Not sure this one will get a run, hope it does but will understand [always do] if it is no
Gets a bit hard here, most, nearly all, of us think fake news is real
We differ on what side is using it
Both do
Never in doubt, but it remains my view it is an invention of the right
We need to ask ourselves this *what do they [both sides] think of us*?
They KNOW we forget to watch the truth being rolled up and ditched as more and more truly fake news takes over
We [both sides] seem to me to be the Eskimos buying that refrigerator

Dear Belly,

Political figures like President Trump,
the Philippine President, and even the
Burmese military routinely use the term -
"Fake News" to dismiss allegations of
injustices in their administration.

It's no wonder some people are finding it
harder to tell fact from fiction and are liable
to internalize false beliefs that cause social unrest
with far-reaching consequences. Fake news is a
powerful tool for pushing false political agenda and
mud-slinging.

What we need to do is hold online platforms accountable
for fact-checking and implementing messages to warn users
about potentially malicious content. And we as consumers
must also be aware of the content we are reading and
sharing. Fake news has become a vehicle for mud-slinging
and smear campaigns - a phenomenon now echoed in politics
all around the world.

That's why fact-checking is so important.

Foxy very true every word
Think it has always existed but America brought it home from Adolf Hitler's main man
It says something about us, fact is it is willingly taken as fact by far too many
My research into ww2 often leaves me stunned that Germans brought the lies about Jews
Never thought in my lifetime America would be so deep in to it
Others will not agree but we all are weaker for not knowing what is true and what is not
Currently the social media is full of the greens did it, in relation to the firestorms , not dry winters and the danger stopping winter burns, escaping fires

OK we are not going to talk about it, we are pretending it is those on the others side who are victims
In doing that we clearly are saying the very real drop off in standards of politics is ok
OK the lie ok not to have true policies to get things done just use fake news to win elections
The Sky/Fox fan club in existence here will never avoid this truth Trump has only one defense fake news
His only defense is saying truth is fake news
I know a future spotlight will unmask today's fake news
Politicians could do well to renew the Westminster system of accountability

Fake News is not only used by the Right, it also is in other journalism. Here's an example:

Australian comedian and host of Triple M Sydney’s breakfast program Lawrence Mooney said Court’s attitude towards gay people has no place in society.

“You can’t use ‘her views are popular’ and ‘she has a right to use them’ to be homophobic, you just can’t be,” Mooney told Channel 9’s Today program.

“And if you’re homophobic there’s no space for you in public life.

“Discriminating about sexuality is a crime, so it is legislated against.

“Margaret Court’s opinions on same sex marriage and sexuality are abhorrent and she should be hounded out of the sport until she falls into line.

“It’s absolutely abhorrent.

“Margie, catch up to 2019.

“Margaret Court needs to stop discriminating against people”, http://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/australia-reacts-to-tennis-legend-margaret-courts-callout-of-tennis-australia/news-story/80029e76a08b4e94425bd1b53d714f7d

In spite of Mooney's tirade against Margaret Court, she has clearly stated she is NOT homophobic: 'Asked if her opposition to same-sex marriage was discriminatory, Court said she "loved homosexuals. I love them, I have them in the church here,"’, http://7news.com.au/sport/tennis/i-have-nothing-against-homosexuals-margaret-court-defends-views-on-gay-marriage-c-545514

Fake news is 'false, often sensational, information disseminated under the guise of news reporting' (Collins Dictionary 2019. s.v. fake news).
Why does Margaret Court refuse to support homosexual marriage? She has told us her support is for the Bible's teaching: ‘my belief as a Christian is marriage the Bible way’, http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/31/margaret-court-tennis-reaction-same-sex-marriage-opposition-is-bullying

This teaching comes from the lips of Jesus Christ in a passage such as Matthew 19:4-6, which includes the statement, ‘A man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife'.

It does not say he will be joined (sexually) with another male. Margaret Court is correct in affirming the biblical view of sexuality in marriage. She is not homophobic but a promoter of God's view, heterosexuality.

Lawrence Mooney's verbal assault on Margaret Court's views is fake news because Margaret Court supports the Bible's teaching on heterosexuality (and thus opposed to homosexual marriage). Court's position DOES NOT amount to homophobia.

OZ Spen I voted for their right to wed, not their right to make the practice mandatory
That said I FIRMLY, think Court and every Church, needs to stay out of our bed
No God ever existed , but if our one did he may have things to say about increasing bitterness said using his name
The question is, of all of us, are we guilty of bringing fake news to life by constantly letting it make up our minds? instead of thinking for ourselves?
Front page right now, only on the subject of Trump, warns fake news is in use

Belly,

<<No God ever existed>>

That's your opinion! Your assertion!

You haven't proved it with evidence.

If I took your approach, I could state: 'Belly doesn't know what he/she is talking about in regard to the existence of God'.

From the opinion you've given, I'm safe in saying you have made an assertion about God without proof.

Margaret Court is entitled to her opinion.
As are those who disagree with her. And disagreeing
with her views is not Fake News. Nor is pointing
out her actions and behavior that she has CHOSEN
to express using the Bible. There are many things
in the Bible that we would not take literally today.

For example:

St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, when the great Saint
says: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority
over a man, she must be silent."

