrison was sorry reading for all Australians. Only two of the seven targets set by the government to improve the well being of our Indigenous brothers and sisters has been met in the twelve month reporting period. The goal of 95% of four year old Aboriginal children enrolled in early childhood education by 2025 is on target only about 5 percentage points below the national average. As well, halving the gap in terms of Aboriginal kids completing Year 12 is also on track. These were the same two targets met in last years report.

However targets in Indigenous health and employment still fall well below expectations. In 2018, the Indigenous child mortality rate was twice the rate of that for non-Indigenous children. Life expectancy for Indigenous people is 8 to 9 years less than the rest of the community. The other areas of failure were school attendance, literacy and numeracy and employment. Incarceration rates for the Indigenous community are not targeted.

Scott Morrison and his Indigenous Affairs Minister Ken Wyett attempted to put a positive spin and gloss on the report claiming black progress is being made, and the report is not indicative of that progress, others may disagree.

Paul,

Indigenous settlements have community councils, exercising 'self-determination', as they have done now for nearly fifty years.

Surely self-determination means that those councils have the responsibility - and the people in those 'communities' have the obligations - to make sensible decisions, correct mistakes and/or modify decisions, and to generally be responsible for the well-being of the populations there, especially the most vulnerable ?

Often there is no whitefella within cooee, except of course all of those employed to perform particular functions in health, education, etc. So who is stopping those councils from exercising 'self-determination' ?

And by the way, those life expectancy figures: given that urban, working Indigenous people have pretty much the same life expectancy as other non-Indigenous Australians, the much-shorter life expectancy of people in remote settlements is concealed by the figures - as so often in Indigenous statistics, the figures have to be differentiated: metropolitan, urban, rural, remote; working, non-working.

I would suggest that life expectancy in remote areas with little or no employment for Indigenous people is more like thirty years less than for other fellow-Australians.

Joe

The figures are not going to improve until aboriginal people start taking responsibility for their own health and education.
Billions of dollars have been poured into health centres, aboriginal health workers and extra staff for schools with indigenous pupils. There comes a time when support has reached its limit and only personal action is left.
In the north there are programs in some towns where support workers go to the homes of secondary students, wake them up, drive them to school, where they get breakfast, are provided lunch, then drive them home after school. And guess what, even then the kids frequently refuse to get out of bed or if they get to school, they abscond during the day.
In remote communities both breakfast and a cooked lunch are provided. In a few of the larger communities, swimming pools have been built, with a no school, no pool rule to try and encourage attendance.
Until parents value education and provide a supportive environment then attendance and performance aren’t going to improve.
With regard health. Aboriginal people have a higher rate of smoking, higher rate of obesity, higher rate of no exercise and higher rate of poor quality diet. Also worse compliance with medications. Not one of these things can be changed by the government, only the people concerned. When I see tv ads for Aboriginal Health Services featuring obese health workers I can only wonder at the message that sends.

I wonder by how much the Aborigine population outside Australia will be boosted due to the latest high Court ruling ?
Re closing the Gap, what exactly is this Gap that needs closing ? Aren't the Aborigines already receiving way more for way less ? I can only see effort as the only Gap that needs closing !

Hi Individual,

Yes, you're right - when my wife and I used to rant and rave about what could be done in this or that community, a close relative used to comment wryly, "Yes, just add the miracle ingredient - effort."

So many opportunities, so many chances, so much power to do so much, but so much disillusion.

Well, except for higher education, with close to 45-50,000 graduates so far, that total doubling every ten years or so, and currently around 25,000 students in the system. Overwhelmingly urban and women, rarely remote and/or male. So that's where the Gap is.

Joe

As expected the forums Usual Suspects on aboriginal matters will resort to deflection, finger pointing and playing the blame game, its all Darkies fault! None of that addresses the systemic problem of disadvantage that many of our Indigenous brothers and sisters face in their daily lives. Not much comfort to know there are those of your race graduating from university in ever increasing numbers, if your child dies at birth.
I listened to the speeches in parliament yesterday. I took a lot out of what was said;

Scott Morrison; "Mr Speaker, for 12 years, I have sat in this chamber and listened to Closing the Gap speeches. It’s a tale of hope, frustration and disappointment. A tale of good intentions. Indeed good faith. But the results are not good enough. This is sadly still true.....Despite the best of intentions; investments in new programs; and bi-partisan goodwill, Closing the Gap has never really been a partnership with Indigenous people. We perpetuated an ingrained way of thinking, passed down over two centuries and more, and it was the belief that we knew better than our Indigenous peoples. We don’t. We also thought we understood their problems better than they did. We don’t. They live them."

Hopefully a new approach will come about, and real improvements will eventuate.

Hi paul,

Yes, there are serious problems when, say, a bloke beats the hell out of his beloved. Hmmmm ...... what on earth can be done ? Hmmmmm ........ persuade him to stop ? Who ? The community council ? Organise anger management classes ? Find him a job, with perhaps very basic skills training beforehand ? Find a role for the community council in all that, and not just for outside bureaucrats ?

Surely self-determination means the obligation to make decisions, correct or modify those which are off-kilter, and for others, especially outsiders, to keep out of the process ? If others are out of the decision-making process, what the hell are they supposed to do ? i.e. without being accused of interfering ?

So how is any of this the fault of governments or whitefellas ? If communities want to grind everything into the dust, why is it anybody else's business ? Communities have the power, they can use it - they should use it, without passing the buck for responsibilities onto someone else.

Joe

Most aboriginals can only think what is happening now, do I have a feed? That is they way they live. The race must be bred out and anyone with less than 25% not considered aboriginal. Many are not interested in personal development or money saving to get ahead in Western society. They consider Western society as having stolen from them and they are owed. Many of the stolen generation are far better off than their peers; because they were placed in situations where they developed skills suitable to exist in Western society. Many just want to go home to the tribe and be hunter gathers.

