Neither side is happy with the Morrison's governments draft Religious Discrimination Act. The prime minister has announced the government will return to the drawing board in an attempt to "get it right". Religious groups have slammed the proposed laws as not doing enough to protect religious freedoms. Whilst human rights and LGBTI groups, employer bodies and state anti-discrimination commissions are also all opposed to the bill, believing it gives too much freedom for the religious to discriminate Former high court justice, Michael Kirby, has warned that the “unbalanced” law will see a rise in both religious intolerance and anti-religious hostility.

The chief executive of Anglicare, Paul McDonald, I think sums it up well; “But we cannot support a law that creates one model of protection for people of faith and a lesser model of protection for all other Australians.” Can the government create a law that is balanced for both sides. A law that gives the religious the right to preach their beliefs as they affect others, and at the same time protect minorities and the non-religious from discrimination by the religious.

Let religions be, just keep them out of schools & policy making & take them off the streets !

It might be just coincidence, of course, but since Christianity was 'taken out' of things, particularly state schools, things have rapidly gone backwards in Western countries.

But, religious discrimination protection should be dropped, and the government should be restoring or shoring up freedom of speech for ALL.

I agree indy!
Time will tell but in the end it is my view this bill will bring more harm than good
Too I believe it will ignore me, a not believer, do I have rights
Three how many know the bill is for every faith do we all want some pests knocking on our door because they have the right to?
Rarely knock here told them a dozen times but they got the message
What rights will be used against us by this bill?

The whole concept of "anti-discrimination" is fundamentally wrong.
I definitely do not support adding another dimension to it.

I just hope our present federal Govt has more sense than to get embroiled in such senseless debates !
There are literally thousands of people out there not knowing how to go on with life with so much crap thrown at them by our army of parasitic bureaucrats & here the Govt is lining up for wasting another several million Dollars on something that may or may not be based on something that may or may not be real ?
Get real !

"The whole concept of "anti-discrimination" is fundamentally wrong." Yuyutsu, does that indicate your support for discrimination? Blacks to the back of the bus, coloureds not served here etc!

Dear Paul,

Discrimination (Viveka in Sanskrit) is a very important faculty as it distinguishes man from animals and allows us to choose good over evil and tell truth from untruth!

Now this is not probably what you meant, rather it seems that you use "discrimination" in its modern/pejorative sense of treating those who are different badly. Well, I do not support treating others badly, whether they be similar or different.

As for your idea of placing blacks in the back of the bus, or of not serving coloureds, I find it utterly foolish to do so, in fact it actually shows a LACK of discrimination, yet being a fool should not be illegal. Given that you are the private owner of the bus or shop and receive no public funds/benefits, it is your right to set the rules within your own premises. If you set stupid rules, then you would become everyone's laughing stock and nobody will come to you so you will not get any customers, but well, if that's what you want...

Also, requiring someone to serve another against their will is a form of slavery - surely you don't want that?!

You don't owe anybody a service, but they do not owe you a payment either.

Religion is evil !

I warned Paul, in another thread this law needs very careful consideration
It may be a dreadful out come
Glad it is not my job to draft it
Indy well not going to say you are wrong, in fact you know my view
But, unless this bill is much better than just giving followers rights we not believers do not have it will harm every faith

"You don't owe anybody a service, but they do not owe you a payment either." In a cohesively mutual society you do. The idea that everyone can run their own race when it suits, and then take advantage of the collective when that suits is not possible, you are either in, or you're out.

'Religion is evil !'

Amazing you even have a concept of evil Individual. I wonder where that came from.

Dear Paul,

«In a cohesively mutual society you do»

Thank God we are not in China!

«take advantage of the collective»

Acquiring a human body is so rare, we got where we are now perhaps after trillions upon trillions of births and untold sufferings, which probably included several lifetimes as ants or bees and the like, but we are over it now. Being here as humans with the free will that goes with it, each soul is in a different situation in its evolution and requires a different path with different conscious efforts to purify itself and complete this last part of its journey - how crazy would it be to waste this precious life on running a collective?!

«The idea that everyone can run their own race»

As humans, having gained this rare opportunity, everyone MUST run their own last segment of the race to God.

I wonder where that came from.
runner,
I read about the Crusades, ISIS, the Holocaust, choir boys, religious schools etc etc.
That's where it came from ! Oh and, yes millions of children starving because the religious zealots won't agree to birth control. If I remember correctly you're one of them !