Or - Ephesians 5:22 - "Wives, submit to your husbands as to
the Lord."

Or 1 Corinthians 11: 3-10 "The Lord of every man is Christ
and the head of the woman is man ... For man did not come
from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for
women, but women for man."

I trust you see the point.

Margaret Court is asking for equality and inclusion but
for her to ask for equality when it goes against the teachings
of the very Bible she uses to trash gays is ... problematic.
Of course she may find it hard when people criticise her
and ignore her achievements in tennis simply because they
don't like the views she has CHOSEN to express.
But that might be how gays feel when she discounts and criticises them.

The alternative to having no tolerance for intolerance is to
tolerate it. In which case nothing would change. And most
of us - are changing in tune with the world.

OzSpen,

Belly has a right to his opinion, he's not necessarily religio-phobic :)

By the same logic, Margaret Court has a right to hers, and she's not necessarily homophobic.

It's called 'freedom of belief', and 'freedom of opinion'. And 'freedom of speech'.

Joe

We can't expect special treatment and compensations
for whatever reasons - if we're not prepared to extend
that same courtesy to others.

Clearest examples if fake news recently

1. Russian Collusion (years of no evidence and lies)
2. Jussie Smollet
3. Covington school kids

abc specialises in fake news. When fakeness is uncovered they just move on the next story they think will justify very sick narratives.

All men commit dv.
All women to be believed (just ask Christine Blassey Ford)
All white men are racist (except those agreeing with toxic feminism)
All religions are equal except Christianity which is 'wicked'
You can claim to be Indigeneous as long as you hate the British
Coal is wicked but adultery and homosexuality is good.

yeah fake news everyday at tax payer expense

Runner so you think fake news exists, but comes from my side of the fence always
OZ SPEN this very much ex Christian knows your book cover to cover, just no longer believes it
Child molesters in most Churches
Current America right of reality Churches stacking money but not feeding or caring for the poor
Islamic state a purely evil group thinking it is in the service of a God
Tell me what apart from faith brings humans to kill each other in war
Fake news may have started with the first Holy book

If you want to complain about 'Fake news', maybe the first thing you should do is define it.

Sensationalised headlines designed for sales and profit.

Deliberately false, misleading or bias opinions or statements that are written with an intention to make up the readers mind for them on any particular topic, as opposed to informing the reader on all the facts of said issue and allowing the reader to make their mind up for themselves.

90% of all news is propaganda, and political correctness or some kind of unspoken rules have made it all generic.
It's mostly narrative and conjecture for the readers benefit.
From the smallest most mundane stories to the biggest and most important stories;
Reporters calling themselves journalists, without doing any background research on a story.

I can find plenty of fake and manufactured news stories on a daily basis on the biggest geopolitical issues by the biggest news organisations; and news stories which are arguably not even news stories at all, which tell you absolutely nothing of what actually happened

Foxy,

<<Margaret Court is entitled to her opinion. As are those who disagree with her. And disagreeing with her views is not Fake News.>>

You didn't read my post carefully. I defined Fake News as 'false, often sensational, information disseminated under the guise of news reporting' (Collins Dictionary 2019. s.v. fake news). It is Fake News to call Margaret Court homophobic, which means 'having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people' (Collins Dictionary 2019. s.v. homophobic).

My post demonstrated that Margaret Court stated she loved homosexuals and has some in her church in Perth.

You cited 1 Corinthians 11:3-10; Ephesians 5:22; and 1 Timothy 2:12 to try to demonstrate Court's hypocrisies as a female preacher. These 3 examples were used by Peter FitzSimons in his article: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/dear-mrs-court-honouring-a-homophobic-zealot-is-problematic-for-us-20191108-p538rs.html

You provided zero exegesis to prove your points. Let’s examine the verses:

+ headship in marriage (1 Cor 11) has nothing to do with whether a woman should teach. In fact one of the verses in that section specifically states an example of women in ministry: 'But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head – it is the same as having her head shaved'. You provided no explanation of what 'hear head' means.

+ Ephesians 5:22 deals with a wife submitting to her husband as to the Lord and says NOTHING about a woman teaching.

+ 1 Timothy 2:12 states: 'I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent'. This verse has caused angst among exegetes for 2,000 years because of the words 'have authority', based on the Greek authentein (used only this once in the New Testament). It has the connotation ‘to domineer’ and in context probably reflects the role of women in promoting errors of the false teachers. You provided none of this information.

You excluded verses that teach differently from what you want to push against Margaret Court as a woman teacher. Elsewhere the Apostle Paul affirmed the ministry of teaching by men and women: 1 Corinthians 14:26 and Colossians 3:16-17

Dear AC,

That's why it is important to use a variety of
reputable news sources, not only from major media outlets,
but independent media sources as well -
to be able to get a more accurate picture.

And fact-checking also helps.