The only way that city socialists like Paul will ever understand anything about the real world is to stick them out in an aboriginal settlement for a year or so.

It will take at least 6 months to open their eyes, & start to gain some common sense, then another 6 months to start to gain some wisdom. He might then actually understand that pouring sit down money into the people in these places is half the problem. We have taught them well to bludge, & did they learn that one.

We need to get out, not spend a single cent on these communities, until we see them doing things for themselves, & then make money hard enough to get to be valued, & then give only just enough.

Once they value what they have been given, there may be some hope, but only if the likes of Paul are muzzled.

45-50,000 graduates so far, that total doubling every ten years or so
Loudmouth2,
I only ever see such "graduates" boosting the numbers on the Govt payroll. I'd like to see some hands-on workers in private enterprise paying their way for a change !
Genarally, "Graduates" are nothing more than votes for Labor !

Usual Suspects on aboriginal matters will resort to deflection,
Paul1405,
you're the only deflection here, deflecting common sense ! Open your eyes, mind & ears before commenting on matters you have no idea of !
May I suggest you go & work in an indigenous community for a couple of years using your own policies ! Then give us your new version of such matters !

Individual,

I'm sure that there are plenty of Indigenous graduates doing just that. Yes, of course, many are vucked into the Industry, even those with good intentions.

I'm puzzled about the venom and antagonism against Indigenous graduates, and also Indigenous university students. What the Christ do you want people to do ? Sit on their arses forever ? Surely giving higher education a try - usually after twelve or more years through secondary schooling - is a more admirable pathway than doing bugger-all ? I can understand the 'Left' having that disgusting attitude, in their gutless support for the Indigenous Industry andelites, but surely not you ?

Joe

the venom and antagonism against Indigenous graduates
Loudmouth2,
I'm deeply disappointed that it is interpreted as such. I don't know how much you know about what's happening but I can tell you that the idea of quota being preferred to merit has proven to not work.
I know of one (1) so-called indigenous (one parent is not) who has become a role model in the community he grew up in & is doing a better job than most fly-ins from the cities.
I know there are many such people but hardly any work for the betterment of their community !
I'm fine with 45 thousand graduates as long as at least 75% of them are pulling their weighjt instead of simply boosting the votes for Labor !

Joe, I have news for you, I worked for more than 10 years in AUSTRALIA'S BIGGEST ABORIGINAL COMMUNITY.....REDFERN, SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES. Now exactly what is your claim to fame on this subject? Flag making, honky web site, South Australia, even remote communities, in numbers they are small beer in relation to the urban Aboriginal population. You make all sorts of accusations about people, but never offer evidence to back them up. Banging on about the minority does not fix the problems for the majority. At times you come across as someone who is very bitter towards Aboriginal Australians. The hard right red necks I expect that from them, their mind set wont allow them to think any other way.

Like some here, I'm not trying to proportion blame to whitefella or blackfella, its time for positive constrictive action by all those of goodwill.

BTW; REDFERN is now a success story compared to the days when I was there.

Josephus; "The Aboriginal race must be bred out" take your crap and shove it where the sun don't shine. My wife as an indigenous person read that and called it disgusting. She said why don't you breed your self out. I told her you claimed to be a Christian, her reply "The blokes a Nazi, maybe a ill conceived Christian Nazi, but defiantly a Nazi."

Indy, not bad coming from a bloke swing off the taxpayer teat himself.

Paul,

Not sure what you are going on about. Actually, my father was born in Redfern, and my mum's dad died there. I think I lived there as a small kid before we moved up-market to St Peters and then Chullora.

And what has all that to do with Indigenous participation at universities ?

Currently, the equivalent of almost two Indigenous young-adult age-groups are enrolled at universities, overwhelmingly in mainstream, standard, degree-level and post-graduate courses. I'm all for that, even if you and Individual aren't. What graduates do is - like any graduates anywhere - up to them.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry it was an Indy comment I accidentally attributed to you. The bloke lives up a tree sucking off the taxpayer, has not the slightest knowledge or understanding of Aboriginal people. Judging by this forum I wouldn't want to live in a remote Aboriginal community, too many rednecks in the joint. The Indy's and Hassy's etc all claim to know from experience all about these remote communities. If I went on like these fellas do on this forum with my wife's people, they would string me up from the nearest tree. Anyway "back home" as they call it, I have too much respect for the people to put them down in that way. I see the problems of disadvantage there to. You said something about the "affinity with the land". I can't explain it, nor do I say all have it, my wife does, despite not living on tribal land for 40 odd years, I know exactly where she wants to be buried one day. High in the hills among her people.

You do prattle on about indigenous participation at university, all well and good, AND I AM ALL FOR THAT, UNLIKE WHAT YOU CLAIMED ABOUT ME. BUT you seem to think that one glowing achievement, which you refer to constantly, miraculously negates all the ills, infant mortality, unemployment, substandard housing, incarceration rates, etc etc all those things that if you do comment on, its only to be disparaging towards Aboriginal people, like two or three of the forum rednecks are. Why, did they reject you in some way? I hope they didn't

Paul I’m curious as to what problems the “ Majority” have. No access to standard education? No access to standard health care? No access to the housing market?
If they have all that then they have exactly the same opportunities as everyone else in urban society, and are in fact, far better off than the Asians and Africans who arrive here with little English, little family contact, no money but big ambitions and a great work ethic.
The very fact that we now have Asian kids topping school classes and African kids working as far flung as up here in the Kimberley shows that even the most disadvantaged are forging ahead, closing their gaps rapidly.
Obviously you are missing something.

My wife as an indigenous person read that and called it disgusting
Paul1405,
I seem to recall you telling us your wife was Maori ? I apologise if I'm remembering incorrectly !