'I read about the Crusades, ISIS, the Holocaust, choir boys, religious schools etc etc.'

ok then whats your excuse?

runner,
Sorry, forgot to mention hypocrisy also ! There now, it's not looking like an excuse anymore ok ?

'runner,
Sorry, forgot to mention hypocrisy also ! There now, it's not looking like an excuse anymore ok ?'

certainly ignorance at best.

runner,
If there is a God, I don't think he'd want anything to do with the likes of you ! At least I couldn't blame him !

'runner,
If there is a God, I don't think he'd want anything to do with the likes of you ! At least I couldn't blame him !

Agreed amazing His grace extends that far.

We need an Act that stops Religion discriminating against us !

To Individual

You said "we need an act to protect religous discrimination against us."

Two questions.

1) Who are you referring to when you say "us?"
2) How have you been discriminated against by religions?

If there's been any actual harm, then let's have it in the open and deal with the matter. See if the matter can be held up, is justified, or can be resolved so it doesn't happen again.

Not_Now.Soon,
By 'us" I'm obviously referring to normal, not indoctrinated people who think for themselves.
By discriminated by Religion I obviously refer to those whose lives are ruined by religious dictation such as divorce & birth control & the millions of dead left on battle fields.

Dear Individual,

Being normal in this day and age is not something to be proud of, nor is being uneducated in the ways of God. Thinking for oneself is great indeed, if one can be the master of his/her own thoughts rather than allow them to move to and fro at the whim and command of one's senses, passions and emotions.

Living as an animal anyway, who cares whether you marry or divorce?
If you practice birth control then the world can only be relieved for not being infested further by more of these normal/ignorant/uncontrolled little monsters.

Fewer than ever are currently dying on battlefields, not even one million so far this century, the highest numbers being in Syria at the hands of the Assad secular regime. Nevertheless, what would it matter whether the walking-dead that follow the current empty norms die before or after spending a lifetime going in circles without direction?

The proposed act should be dropped, in my view. The more I read what people who actually know what they are talking about say, the more convinced I become that the people supposedly protected will be worse off. Those people are Christians, who won't be whining about discrimination. It's all for the alien religion of Islam. Muslims will certainly be whining and complaining. They are life's natural victims; and they would be using the act to stifle criticism of their abominable beliefs.

To Individual.

Ruined by divorce, birth control, and dead on battle fields? That doesn't sound like religous discrimination to me. It doesn't sound like anything that religion is responsible for either. More like a scape goat excuse for each of those issues.

On the other hand I could be wrong. Why don't you say how it's ruined your life? You are including yourself in all of this aren't you? Has religion and divorce ruined you? Or are you complaining about things exaggerated? That seems to happen often in points against some religions. (Others it's not an exaggeration but is too common in that religion or another).

Not_Now.Soon,
Religion interferes with the daily life of the many non-superstitious ! Why, the clear thinkers are even forced to swear on bibles & koran etc.
The buildings dedicated to superstition have money spent on them which could could help many of those they religious claim to have so much compassion for. How many poor are walking past churches every minute of the day, what help do they receive whilst some high priests enjoy undeserved adoration & respect ? How many abused children never got Justice ? How many young girls had their life ruined because some selfish gits joined up to control the lives of others ?
What have YOU done recently to help make us a more compassionate society ? Pray ??

To Individual.

I get what you're saying. Your saying you don't agree with the religions that are around. But that doesn't sound like it's discrimination to me. Whether they spend money on their buildings is not a matter of discrimination, regardless if you agree with it or not. Same goes with swearing on the bible or the Quran. That's a cultural thing basically if enough people believe in either of those two religions. But what you've described is neither an invasive thing, nor is it an exclusive discriminatory thing.

All your saying is that you don't like religion and don't think it should be as supported as it is. Not that religion has discriminated against you or against the non-believing population.

If I'm wrong and you are saying this is discrimination, then go back to examples that are discriminatory instead of just elements you don't like but are in society. People aren't going to change their lifestyle because a group of people disrespect their beliefs calling it superstitious and don't want it out in the open. That sounds like an unfair expectation that you wouldn't expect of yourself if the roles were reversed.

For example, if I disrespected your views (instead of "superstitious" let's say "godless" or "shallow" or any other negative label regardless if it's true or not); then said you should not openly be the way you are; would you then say that you are discriminating against me or the other way around? (I'd say it was rude, but has no merit on playing the victim card of discrimination).

(Continued)

(Continued)

That's basically how your perspective reads. You're being discriminated against because superstitious people are allowed to be superstitious. That's not discrimination. That's people doing their own thing, and maybe being a big enough group that it affects you too.