Armchair Critic,

<<If you want to complain about 'Fake news', maybe the first thing you should do is define it.>>

I did in, Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 16 November 2019 8:28:40 AM, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8995&page=1

Fake news is 'false, often sensational, information disseminated under the guise of news reporting' (Collins Dictionary 2019. s.v. fake news), http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fake-news

Why does Margaret Court refuse to support homosexual marriage? She has told us her support is for the Bible's teaching: ‘my belief as a Christian is marriage the Bible way’, http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/31/margaret-court-tennis-reaction-same-sex-marriage-opposition-is-bullying

OzSpen,

There are many things in the Bible that many people
would not take literally in today's world. I was
merely quoting some regarding the status of women
to make a point.

You claim that Margaret Court is not homophobic
because she said she loves homosexuals and even has
some in her church. That's commendable.
However, she does not recognise
their right to marry because marriage according to
passages quoted from the Bible tell her it's between
a man and a woman. And believing in something that
the Bible tells you - is not being homophobic, because
she actually loves homosexuals. She just does not want
them to be able to marry.

There are many passages in the Bible -
that we could find that would be questionable today
if we were to take them literally.
But - as long as we believe them - it's OK?
And if people were to call us names as a result of those
beliefs - then they're at fault, not us. Okaay.

Each to their own. None of us are to blame. We're all
entitled to our beliefs. Does that also go for those
who believe that Ms Court IS homophobic - because she
has CHOSEN to not only believe but to
express her beliefs so publicly? And also she's asking
to be treated equally by Tennis Australia while denying
equality to others?

So many interesting questions.

Doesn't the Bible also preach love, compassion, and
tolerance? Perhaps I'm reading the wrong edition?

cont'd ...

For those not in the know - being homophobic
is having or showing a dislike OR PREJUDICE
against homosexual people.

Homophobia is often rooted in conservative
religious beliefs.

Ms Court fits into that category.

Foxy,

<<Homophobia is often rooted in conservative religious beliefs. Ms Court fits into that category.>>

That's your opinion. It fails the test of ...

+ Definition of homophobia, which is a 'dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people' (Lexico.com 2019. s.v. homophobia), AND

+ Margaret Court's own statement that she loves homosexuals and has some in her church.

+ Margaret is NOT homophobic but you are promoting fake news by placing her in the homophobic category when she really is supporting the biblical teaching of heterosexual marriage.

When will you get your facts straight?

I wonder when they are going to remove statues of Martin Luther King Jnr. He believed homosexuality was a mental disorder. With the woke crowd its really about sides not principle. It seemed very much like the Clintons were very linked in with Epstein. How many flights did Bill take?

Hey OzSpen,

I read the first comments on this tread yesterday, but didn't get around to commenting until today.
And I didn't read any other comments before I placed my own comment today sorry, and yes I can see now that you have indeed tried to define it in your comment from earlier today.

I figure there's no point in finger pointing which side is committing what if we're not firstly in agreement of what 'fake news' actually is.
- So good work for trying to define it.

That's what I did, only I just wrote my own thoughts.

Regards the Collins 2019 definition of 'fake news' which you quoted;

It was similar to what I said but if I were to think more about it I don't think either the Collins definition or mine is actually either broad or definitive enough.

There's many ways to create fake news.
You don't necessarily have to lie, you can just omit certain 'unwanted facts' and emphasise other points of view to sell a completely different story than the actual one.

It can be used to play-down an unwanted story such as government or companies do with 'media liaison' and official press releases and can also be used to reinforce a particular narrative or agenda, for example supporting UN 2030 Sustainable Development Goals.

A true and accurate definition of 'fake news' would include all of these methods used to deceive us through deliberately distorted or cherry-picked facts for the purposes of making our minds up for us.

A lot of this type of mentality comes from advertising, and a knowledge of how to influence and manipulate people without them realising it.

The alt-right has been using this term for probably around a decade, so I'm well aware of its usage prior to being co-opted by Hillary, the left and the corporate media.

"Why does Margaret Court refuse to support homosexual marriage?"

I haven't mentioned her in this discussion and haven't seen the news to know what's currently going on with her.

But it seems obvious her stance is due to her religious beliefs.

Talking about fake, i have been in the buisness of printing and selling counterfeit currency,we print and sell 100% undetectable fake curreny and documents,like ID cards,Passport,Driver liecense,birth certificates and all, so lost my job with the bank 15 years ago and i thought i should utilize my knowledge, its been going well so far,i built a website and we deliver our currencies and ducuments to any part of the world, This has really helped so many people in so many ways that is unimaginable but i wanna know everyones opinion on this. No hate talk and dont judge me pls just be sincere and lets know what you all think.

What about Fake News' sister: Fake Views (every popular among those with a one dollar brain on The Forum).

Fake news, fake views and now fake currency.

So a potential forum spammer now wants to join in the forum?
Well that's kind of interesting I suppose.
I just hope your being genuine and not looking to exploit the forum and its members in some kind of long con.

- There's a certain level of trust that you may never gain here doing what you're doing -
Though I sincerely thank you for not spamming the forum.

There's many aspects to the issue you raised.
I imagine the social engineers of this world would actually be championing your efforts;
- Because the one thing that will put cash out of business for good and herald in a cashless society is counterfeit money.

You don't work for the central banks at all do you?

Stan15,

Your comments reads like fake news to me.

You have told 'a story that is presented as being a genuine item of news but is in fact not true and is intended to deceive people' (Macmillan Dictionary 2009-2019. s.v. fake news).