That's right Indy, my wife is an Indigenous person of Aotearoa, known to you as New Zealand. Can be indigenous without being an Australian Aboriginal, looks like you didn't know that.

BTW; The Sami people, also known as Lapps are the indigenous people of Finland, and I bet not one of them can throw a boomerang.

And for your edification and clarification; There are approximately 370 million Indigenous Peoples worldwide, in over 90 countries. And not all of them are Australian aboriginals. Amazing.

Paul1405,
What a cheap cop-out. I'm indigenous also but I don't pretend to be Aborigine as you unsuccessfully tried to imply with the missus.
Do you know that they have Boomerang clubs in Europe, perhaps not in Lapland but I attended one throwing event in 1965 in Bavaria. I have not seen a boomerang throwing club here though.
I have always been aware of your lack of integrity but you appear to be reaching for new lows.
Indigenous indeed ! Didn't you actually once confirm to me here that the Maori aren't actually indigenous to NZ ? There was another crowd before they were annihilated by the ancestors of the present lot !
Go out & buy a packet of cornflakes, with a bit of luck you might win some integrity !

Indy, not bad coming from a bloke swing off the taxpayer teat himself.
Paul1405,
I have paid for my lease on that teat, are you & your "indigenous" missus paying for yours ?

Hi Paul,

Thanks for those massive non sequiturs, trying to link Indigenous higher education with child neglect, addictions, lifelong unemployment, etc. So, you think that there is some kind of trade-off - that some Indigenous people enjoy higher education at (somehow) the cost to other Indigenous people ?

Higher education is open to all Indigenous people, if they have the entry qualifications - and that means getting successfully through school - and that mean kids going to school - and that means, for all Indigenous people, wherever they live, looking after one's kids.

Two Indigenous populations: my wife wrote about this nearly fifteen years ago now. Plus ca change. People make choices: some positive, some negative. That's 'self-determination'.

Joe

Have a look at photos of Aboriginal dancers taken in the 19th Century, doing tribal dances and compare them with photos of Aboriginal dancers today.

Why are so many of today's dancers fat?

I always find it amusing that those who are the most earnest advocates for government intervention are those who are the most outraged when said intervention fails. Those who think the answer to every social question is more government get really pissed off when shown it isn't.

The gap was never going to be closed. It will never be closed while-ever a portion of the aboriginal community want to live in an aboriginal community. The idea that someone living in some sh!thole shanty on the outskirts WhoTheHellKnowsWhere can have the same health outcomes as someone living 20 minutes drive from a world-class hospital is just bonkers. But some want to believe it and there are any number of politicians and parties whose sole function is to tell people what they want to hear.

And after 20-odd years of utter failure to deliver the impossible, what do these people think the answer is....MORE government. Sheesh!

Got o get up early in the morning to fool a wise old cock like Indy.

Again Indy, over the years I have said on many occasions on this forum, and known to you and other regulars that my wife is Maori.

"Didn't you actually once confirm to me here that the Maori aren't actually indigenous to NZ ?" No I did not, in fact that is a furphy, you are most likely referring to the Moriori a now extinct Polynesian people who populated the Chatham Islands. There is no conclusive evidence that the Moriori ever inhabited Aotearoa. Like waves of Aboriginal settlement on the continent of Australia, there were waves of Polynesian settlement in New Zealand.

Now did you not lament that the last pension increase was not enough to get you another schooner of beer down at Gods Waiting Room. Do you measure your taxpayer funded welfare in schooners of beer?

"I have paid for my lease on that teat, are you & your "indigenous" missus paying for yours ?"

No you have not Indy, wasting whatever you earned, pissing it up against the wall, playing pokies etc, now the taxpayer has to keep you till you die. After nearly 50 years of paying tax, and still doing so, my wife and I have modest investments in property and cash assets, which prevents us from obtaining taxpayer welfare as you do. Combined, we budget our living expenses at a modest $600/week, probely less than you suck out of the taxpayer, there is also your freebies from State and Local government you pocket

o-ho. Reading the thread its clear Paul got caught out trying to claim a special understanding of the aboriginal plight via his wife who isn't actually aboriginal. She's 'indigenous' and it seems all 'indigenous' people understand the aboriginal plight...or something.

So now he's throwing mud around at a furious rate to try to muddy the water. A disciple of SR?

We're all indigenous to somewhere. I'm indigenous to Australia. Born here. My parents born here. All bar one grandparent born here. All bar two great-grandparents born here. Oh and one ancestor whose ancestors were born here a few millennia ago.

How far back does your heritage have to go to be 'indigenous'?

Hi Joe,

I'm not trading off anything, you cannot mitigate failures by pointing to successes as you attempt to do. If I say; "Aboriginal infant mortality rates are a failure." Its not a neutral balance if you say; "Aboriginal tertiary education rates are a success." A bit like a doctor saying to a patent; "You have terminal cancer, but you have excellent vision." Does one simply counter the other and the patent goes home feeling like he did before he seen the doctor...no.

You simply deflect away from the '2020 Closing the Gap Report' is it too much for you. Your first response was to play the blame game, its Indigenous settlements and community councils, nothing to do with the report, but you finger point failure as the responsibility of Aboriginal people themselves. Even if we accept that assertion, we still have the failures. That goes down well with the rednecks as their game is to denigrate Aboriginal people at every opportunity. This from you; "So many opportunities, so many chances, so much power to do so much, but so much disillusion".... its a case of, "we set you up to fail" and sure enough "you failed" I was right all along, what does that prove?

Your next effort; "a bloke beats the hell out of his beloved.", again nothing to do with the report, just more deflection, more finger pointing, more of the blame game, all fodder for the forum rednecks.