Here's what discrimination would look like to me. If I say you can't shop here or there because your not religious or limits your opportunities for school or specialized professions, then that would be discrimination. And that is unjustified and oppressive.

If I said you can't come into a church, mosque, or religous temple, because your not that religion, then that would be discrimination. But depending on the gathering it might be justifiable at least arguably to have gatherings of just that religion. However I think the religions that aren't welcoming are more rare then the secular counterparts that really are discriminating needing to pass x, y, and z conditions before they can be be part of that group and attend their meetings, get togethers, and fun.

More often then not I see religions are inclusive, not exclusive.

Not_Now.Soon,
Very well written. However, still only mere words. My argument extends to actual evidence for all to see over generations. Yes, you did a very good job of dissecting the word discrimination yet the facts remain that Religion or rather the hypocrites who exploit Religion are discriminating against those over whom they hold control by telling them to believe something that can't at this stage not be proven to exist.
You may not call it discrimination, I do !

Dear Individual,

«Religion interferes with the daily life»

I see, you may complain that your religious neighbours disturb your sleep when they start their car on Sunday morning to go to church, but then when you start your car early to go the beach, that cannot count as an interference... You know, having squeezed so many humans on our little planet, practically everyone is interfering with everyone else. Do you really think that had your neighbours not gone to church on Sunday morning, they would instead just stay quietly in bed rather than, say, mowed their loan or drilled holes in their wall for new furniture?

«the clear thinkers are even forced to swear on bibles & koran etc.»

Not in Australia.

«The buildings dedicated to superstition have money spent on them»

The biggest and most ridiculous superstition is as if entertainment and intoxication can make one truly happy. So speaking about theaters, cinemas, bars, clubs, casinos, TV stations and the like, they all have money spent or them - how about compassionately selling off these buildings and donating the proceeds to the poor?

«Religion or rather the hypocrites who exploit Religion are discriminating against those over whom they hold control»

The said hypocrites are not religious, they are pretenders.
Would I be right to blame you if someone stole your login-details here and posted atrocious things under the pen-name "Individual"?

and posted atrocious things under the pen-name "Individual"?
Yuyutsu,
Nothing would surprise me with those types ! Deceit is in their DNA.

Dear Individual,

«Nothing would surprise me with those types ! Deceit is in their DNA.»

In that case they are not religious, they do not even consider the possibility of God watching them and knowing thoroughly all the deceit within their hearts - then why blame religion for evils done by the non-religious?!

To Individual.

My intent isn't to dissect discrimination away from religion, if it's really there. If it's there, (or if there's any other harmful complaint), then taking that matter is worth it in my opinion to gauge if it really is harmful. See if there's any excuse for it; or assuming it is harmful and without excuse can it be resolved and changed.

In my opinion religion for the most part isn't discriminatory. The only exceptions that I can think of where it is is with Mormon churches, (because only fellow Mormons are allowed to come to the church services), and Scientology, (because you have to pay to be part of it, it's not voluntary from what I understand).

(Continued)

(Continued)

You said:

< yet the facts remain that Religion or rather the hypocrites who exploit Religion are discriminating against those over whom they hold control by telling them to believe something that can't at this stage not be proven to exist. >

I don't think you mean discrimination against nonbelievers in this case, but either manipulation of believers of a religion from it's leaders (best case argument), or that religious people are being coerced to believe something that can't be proven (a much weaker argument that goes into the issue of do people have the right to their own beliefs or do they all have to be proven).

If neither of those two arguments are what you mean, let me know. It still sounds like you are just mad at religion for being there and getting in your way in life. (Just the vibe I'm reading, that's not a quote from you). The problem with that kind of stance is that it leans heavily on whether someone else can believe what they believe or if that right should be removed.

As long as there's no actual harm being done (such as terrorist attacks in Islam, fraud in Scientology, or arguably some overbearing emotional abuse from any religion), as long as there's no actual harm then no one should have the right to say "you can't believe that because it offends me. It gets in the way of my daily life."

As far as I can tell there's more abuse that comes from employers then there is from church leaders. I can't speak for other religions because I don't know their situations, but at least for Christian religion there's not as much exploitation among the believers as there are exploitation among bosses who say "mandatory overtime tomorrow." Even that I wouldn't call exploitation. Church leaders on the other hand seem to care about the people in their pews. At least that's my observation.

The religious had 2000 years to rewrite everything, hence their explanations always appear valid !