Of coarse, the biggest fake news story of this century, possibly any century, has been the Trump-Russia collusion story.

For the better part of three years, hardly a day went by without there being yet another story of how Trump had been compromised by Putin, how Trump won because of his Russian collusion, how Trump was repaying the favour, pissing on beds etc etc etc.

The left media ( that is, most of the media) reported from anonymous sources with supposed inside knowledge about how the latest 'revelation' was going to finally bring down Trump. And when it didn't they just moved on to the next 'revelation'. In the desire to get him, nothing was out of bounds. Truncate footage of fish feeding. Report the wrong date on documents to alter timelines.

Yet in the end, it was all made up. Mueller, much to his own chagrin, reported that none of it, NONE OF IT, was true. There was no collusion. Russia didn't alter the election. Russia didn't support Trump. Trump wasn't 'owned' by Putin or anyone else.

All fake news. Yet millions, including not a few here, utterly believed the fake news. And what happened when it was revealed as such? Was there circumspection or recanting. Was there reappraisal of the state of the media that people rely on.

Not a bit of it. The believers simply moved on to believing the next fake news story. And when it fails, they'll move on to the next.

/cont

/cont
For example, on these pages there is a thread running about 11,000 scientists. But its fake news. There were possibly as few as 50 scientists related to that story. But the believers don't care. The fake news will be believed because it fits the narrative.

That's why fake news works. Because the believers want it to be true. They care little for the facts. They care only for the story. Lies by government and leaders have been around since Sargon the Great. But this different. This is the media reporting lies as though it's truth, or making up lies itself, in the service on a political narrative and in the service of protecting the power of a particular class.

It's new and it works, because so many people aren't interested in finding the facts for themselves. They want to be told fairy-tales so long as the fairy-tales reach the right conclusion.

The only hope here is that the 'fake-newsers' are being outed and people (not those here, obviously, but elsewhere) are recognising that they've been lied to. In the US, polling shows most people hold journalists as a group in contempt. The election of Trump, and Morrison and the victory of Brexit, showed the people ignoring the fake news stories spread by the media.

Michael Crichton had a parable of a man who opens his newspaper and reads an article on a subject he's very familiar with. He realises that the article and the facts within are rubbish, all fake, all construed to make a political point. And he's disgusted by it and the people who lied.
Then he turns the page and sees a shocking article on a subject he knows nothing about. He believes every word of it. That's why we have fake news.

AC report the criminal do not give him air
So define fake news?
Ok Hitler's Germany first started its mass production, constructed lies to challenge the truth
And it worked! some even in the last day of Berlin, in the rubble hung innocents who just wanted to live, in the name of a mad demiGod
America brought it home, polished it off, waiting for someone to use it
See Sky/Fox news, see Rupert's hobby, playing monopoly with politics, powered by fake news
Now yes, some of us believe without reserve fake news exists, the other side uses it,only the other side
Fake News has robbed us all, of the once treasured truth

Dear mhaze,

You never desist, do you? Your little one dollar brain is so fixated on so-called facts that it prevents you from thinking critically. I suppose that's just the product of being ignorant and uneducated. I'm just glad it's you and not me that has a one dollar brain. I thank my lucky stars every day that I was fortunate to get a million dollar brain.

Armchair Critic,

<<But you ruined your great first comment with the second. And not to put crap on religion, but you went from logical to airy-fairy and lost that newly-found 'well-grounded' status that you'd somehow managed to find in your first comment. The topic of your comment crosses over into the 'fake news' discussion as well.>>

+ 'not to put crap on religion, you went from logical to airy-fairy'. That is fallacious reasoning. You have dumped on me an Ad Hominem (Tu quoque) Fallacy of personal inconsistency. You claimed the second part of my argument that God sends the rain is flawed. You have pointed out that the argument between first and second paragraphs is not demonstrating consistence.

However, you did put 'crap on religion' by your disparaging comment of Jesus' statement that He sends the rain.

Making such a claim, without demonstrating it is so, is erroneous reasoning. It's an Ad Hominem (Tu quoque) Fallacy, http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/11/Ad-Hominem-Tu-quoque.

You are the one demonstrating Christophobia when it comes to the source of rain, http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/christophobia.

OzSpen,

I see that your definition of "Fake News" like
Donald Trump's et al, - is anything that
challenges your beliefs and - the teachings
of your religion.

You also should realise that your Biblical teachings
were written centuries ago and interpreted by multiple
authors and were then translated into multiple
languages. And at each step the true meaning deviated
from its initial course. For example from my earlier
studies we were told that the Biblical - Anglican version,
the Roman Catholic version and the Orthodox - had
definite variations and interpretations.

Anyway, getting facts straight is a worthwhile exercise.
And I would suggest you also - try it.

cont'd ...

OzSpen,

The history of marriage is an interesting topic -
and the following link is worth a read to
get updated on the many forms of marriage that
exist today:

http://www.livescience.com/37777-history-of-marriage.html

http://www.thespruce.com/history-of-marriage-2300616

MHaze my sympathy to you you *clearly* are both a salesman for fake news and a victim of it
And in being one of both, you prove fake news works, only on some however
Trump is fake news on speed he while awaiting his inevitable downfall is ramping up his lies with tweets that give evidence of his failure as a human being
Our Canberra politicians are showing it too, on both sides saying,wait for it, this not the time to talk about climate change!
If not now when?