What I'm asking from you Joe, is your answers to the failures in the report, but that's not what you are posting.

Paul1405,
You're sounding more & more like one of those 19 year old invalid pensioners !

Oops, apologies I meant self diagnosed invalid Pensioners.

Paul,

So you're suggesting that Indigenous university students and graduates on the one hand, owe something to parents neglecting their children, getting on the grog, gambling and brawling on the other hand ? I don't think so at all, not in the slightest.

People make choices. Some choose to go to uni. Some choose to stay unemployed - and unemployable - illiterate, innumerate and skill-less, in and out of jail, and unintentionally dying much earlier. Yes, some have more advantages than others, but it's not as if some Indigenous people are taking, somehow, some quantity of advantage from others to add to their own.

Urban Indigenous people, and those who go to uni per se, have no role at all in keeping some other Indigenous people in a dreadful and deadening cycle of life. Unless, of course, you wish to blame the victim in your attacks on students and graduates ?

As Noel Pearson advised many years ago, I too look forward to Aboriginal people on lifelong welfare, getting down from the welfare pedestal, taking a cut in their lifelong income, making the effort to gain some skills and get into employment - even if it's at a lower income level than they would have been on welfare - and getting their kids through schooling.

Joe

From the Bureau of statics: "The final estimated resident Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population of Australia as at 30 June 2016 was 798,400 people, or 3.3% of the total Australian population. This population estimate represents a 19% increase in the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population estimates from the estimate of 669,900 for 30 June 2011. The size of this increase cannot be explained by demographic factors alone and will be explored in the upcoming publication Census of Population and Housing: Understanding the Increase in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Counts Between 2011 and 2016 (cat. no. 2077.0) to be released October, 2018."

The big 19% increase in population growth in those five years was obviously from non indigenous bloods claiming aboriginal status to gain aboriginal welfare benefits. I once worked with a fellow who had a son from his first wife and a step son of aboriginal wife, and there were different levels of child support for the two boys. So it was advantageous for him to register his son as aboriginal

Josephus,

It's quite amazing that the increases in Indigenous population, from one Census to the next, is usually greater than the number of births in the meantime. According to the Censuses, no Indigenous people ever die. Not only that, but age-cohorts - people who are in one age-group at a Census, and five years older at the next - increase in size from one Census to the next.

Frankly I don't believe the Census figures in relation to the Indigenous population. I suspect that in some situations, people are counted more than once, and others (perhaps sometimes the same people) are counted more than once under different names. As well, some dick-brain 'progressives' tick the box out of a misplaced sense of solidarity. I wouldn't be surprised if the Indigenous component of the Australian population is closer to 2.3 % than 3.3 %, and that this has been the case since 1971.

Of course, this over-estimation in the figures affects Indigenous graduate numbers: at the last Census, the ABS counted more than 49,000 graduates. I think the more accurate figure in 2016 (i.e. at the end of 2015) was around 38-40,000, and is currently around 46-48,000, or about one in every eight Indigenous adults, roughly equivalent to the stock of graduates in most Eastern European countries.

Two populations, each going their own way: to over-simplify, some seizing opportunities in education and employment; the other population content to remain on welfare. People make their own choices.

Joe

As Noel Pearson advised many years ago, I too look forward to Aboriginal people on lifelong welfare,
Loudmouth2,
You should go for a drive through his community !

Josephus, that must be galling to a person of your faith, having the Indigenous population increasing, when its your genocidal belief that "the race must be bred out"!

The answer to your question is easily explained. What is happening, as the numbers in society who are willing to accept aboriginality increases, more and more people are willing to acknowledge their true heritage. I suppose some lament the good old days when if a "Darkie" moved into their street they could agitate to have them kicked out of the all white neighbourhood. In the past many of those with aboriginal blood would deny and suppress it because of the disadvantage of being black caused in such things as employment, housing and the social stigma it attracted in general. My maternal-grandmother did just that so she could marry a middle class white cow cocky in the Wellington Shire of NSW around the turn of the 20th century, she even become a Catholic, staunch at that, she never drank, and never smoked, just worked her arse off on the farm. Here own grandmother had been a "servant" to a white farmer in the Bathurst district from the 1850's, she bared him several children, but only two survived to adulthood. By all accounts he was a decent chap and like my grandfather treated their women well. My first cousin, who still lives in Bathurst, at well over the age of 60, has gone through the process of establishing her aboriginality. Said I should do the same, I said; "No I'm not doing that, both our mothers denied any aboriginal connection, I recall that silly peroxide hair my aunt would give her kids. They both denied any aboriginal connection right up to the day of their death, my mother was 84, claiming she had Spanish blood from the island of Mauritius. When my oldest son tells me he should claim to be Aboriginal to get some benefits, I tell him to; "just keep on working, and forget that nonsense".

cont

cont

Looks like my cousin is one of those increasing the Aboriginal population, good for her. Just as funny, when old grand-uncle Dick would come to visit in his big old car with a tribe of kids, my father would say; "Christ, bloody old Dick, he looks like Albert Namatjira!" Mum hated him saying that. A lot of racists back in those days.

"Christ, bloody old Dick, he looks like Albert Namatjira!" Mum hated him saying that. A lot of racists back in those days.
Paul1405,
I'm missing something here, what is racist with that ??

Hi Individual,

Please forgive my poor grammar - I meant:

"As Noel Pearson advised many years ago, I too look forward to Aboriginal people WHO ARE CURRENTLY on lifelong welfare, getting DOWN from the welfare pedestal, taking a cut in their lifelong NO-WORK income, and making the effort to gain some skills and get into employment - even if it's at a lower income level than they would have been on welfare - and getting their kids through schooling."

I hope that this makes what I was getting at, a bit clearer.