Dear Individual,

The religious had all the time since writing began to document what works and what does not. Prior to that, knowledge was transmitted orally - religion existed before writing was invented, before humans existed, before the world was created even, there is no sense in existence otherwise.

The difficulty exists to ascertain which books/chapters were indeed written by the religious and which by cheating hypocrites.

Can I pop my head up?
This new bill, will it give me the right to not believe any God ever existed?
If not why not?
We are told thirty percent mark no religion on their poll papers do we then have rights?

Say as much as cults?

Yuyutsu,
where is the sense in creating us as we are & then ask us to curb our desires at every turn ?
For 2000 years now we've been told that the bad will be dealt with. Why does God tolerate so much bad ?

Dear Belly,

«This new bill, will it give me the right to not believe any God ever existed?»

No bill in the world can give you something that you already have!

---

Dear Individual,

«where is the sense in creating us as we are & then ask us to curb our desires at every turn?»

Excellent question.

Desires do not attack you all at once or by accident, nor are you created with them - you need to dwell on a particular thought for a while and nourish it a number of times before it grows into a desire. When still small it is very easy to shrug off a desire, but the longer you nourish it, it becomes more sticky and painful to remove.

Desires have consequences: if you fail to fulfill them you become angry, then you become upset and lose your balance, subsequently your memory and intellect falter, betray you and you face a great fall.

You are not required to curb all your desires and certainly not at every turn, but watch out before they turn into anger. Also watch out not to try to fulfill your desires at the expense of others, that too will give you pain. There are valid ways to fulfill desires, but for that you need patience and wisdom. Asking for God's help is useful for gaining the necessary patience and wisdom.

«For 2000 years now we've been told that the bad will be dealt with.»

This is declared in the Hindu tradition for much longer than 2000 years because the bad are indeed being dealt with, whether in their current or in subsequent lifetimes. Actually it's the bad, by their own conscience, rather than God, who deal themselves miserable circumstances.

«Why does God tolerate so much bad ?»

Only that much that you can handle.
Pain is a necessary ingredient in motivating us to grow. You cannot do completely without it, but the wise can minimize it. Everyone (belief in God's existence is not required) can shelter in God and ask for the wisdom to minimize the pain.

The new bill is a wreck looking for its rock
We do not even know what it says, but we know the people behind it Morrison in my view is no Christian
Any bill to give religious rights gives rights too to Scientoledgy, to those cults that claim to be Churches
To Islamic faith and jewish, trying to protect all these, without harming someone is hard work
No joy in saying this, but a truth the Roman Catholic Church, is hideing and protecting pedophils
My childhood in a strong Christian home [not Catholic] saw me consider them Super Christians
How did the Christ I once loved become a Conservative?
How does millionaire Churches like the Prime Ministers, forget Christs love for the poor

How did the Christ I once loved become a Conservative?
Belly,
Are you surprised considering what the Progressives did to him ?

Trump is certainly no Christ like figure. The democrats however very much resemble Judas Iscariot. They are they biggest corruptors of power that America has seen.

Indy old mate take the medicine please
It is another post, and from a non believer like me, that misses the point may ever be from the wrong paddock
See my Christ loved the poor told us we are all important to him
Catholics once at least told us that
But if Christ existed and came back it would be the money launderers and fraudsters in his Church he would throw out

But if Christ existed and came back it would be the money launderers and fraudsters in his Church he would throw out
Belly,
That's what I've been saying all along & not only those in Churches, politicians & business people & entrepreneurs also.
If there really is a God then how come we don't have a Flat tax ?

We have a problem indy, we desperately need a national ICAC call it the FBI if you wish
But if they had the right power politicians on every side, would be the first arrested
That is why we do not have one
Churches just in yours and my lifetime have followed the American hillbilly fraudulent money making formula

In some of today's newspapers there was a little item about a couple who won a ham at their local RSL then rang a Uber car to take them home.
The driver was Muslim and refused to have a ham in his car, which is fair enough but the couple was then charged $10 Cancellation fee.

Now that doesn't seem fair at all as they didn't do the cancelling.

Issy, is not religion stupid? BTW I just walked backwards 3 times around the wife whilst chanting "I divorce thee!, I divorce thee!, I divorce thee!" religion has its advantages. Bloody Xmas decorations! That will teach her to pull all that junk out on the sabbath.

BTW I told her there was a commandment that covered that sort of thing. Can you help me out? Is it number 427 by chance.

Brave stuff brother! she should have knocked you down on pass one, women in my life would have