Regarding Russian Collusion and Mr Trump?

FBI Robert Mueller's Report according to
US media outlets laid out 10 instances where the
President obstructed justice. Mr Mueller has said
his report DID NOT exonerate the President but that
charging a sitting President was NOT an option.

US intelligence agencies have concluded in 2016 that
Russia WAS behind an effort to tip the scales of the
US election against Hilary Clinton with a STATE authorised
campaign of cyber attacks and fake news stories planted
on social media.

At least 17 Trump associates had contacts with Russians
and Wikileaks which released hacked documents during the
campaign according to an analysis of public records
by the New York Times - with at least 100 face-to-face
inter actions, phone calls and electronic messages with
Russians or Kremlin-linked figures and at least 51
individual communications.

Trump aides known to have had contact with Russians include
the US President's son-in-law and adviser Jared Kushner, the
President's son - Donald Trump Jr, former
National Security Adviser - Michael Flynn,
Attorney General Jeff Sessions and
former personal lawyer Michael Cohen.

The special counsl had indicted more than 30 people including
4 members of Mr Trump's campaign team or administration, an
adviser and long-time ally, and 26 Russians as well as 3
Russian companies.

Dear Foxy,

Do you think it's looking like Trump's associates are heading to prison and that Trump might end up in the cell as well if he doesn't resign. It happened to Nixon, and Trump is definitely no Nixon when it comes to comparing statesmen. In fact, Trump is the weirdest president in US history.

Dear Foxy,

Yes, Trump is a moron, a crook, a bully, a narcissist and so much worse, and those would be his good points.

But he'll never be impeached by the current Senate. If I were Pelosi or Schiff, I would rush through the current impeachment procedures, lose in the Senate and move on, well before the next year's primaries. Those charges can wait.

And for god's sake, look around for centrist candidates: extremists on either the right or left won't win it for the democrats. The art of democratic politics is to, by hook or by crook, win over the middle 55-60 %, and they surely know they won't be able to do that with Sanders or Warren.

If they don't put up a strong centrist candidate, Trump will still be president five years from now.

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Mr Opinion,

I can't really predict what the US President
will be forced to do. I doubt if he will
resign on his own or to cut a deal to save any
of his family members. He's not that kind of a bloke.
He's out for himself - first and foremost.
And will only cut a deal to save himself. The rest
can go jump. So he's in for the long haul.
The only thing would be if the American people vote
him out at the next election. But I'd hate to
predict the chances of that happening.

Still who knows?

TRUMPPHOBIA and Trump derangement is very much alive. Very flawed man who is by far the best President America has had for a very very long time.

Runner my thanks, your posts, measured with your overall opinion shown here highlights a common Trump supporter theme
An inability to see the man you worship for what he is
TRUMPPOBIA a fake word again aimed at a never existed group, to confuse and hide the truth
Your confusion can be explained but we have not got the time
Trump will fall, much like water from a burst dam his true actions while POTUS will be revealed, by his closest supporters and defenders
The next week will be telling
He will face the senate, and not be impeached
He may be re elected but it seems unlikely in the extreme
See Runners sufferers of TRUMPPOBIA are growing fast

Dear Foxy,

I'm of the opinion that the American political system might make an example of him and not let him off the same way it did with Nixon. He could be doing time.

Dear Mr Opinion,

You're right regarding Mr Trump and doing time.

I've been doing so more reading and Mueller made a
point to note that the US President does "not have
immunity after he leaves office. "even if he is forced
out of office through impeachment."

"A possible remedy through impeachment for abuses of
power would not substitute for potential criminal
liability after a President leaves office," Mueller wrote.

The Washington Post reported that 370 federal prosecutors
who worked in both Republican and Democratic Administrations
have signed a statement arguing that Trump would have
been charged with obstruction of justice were he not the
President.

Though Trump's crimes are obvious working in his favour
is the five year statute of limitations for campaign finance
obstruction of justice charges. Meaning he'll be in the
clear if he wins re-election next November.

If he loses - Trump will be just as open to legal jeopardy
as his personal lawyer and others have been.

One can only hope that this crook, will get the cumupance
that he so rightly deserves. And America will hopefully
try to become Great Again.

haters will continue to be haters and the tens of thousands of African Americans who have found work will be grateful.

runner,

FBI Robert Mueller, US Inteligence Agencies,
370 former federal prosecutors, and all
the evidence amassed against the US President,
do not qualify as haters. Merely people practicing
the law. And for that all of America should be
grateful. May they continue to do their job and
prove to everybody that no one is above the law.
Not even a US President .

being such a hater of the truth Foxy, its no surprise you comfort yourself with so much fake news. One day you will accept that Hilary lost.