Joe

Joe,

Not only Noel Pearson but also the late Burnam Burnham, he said it to me in 1979 during a discussion of ways to help people and he was scathing of "sit down money" and its effect on his people.

Paul, "bred out" is the opposite of "inbred"' which you seem to hold up as the desirable outcome for the tribes.

Is this the 21st Century effect of inbreeding?
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/is-this-australia-hundreds-in-hiding-after-fleeing-aurukun-riots-20200210-p53z9o.html?fbclid=IwAR3ngXVtC2A_EnL2nxnnwiiENQsVw8jVqI5gN8p9LfMs8LVi3Q5A-yAu8eQ

A conquered people, disposed of their land and stripped of their dignity. What do you expect?

One government scheme that has been described as "sit down money" is the Community Development Program (CDP) begun in 2015. In a 2019 survey it was reported of the 35,000 participants in the CDP scheme 89% were Indigenous. From 1,000 people surveyed, 36% of participants say their communities are worse off under the scheme, 21% felt their community was better off and 32% said their community was the same as before it began in 2015. As a condition of income support, remote area participants must engage in up to 25 hours of work for the dole, five days a week. A review of CDP found Aboriginal participants were three times more likely to be penalised for non attendance than others, with Aboriginal men under 35 being the highest penalised group. They were also the most likely participants to have poor English-language proficiency, lower education levels, limited online and phone access to deal with Centrelink, and less mobility. CEO of the Aboriginal Peak Organisations Northern Territory (APONT), John Patterson, said the “CDP experiment should be abandoned and replaced with a positive Aboriginal-led model that ensures a better future for our people”.

Can we put the Community Development Program down as another one of the failures of Whitie knows what is best for Aboriginal people.

Josephus, I took it from what you said, that you favoured some kind of Nazi style, controlled breeding program, a program to breed out Aboriginality. That was one of the objectives of white Aboriginal Controllers back in the 1930's, a way of dealing with the Aboriginal problem.

Pauo,

The forerunner of the CDP, the Community Development Employment Program, CDEP, was scrapped a decade ago as a complete failure. Government failure ? I'm not so sure: in the communities I was familiar with, the local community organisers of their programs decided what counted as 'work': the usual was:

* . looking after one's home;

* . mowing one's lawn;

* a bit of nominal community service.

Some people were on CDEP - training for employment - for more than twenty years.

Strange: when I was first working in factories in the sixties, I was given, at most, a few minutes training, and then onto the job. Being a feckless youth, I had about four or five different jobs a year (those were the days) but had little trouble in getting into the swing each time. And I'm not all that bright either.

You very helpfully put your finger on some of the background problems: " ..... the most likely participants to have poor English-language proficiency, lower education levels, limited online and phone access to deal with Centrelink, and less mobility."

So what would you propose to overcome these problems ? Who should be involved - apart from the participants ? Can courses be devised for each of these crucial obstacles ? Of course. Will the participants take them ? Hmmmm, who knows ? They don't seem to have done, up until now. Live in hope, eh, Paul ?

Joe

Pau,

You have an uncanny ability to talk bullsh!t about Aboriginal policy. In the thirties, if anything, authorities were very concerned about the opposite of 'breeding out' - that too much fraternisation and casual liaisons could (and probably did) create more problems with unmarried mothers, neglected children, child mortality, etc.

So in most States, new Aborigines' Acts specified that white men were to be kept from 'consorting' with Aboriginal women, with strict penalties. Those laws were still on the books here in SA until about 1962. Of course, like most unattractive social rules, they were ignored: so many kids - in the absence of any single mothers' financial benefits - had to be put into care. Hence the so-called 'Stolen Generation'. [Maybe, one day, there'll be a class action launched by some major law firm on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of SGs; but none seem to be forthcoming; only for poor Bruce Trevorrow]. Amazingly, the years that such benefits were brought in, the SG seemed to have come to an end. Hmm, I wonder if there was some sort of connection between the two seemingly unrelated issues.

So no, you're way-off track. If anything, as soon as Aboriginal people had the facility to move to the towns and cities, after the War, they enthusiastically liaised and consorted and thoroughly enjoyed themselves, even inter-marrying (as you and I have done). Wow, little did they (and our spouses) know, they were breeding themselves out.

Joe

Paul1405,
you'd be better off in 1960's south Africa with your mentality !

Joe as an apologists you do a good job, you are well versed concerning the 5% of Aboriginals living in South Australia, but your knowledge of the other 95% elsewhere is questionable.

O. A. Neville, Chief Protector in Western Australia from 1915 to 1940. (He said) He could do nothing for Aborigines, who were dying out, but he could absorb the "half-castes":

The native must be helped in spite of himself! Even if a measure of discipline is necessary it must be applied, but it can be applied in such a way as to appear to be gentle persuasion ... the end in (my) view will justify the means employed.

Neville had a "two-point" plan:

First, the "full-bloods" would die out through interbreeding.

Second, take "half-castes" away from their mothers; then, control marriages among "half-castes" and so encourage intermarriage with the white community. According to Neville; "(The) young half-blood maiden is a pleasant, placid, complacent person as a rule, while the quadroon [one-quarter Aboriginal] is often strikingly attractive, with her oftimes auburn hair, rosy freckled colouring, and good figure ..." These were the sort of people who should be elevated "to our own plane". In this way, it would be possible to "eventually forget that there were EVER ANY ABORIGINIES IN AUSTRALIA". Here, in unmistakable language and intent, was ideology justifying why biology (genocide) should solve this "social problem".

Neville on to establish Sister Kate's Orphanage in 1933, on the guiding principle that the good Sister took in those whose "lightness of colour" could lead them to assimilation and intermarriage.

Neville's legacy - his mishmash of nineteenth-century race theory, twentieth-century eugenics, his own brand of assimilationism, and illogic - is to be found in the quite astonishing Natives
(Citizenship Rights) Act 1944 (WA).