Runner step outside your post, look at it from other view point, can you see you not Foxy seem blinkered?
Fake News the term is not just about those using it to insult the truth
Folks like you, victims of their own blind faith in a massive criminal fraudster,power the man
Trump may be forced to leave his job, or not stand again, that will be fake news, truth would in such a case be this
He knows his supporters know, we know he is a criminal
Americans by the end of this show trial [it is that because Republicans are not going to act with honor] he must consider the Nixon exit strategy
Do a deal,fake news is in every tweet every word he uses we who value honesty see it you? blinkers old mate have slipped they cover both your eyes and ears

I supported Trump in the beginning for his nationalism, but I don't really support him anymore.
But I won't support Democrats either, so I'm now 'none of the above'

As mentioned many months ago however Tulsi Gabbard is the only Democrat maybe worth a look because of her opposition to war in Syria.
- But even she's questionable -

Foxy, your recent comments annoyed me a bit and I tried to figure out why.
I think it's because when you mentioned the Meuller Report what your are kind of naively referring to is the 'official story'.
From how I understand it, it is a kind of a 'fake news' in that it's not what the Meuller report found, but what it left out.
One you see all the parts it left out, all the finer details only then do you start to see a different story.
So this 'official story' (Meuller Report) is a little bit different to the 'back story', or maybe better described as 'actual story'.

runner is beating a drum like Trump is the best thing since sliced bread, but Trump isn't that good.
He campaigned on stopping wars but US foreign policy hasn't changed, and Trumps maybe even worse than anyone else.
He just openly says he's going to illegally occupy another country and take their stuff.
Case in point 'Syrian oil', regime change in Boliva (for lithium), ongoing regime change in Venezeula (for oil)
... Sanctions on Iran (you can't sell yours)
... Blocking oil for Syria (you can't have any, or your own)
It goes on and on.
Name one country the US has 'successfully' brought 'democracy' to.
Go on try name just one.
Name one country where the US came in, made things better for the people who were all now happy and the US then left.
Name just one.

It's not about 'democracy', it's about pilliging other nations resources and all the corrupt members of congress are compromised or have a conflict of interest because they're all profiting off the proceeds of war.
Trump hasn't been able to stop this.

The antidote to fake news is real news.
Stop eating the garbage they spoonfeed you.

Israel Kills Over 30 In Gaza, Bolivia Coup About Lithium And More & Israeli Group Taking Syria's Oil
http://youtu.be/P7okTsMHILE

Bolivia's New US-Made Dictatorship, Netanyahu Wins As Gaza Loses & Iran's Protests Are Trump's Fault
http://youtu.be/lbXUx9o_-DI

come on Armchair, ever since Trump supported Israel you have demonstrated sour grapes and misjudgement in your assessment. Of course he is not perfect but look at the lying democrats who can only offer race politics and hatred as they watch the first president for a long time doing what he said he would. He has cut funding on the baby killing industry, created masses of jobs and proven much better at foreign affairs than his predecessors. He refused to bow to the Paris thieves and has put America first.

runner,

History will judge Trump whether you like it or not.
As for my accepting the fact that Hilary lost? She did not
lose fairly. She had help both from the Trump team and
the Russians.

US intelligence agencies have concluded in 2016 that
Russia was behind an effort to tip the scales of the US
election against Hilary Clinton with a STATE authorised
campaign of cyber attacks and Fake News stories planted
on social media.

At least 17 Trump associates had contacts with Russia and
WikiLeaks which released hacked documents during the
campaign according to an analysis of public
records - by the New York Times,
with at least 100 face-to-face inter actions,
phone calls and electronic messages with Russians or Kremlin
linked figures and at least 51 individual communications.

And you're still defending this man - despite the obvious evidence, and calling me a names? I'm not making this stuff up.

Your support for the US President borders on obsession
and delusion.

'History will judge Trump whether you like it or not.
As for my accepting the fact that Hilary lost? She did not
lose fairly. She had help both from the Trump team and
the Russians. '

What good is history when it is constantly rewritten by regressives Foxy? I am more interested in truth. You say Hilary did not lose fairly. Yep just to many deplorables eh Foxy. Its doubtful with her record that she could ever had won fairly. You seem to support toxic feminist no matter what their character or lying ways.

History will judge runner too
And millions like him who from a badly informed base ignore this very real truth
Donald Trump has weakened the west, maybe terminally
He is a criminal, and a fraud
He won using fake news, represents wealth and privilege and cares nothing for the average American

One of the most blatant examples of "fake news" in recent times is the whole Covington debacle in USA. A young white man was photographed face to face with an elderly Native American Indian. This image appeared round the world with an accompanying narrative that rich, entitled white boys were mocking and harassing a peace loving Indian elder. The rush to judgement became an epic stampede as politicians, activists of various persuasions, movie stars...even the boy's own school and Church spoke out in condemnation.
Then the eye witness accounts and further footage began to trickle in, with the result that an entirely different story emerged. Sadly, not before this teenager was vilified across the word.
What made him a target? He was a Trump supporter, he was a Christian and he was opposed to abortion... and oh yes, he was a privileged white male.
Don't agree with the prevailing political narrative? We'll get you!

Penelope you're falling for the "Fake News"
propaganda - they whipped up the story.
Reputable US news sources did report
the news accurately. Perhaps you need to be
more selective in what you read?

runner,

I stand by my posting record on this forum.
I have never supported any toxic feminists nor
anyone who's a blow-hard, con-man, or a crook,
no matter how much he may tweet and flip-flop
and lie.

Yep, as I said earlier, those who fall for the fake news , when shown to be wrong, just move onto the next fake news story, believing it just a fervently as they believed the old disproven stories but already having forgotten that they once believed it.

For three years there was shouting about Trump's collusion with Russia. The fake news was that it was proven. The fake news was that Trump would be outed because of it. The fake news was that that nice Mr Mueller would bring Trump crashing down. It was reported daily and believed utterly.

And then, horror of horrors, that nice Mr Mueller was finally forced to admit there was NO collusion. Not, mind you, that he couldn't find or prove collusion, but that it simply didn't exist. No American, not Trump nor any of his associates colluded with Russia (or anyone else for that matter) to steal the election. The three year long fake news campaign had been wrong. All the stories about this proof and that proof were lies.

So what do those who'd fallen for the whole gambit do? Well a few woke up to the truth and now call out fake news when they see it. But most, like Foxy, Belly et al just moved on.

Well there may not have been collusion but who cares, they assert. The goal posts have suddenly moved and they purposefully fail to notice. Now its all about obstruction of justice. Which also doesn't exist, but the fake news convinces them it does and they fall all over again. Trump will never be found guilty of obstruction charges. There was no crime so there can be no obstruction. But that's logic and logic has no place in these issues.

Some Trump associates had association with Russians and the fake news dupes think that matters. Of coarse, Obama associated with Russians. Hillary and her people also. All candidates did. But ignore that because the fake news people told us to do so.

/cont

/cont
And so, having learned nothing about how this works, the fake news dupes are now fully on board with the Ukraine allegations. And when that falls apart? Well the goal posts will move again and the dupes will refuse to even notice and will absolutely forget where the posts used to be.

At the end of it, they'll sit and wonder how it was that all this stuff they were told would destroy Trump, didn't. And it'll never occur to them that the stuff they were told was all lies.
__________________________________________________________________

Belly wrote: "And in being one of both, you prove fake news works, only on some however"

So Belly, do you now acknowledge that you were duped over the 11000 scientists story? Any comment on that? Or have you already wiped that from your memory, learned nothing and sit anxiously waiting for the next time someone well sell you a story that isn't true but is believed because you want it to be true.

I can't help but notice Belly, that, although you keep talking about all the right -wing fake news stories that I and others have supposedly fall for, you never ever provide examples.

In this thread I've provided two such stories. One the biggest fake news story since Themistocles told the Persians the Athenians were deserting, ie Russian Collusion. The other a mundane climate fake story that occurs ever other day and is believed by some just as often. But from you...lot's of assertion, no facts.

Dear Hazie,

I'm not going to argue with you about Trump.

Lets wait and see what happens if Trump does
not get re-elected. He just may end up doing time
in jail like his personal lawyer.

In any case as I said earlier - history will judge
this man. Not you or I.

mhaze now this mate is true, I see you as both a victim and promoter of fake news
Folk such as you, given only the wrong Democrat as an alternative, put a criminal in the white house
Soon, fake illness, may see him step aside
What will take place AFTER that is going to leave you with egg on your face
Republicans currently, are clutching a straw, but post Trump will spill their you know what about what they know
This lesson will be learned Hitler showed us we ignored it, some will chase the next shiny thing even if it is a hand grenade pin out

Hey runner,
"come on Armchair, ever since Trump supported Israel you have demonstrated sour grapes and misjudgement in your assessment."

Well, yeah that's true;
- But to be fair I'd be sour grapes if I was a citizen of ANY country and my elected leaders were more concerned with the interests of ANY foreign country over and above our own.

I do see that you said "Very flawed man who is by far the best President America has had for a very very long time."
- i.e. you did make some concessions that the man isn't perfect so maybe I was a little harsh in my comment, in regards to you.

I know Trump has done some good things, and still better than if Hillary won, and better than if the progressives won a mandate.
- Though they still they did on the Hillary electoral results issue.

Hey Foxy,
"She did not lose fairly. She had help both from the Trump team and
the Russians."
Why do you believe she lost unfairly?
How exactly did the Trump team help her lose?
- Was it not their job after all to help Trump to win?

How did the Russians help Trump win?
Are you basing this on a belief Russians hacked the DNC?

PonelopeP's version of the Covington story is correct Foxy;
(Only I can't remember if he was a Christian and opposed abortion)
You're the one whose fallen for fake news there.
I saw the story unfold on Infowars more or less as it happened and long before the media admitted they screwed up.
http://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/26/washington-post-covington-high-school-student-defamation-case-dismissed-1437881

Belly,
How did Trump win using fake news?
(Never mind that people were chanting "Lock her up!" at every rally)
I think the betting is on impeachment, with Pence having the shortest odds.

I'm not afraid to say I've been taken in by fake news before.
The important thing is whether or not you keep falling for it.
90% of the news is propaganda, it's not easy to find and discern the truth in a sea of lies and deceit.

[Cont.]
I made an error in my previous comment:
I said "Though they still they did on the Hillary electoral results issue."
I meant to say they still 'claimed' they did.