Indy, you give yourself up! Said you were a reffo but not a Pom, never saying from whence you came. I wouldn't admit I came from South Africa, if I was a white honky, and a functionary of the apartheid regime myself. And to think us taxpayer have to keep you.

The West Australian 14 Feb 2020 PETER LAW - STATE POLITICAL EDITOR

Buurabalayji Thalanyji Aboriginal Corporation boss Matthew Slack with Bill Shorten with Mark McGowan.
Parliament has been told the “tyrannical” boss of one of WA’s biggest indigenous corporations fleeced the organisation of millions of dollars.
In an explosive speech to the Legislative Assembly yesterday, Nationals MP Vince Catania described Buurabalayji Thalanyji Aboriginal Corporation boss Matthew Slack as a “fraudulent” chief executive.
Mr Slack has been photoState graphed with Mark McGowan and former Federal Labor leader Bill Shorten but there is no suggestion they are implicated in any way.
The “tyrannical” chief executive of one of WA’s largest Aboriginal corporations “falsified” his CV, then “allegedly fleeced” the organisation of millions of dollars, State Parliament has been told.
In an explosive speech to the Legislative Assembly yesterday, Nationals politician Vince Catania, described Buurabalayji Thalanyji Aboriginal Corporation boss Matthew Slack as a “fraudulent CEO”.
The North West Central MP used parliamentary privilege to say the corporation’s members had suffered oppression “at the hands of the company’s tyrannical chief executive officer Matthew Slack, who is being propped up by a board of puppet directors and protected by high-powered Perth lawyer Martin Bennett”.
He also read a statement signed by BTAC members that described Mr Slack as a “compulsive liar” who claimed to be indigenous to get his $250,000 job “but there were serious doubts about this”.
BTAC, which is responsible for managing the economic interests and native title payments made to the Thalanyji people of Onslow in the Pilbara, was placed under special administration by the Office of the Registrar of Indigenous Corporations last month.
Mr Catania told Parliament that the special administrator’s preliminary findings, released two weeks ago, “only just scratch the surface of what I classify as the extreme squandering of indigenous corporation money”.
He said the special administrator had released information from the period July 2017 to December last year that showed BTAC had spent $3.3 million of members’ money on legal fees, $1 million on flights and another $1.2 million on accommodation and meals.

Cont]
“We understand that that does not cover the frequent bookings of the presidential suite at the Shangri-La Hotel in Sydney by the CEO, Matthew Slack,” he said.
“It also shows a cost of $550,000 in security guards and systems for the CEO, Matthew Slack, who the administrator understands at one time had three security guards on active duty in his office.
“That is what is being audited. That is what the administrator has shown happened over two years. That calculation does not include the credit card use.
“There were a number of personal expenses claimed including iPads, lingerie, boxes at the football, restaurants, valet parking and charges that I have been told also include strip clubs, based on the description on the statement.
“Money was also spent on expensive accommodation — as I said, the Shangri-La — and Crown hotels. Most of this credit card use occurred over that time. I have been told that the average spend has been between $15,000 and $20,000 each month. Remember, this CEO has a base salary of $250,000. Members can add to that the $15,000 or $20,000 of what has been recorded.”

Seems you haven’t a great deal of experience with CDEP Paul, otherwise you would have seen the benefits. I was actually the bookkeeper in our community, paying the CDEP wages and the scheme was not forced upon anyone. It had to be a majority community vote, with everyone over 18 having a vote.
Naturally the women and old people wanted the men working. Not only did maintenance and repairs get done around the place, but old people’s lawns got mowed, artefacts got made that could be sold to tourists and the working men had a reason to get out of bed in the mornings. The place was a lot happier after CDEP started.
As for your comment about half caste children being removed, well, there has only ever been one proven case of an aboriginal child being removed without welfare concerns for their safety. There is no record anywhere of any aboriginal child being removed from a home that was safe and caring. Hell, my part aboriginal husband and his many siblings grew up across the road from the police station in the Kimberley and not once was there any threat of removal. Nor of any of his more than one hundred first cousins except for one, the daughter of a single alcoholic mother, living on a reserve.
It’s about time facts replaced all the emotional rhetoric.

I think Paul1405 is simply losing it. Don't blame his parents though, I think he picked up an insipid accelerant when he joined the ALP/Greens .
He is the most unconstructive poster & he is constantly derailing our debates for the sake of derailing. He has no interest in anything productive or positive. In a word he's a waste of time, space & oxygen !

Paul, you seem to have a problem with part aboriginal people “ assimilating”. Are you honestly saying you would have preferred to have left these kids living in squalor, young girls forced into marriage with old men, or forced into prostitution, as was often the case? Life expectancy of 40. Lives managed by sorcery, and brutal cultural rules. Subject to diseases that had no traditional treatment?
And why? These kids were more white than black, why should they be denied access to their white heritage? What is so superior about aboriginal culture that ever aboriginal person with white blood should only be allowed to live by black cultural rules?

Big Nanna, your tag team with Joe, seems to be failing, or is it simply a comprehension problem on your part. You said; "Seems you haven’t a great deal of experience with CDEP Paul". Then you go on blasting away about the benefits of the CDEP scheme. I never attacked the CDEP program as a failure, in fact I only made reference to the later CDP scheme. It was your tag team partner Joe saying;
I was familiar with, the local community organisers of their programs (CDEP) decided what counted as 'work': the usual was:

* . looking after one's home;

* . mowing one's lawn;

* a bit of nominal community service.

Some people were on CDEP - training for employment - for more than twenty years. and he went on about how quickly he was trained in factory jobs, having a go at the long termers on CDEP.

So have your shot at Joe, not me, all I said was a quote from John Patterson, who said the “CDP experiment should be abandoned and replaced with a positive Aboriginal-led model that ensures a better future for our people”.

Indy, you said you had spent time in "Black Communities", now I understand where, it was in South Africa and you were inside your armoured truck at the time!

inside your armoured truck at the time!
Paul1405,
Sounds like you have an armoured truck doing wheelies in your head !

Hi Paul,

Strange tag team, that can agree to disagree on a fundamental issue like CDEP/CDP. It may have worked (or may be working) elsewhere but not positively down this way.

But I know only about SA, even though I was raised in NSW and didn't visit any other state or territory until I was fifteen.

No, I don't know much about WA, except a couple of visits, and what I've read and typed and put on my web-site:

www.firstsources.info

Specifically, Neville's book:

http://www.firstsources.info/uploads/3/4/5/4/34544232/australias_coloured_minority.pdf

There's a couple of thousand pages of transcript on that WA page, nothing much really.

Still, with your vast knowledge of Redfern, and therefore all of Indigenous Australia, past, present and future, you could eat that for breakfast :)

Joe

On Closing the Gap, at least in relation to Indigenous higher education participation, in the latest Ed. Dept data (2018), Indigenous women commencing university study make up 2.42 % of all Australian domestic female commencements.

Given the inflation in ABS data, maybe as high as 20 %, in relation to Indigenous numbers, and the DEflation in Ed. Dept data, around 20 %, it's possible that the Gap between female Indigenous and non-Indigenous commencements may be very small these days, perhaps zero.

In fact, Indigenous women are commencing university studies at higher rates than Australian non-Indigenous men.

Historically, in Australia, higher education was at first reserved in practice for children of the upper classes (up until the War); then the middle class (up to the sixties); then the working class (from the late fifties); then, Indigenous people generally as they moved into the cities from the sixties onwards, from the eighties and nineties.

Of course, here have been Indigenous tertiary graduates, mainly in teaching and nursing, since the forties.

Why are Indigenous women participating at universities at much higher rates than men ? Is it because Indigenous males coming through secondary schooling, tend not to have the STEM background needed for many male-stereoptyped courses AND are reluctant to enrol in stereotypically female courses such as teaching and nursing ? Hopefully, that 'Gap' will close as far more Indigenous students, male and female, finish Year 12.

But let's remember that the great majority of Indigenous university students and graduates are from the cities: they have been born there and will probably live their lives there. They don't have any particular links to remote populations - after all, not all Indigenous people are the same. So, strictly speaking, they have no more obligation to go out to remote settlements than anybody else.

Joe

Why are Indigenous women participating at universities at much higher rates than men ?
Loudmouth2,
traditionally, in indigenous culture women did/do most of the work ! I'd imagine the same applies to learning !

Hi Individual,

Good point ! I suppose that something similar occurred in those very few regions of the world (the Middle East, Mexico, north China) where societies moved from hunting and gathering, to farming - that, after all, vegetable products are women's business, men are so involved with more important things like hunting and serious religious business.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi there Joe,

Big Nana, didn't agree with your view of the CDEP scheme, I had nothing at all to say about that particular scheme, so she deflected the criticisms to me. These conservative Abbottish government schemes using the big stick approach, regardless as to whom they are directed at, white, black, brindle, are doomed to failure, as the "recipients" often just don't have the inbuilt resources and motivation to comply.

When you say; "CDEP/CDP. It may have worked (or may be working) elsewhere but not positively down this way." Is that a gut feeling of yours or do you have some evidence to back the claim up.

BTW; A good friend of ours, her job is to type up doctors reports at a large Sydney hospital. In her time she most likely has typed up tens of thousands of pages, just like you. Would I have her operate on me given her vast typing experience, NO, definitely not. Like you, a great typists, but expert in the field, No way!

When I said, there was an attempt to breed Aboriginals out, you said bloody nonsense, so I said O. A. Neville, who blew your bloody nonsense out of the water. Did you forget about Neville, then again he wasn't all that active with the 5% of Aboriginals in South Australia was he.

Paulo,

After he retired, Neville was one of the initiators of the Coolbaroo Club in Perth, bringing together Aboriginal people working in the city. The grandmother of a dear friend was one of those involved, later she worked with my mum as cleaners at the Darwin Hospital. If the aim of the Club was to get young Aboriginal people to mix with and marry non-Aboriginal people, I don't know if it worked, but certainly many Aboriginal people met their Aboriginal partners here. Hence my dear friend :)

When Neville died a few years later in 1950, a thousand Aboriginal people attended his funeral.

It's also overlooked that for the duration of his tenure as Protector between 1915 and 1945, Neville was often the only employee of the Native Welfare Department (a.k.a. other names). For the first decade of that time, he was the only employee, then split the State with another bloke who had responsibility for the North. From around 1935, Neville also had a typist/clerk based in Perth to help him. So three employees.

But what do I know, I know only of South Australia.

Joe

"CDEP/CDP. It may have worked (or may be working) elsewhere but not positively down this way.
Paul1405,
it's sort of working elsewhere because there aren't do-gooders indoctrinating the CDEP participants.
CDEP was a good idea until bureaucrats saw an opportunity & hijacked it as they do with most schemes that are supposed to be helping people to become part of the local economy.

Hi Joe,

You have unlike many of our fellow citizens made an effort to understand the plight of Aboriginal people. The answer to the problems does lie in education leading to equal opportunity, and hopefully one day with the barriers of the past removed Aboriginal people will without discrimination take their rightful place in the modern Australian society. This report has once more highlighted the inequality in the lives of many. Its not a question of money, but more a question of how its used to benefit those who need it the most.

Its not a question of money, but more a question of how its used to benefit those who need it the most.
Paul1405,
I totally agree. Disinterested bureaucrats & disinterested indigenous should not receive what's meant for those who want to make things better !

I would go somewhere in between.

While there is a responsibility on the government to close the gap, there is equally a responsibility on the aboriginal communities to take the actions necessary.

Paul, you keep making the comment about “ breeding out the colour”. I am unsure of exactly what was done to ensure this happened. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
I do know that many many aboriginal women chose white partners over black ones. It was common in both the NT and W.A. to see full blood women living with white men. When I asked my husband why, he explained that tribal women were treated better by white men, than by their black partners. One of his old grannies had once had a white partner for many years, till he died, and they had two children. Ultimately she had two black husbands and the one white one. When I asked her how the white one had treated her, the response was “ he was the best man I ever had. He give me clean blanket to sleep on at night and never beat me”.
Relationships these days have moved well past the sleeping on blankets in the bush stage but the census shows that over 70% of aboriginal people have non aboriginal partners, so the breeding out has long been a personal choice.

Big Nana,
Yes ! Thank you for telling it as it was !

Big Nanna, I was quoting O. A. Neville, Chief Protector in Western Australia from 1915 to 1940. (He said) He could do nothing for Aborigines, who were dying out, but he could absorb the "half-castes":

Indigenous people the world over, as a pure race are a rarity, as they tend to interbreed with the conquerors, who dominate in numbers and material wealth,is that not obvious to you. And in all fairness not all the newcomers are bad people, some make for good partners etc etc.

Paul,

What's your point ? So you don't think people should be able to make choices, in the context of all of the opportunities and constraints facing them ?

Black should marry black, white should marry white - is that it ? Interesting - in South Africa, former President de Klerk has just been rightly chastised for defending Apartheid. i.e. a closed and segregated society.

But democratic societies are (or should be) open, inclusive societies - people can marry or mix with who they like. And yes, it means that future generations will have multiple ancestries, with (along the lines of Darwin's principle of 'hybrid vigour') increasingly beautiful children. I'm 100 % for it. Where do you stand ?

Joe

people can marry or mix with who they like.
Loudmouth2,
I extend this right to pulling one's weight in society !

Individual,

Everybody should have the right to marry whoever they like, provided they are over-age and unmarried.

And everybody should pull their weight.

The two notions are not necessarily connected, nor should they be.

Joe

The two notions are not necessarily connected,
Loudmouth2,
I beg to differ because they do make a difference when it comes to benefits & entitlements.

Individual,

How's that ? Are you suggesting that marriage can only be permitted between people who have been certified as 'pulling their weight' ?

That some people - if they express an interest in mixing ewth or marrying someone from a different group - should be subjected to a sort of sort of Good Behaviour Scale ?

That the Good-Behaviour and Pulling-Your-Weight Police should have rights to pull people over to check their GB/PYW record ?

Can you please join the dots between the two different issues ? Does it apply to people who do 'the right thing' from a racist point of view and stick 'to their own' or are they exempt ?

Or are you suggesting that, in a general sense, no matter who people mix with, or whatever they do, that they all pull their weight ? That if anybody wants some sort of benefit from any public funding, then they should be adhering to reasonable behavioural criteria ?

Joe

Loudmouth2,
I think you know full well what I'm on about but you choose to act ignorant. Benefits are not the reason people get together however, benefits are a major factor if one partner is Australian indigenous male !
By saying "pulling their own weight" I'm not targeting mixed race marriage, I'm on about anyone & bureaucrats in particular who allow many not to pull their weight !

Hi Joe, totally agree, people, all people, should have the right to choose in this modern world of ours. Unfortunately to often choice is limited by circumstance. I am happy for Australia to be a multicultural society. In the past Aboriginal people were not free to choose,and you know that, they were dictated to by white controllers. All aspects of their lives were carefully orchestrated by these white masters. Some today prefer not to remember the past, it being to painful, or simply best forgotten. Where do you stand on these things Joe? I say we should not dwell in the past, and make ourselves unable to move on, but the past should not be dismissed, or forgotten, or revised, it should be totally truthful, no matter how unpalatable for some it may be. But we must keep in mind that the future lies ahead of us, and work for a better outcome for all. Would you not agree?

Paul,

You assert,

" .... In the past Aboriginal people were not free to choose,and you know that, they were dictated to by white controllers. All aspects of their lives were carefully orchestrated by these white masters. "

With one and two employees in the various States' Native Welfare or Aboriginal Affairs Departments, and often only a single staff member on many Missions, I'm not so sure about the careful orchestration of people's lives. i think people did whatever they damn well felt like and could do within very broad constraints, far more than the current Narrative would portray it.

Yes indeed, we all do need to be constantly seeking out the truth, looking for evidence, rather than seizing on any convenient yarn or gripe. And at least part of what might be seen as evidence is in those thousands of pages of written documents - UNLESS what they attest to can be contradicted by better evidence.

I've knocked around Indigenous affairs for long enough to have learnt to be circumspect, at least, about any assertion which is neither backed up by anything whatsoever or is too implausible to ring true. Indigenous people tend not to value evidence, believing that genuine evidence has been suppressed and anyway where would you begin to look, so they are subject to believing unproven assertions - a sort of self-reinforcing loop of disbelief and belief.

Actual documentation breaks that down somewhat: in SA at least, Aboriginal people WERE able to move wherever they liked, with free travel passes for legitimate business. They WERE provided not only with rations but with boats and guns. No Mission ever had a people-proof fence round it. Nobody in SA was ever 'rounded up' and 'herded onto a Mission'. People were provided with free education and health services decades, even a century, before that became common-place in SA.

That knowledge has to be built into our understanding of history. At least in SA.

Joe

they were dictated to by white controllers.
Loudmouth2
And, before the white controllers they under the thumb of the tribe next door & vice versa !