'Well, yeah that's true;
- But to be fair I'd be sour grapes if I was a citizen of ANY country and my elected leaders were more concerned with the interests of ANY foreign country over and above our own. '

I would certainly agree with that. However after years of no evidence for Russian collusion, the left and the lying liberal media and the democrats are left with egg totally all over their face. Do you really believe that Hilary or Obama really give a stuff about the US? And as for Joe Biden covering for his son getting a job worth US50000 a month (yes a monthy) just shows how corrupt the moderate democrats (the very few left) are. Even Obama questioned this decision. No wonder they have to move on to their next story. As spoilt brats they can't accept the deplorables decision. The real issue here is Biden's son not Trump. No one has ever uncovered the swamp for what it is like Trump. Yes its taking someone with a big ego and many flaws but the results are their for all who want to see. Luv him or hate him he puts America first. The likes of Foxy and Belly will continue to live in fantasy land believe the likes of Warren (who lied to steal an Indigenous persons job) and other champions of the murderous 'planned parenthood' regime. Meanwhile Hilary will wait for another chance to be defeated.

Dear AC,

I've explained how Russia was behind an effort
to tip the scales of the US election against
Hilary Clinton in this discussion - I have no
further wish to continue to do so.

Enjoy your evening.

Dear Foxy,

Maybe Trump should have been more open and helped to put an affiliate of Putin's Russia into Congress just like ScuMo helped to put an affiliate of the Chinese Communist Party into the Australian parliament. I'm sure AC would recognise that.

Runner yet again dives deep into the fake news propping up a fake POTUS
Right up to his chin quoting every false flag the Republicans manufactured to prop up the indefensible man and his supporters
Yet without doubt post Trump we will be told by even his best helper * Rupert Murdock* he/they knew he was out of control
Western countrys ours for a start, must get Nuclear weapons, America no longer wants to lead the free world and can not be trusted to keep its word
Thank you for that Mr Trump

The real question is, how could the Left function without Fake News ?

Foxy wrote: "Dear Hazie,I'm not going to argue with you about Trump."

Hazie? A tad familiar there, you fox, you.

I wasn't arguing about Trump. I was simply pointing out that the real Fake News is coming primarily from the left and the anti-Trump zealots and that people like you and Belly et al have fallen for it over and over. Yet, having done so and having it proven by people you thought were going to show the opposite (Mueller and his gang) you and others simply moved onto the next fake accusations...and the next...and the next.

"I've explained how Russia was behind an effort
to tip the scales of the US election "

Well I don't think you have. But if you have evidence of it, not mere accusation, then you should pass it on to that nice Mr Mueller because he couldn't find and such evidence. You might also ponder that the meagre Russian interference was done under the Obama regime and was specifically allowed by that regime, with US operatives told not to stop the Russian interference.

I think your evidence, such as it is, is more hope than actual.

"Reputable US news sources did report
the [Covington] news accurately. Perhaps you need to be
more selective in what you read?"

I was hoping PenelopeP would respond but perhaps she too polite or maybe still picking herself off the floor.
PenelopeP was of coarse completely correct. So-called reputable news sources got this story utterly wrong because they didn't bother to seek the truth.
There are court cases currently proceeding on this very issue. The papers being sued aren't even trying to claim they got it right, instead asserting they have no obligation to seek the truth before making their reports.
But your assertion that PenelopeP should be more selective in what she reads is a doozy. Selecting sources that tell you what you want to hear rather than the truth, is why you so often end up on the wrong side of the truth

Belly wrote: "MHaze my sympathy to you you *clearly* are both a salesman for fake news and a victim of it"

Well so you keep asserting. But you haven't offered even an attempt to show evidence of these assertions.

I've show a couple of the myriad examples where you've fallen for fake news. You just pretend to not notice. You should learn from these errors but instead you double-down on the error.

You say I've fallen for fake news. Show examples. But not examples of news that you don't like but actually proven fake news.

You know, like the claims that 11,000 scientists signed that screwy paper you got all excited about, when it might have been 1/10th of that at best. I can't help but notice that you've decided to not even try to defend that bit of fakery. You see Belly, the problem is that if you don't use this as a learning experience, the next time some charlatan comes along, you'll fall for their claims all over again.

mhaze do you understand views other than yours exist and that right now IN AMERICA Trump's polling is in decline
In fact it is you, not me putting fake evidence on the table using totally faked never existed crimes to support the criminal actions of at best a con man and a clown
Tomorrow and the day after more open, honest, things will be said, by those who once worked for Trump
He will rant, use fake words fake excuses to? confuse and hide the truth

Dear Hazie,

I'm not going to argue with you.

Lets wait and see what the future brings as
far as Trump's concerned. And which one of us
is proven to be right about that clown. I'm
putting my bets on reputable news sources -
being correct, on the
US intelligence agency investigators, on all
the public records and hacked documents that have
been released and analysed, on at least 100 face-to-face
inter-actions, phone calls, electronic messages with
Russians or Kremlin-linked figures, and at least 51
individual communications - and
Trump's own aides who will undoubtedly spill
the beans in due course. None of which classifies
as "Fake News" and witch-hunts which Trump
would have us believe.

As for being a tad too familiar? Guilty, as
charged! But heck, I like you - and I'm in a
good mood. When that changes - you'll know.

Fake news comes equally from both sides and has been around for millenia in politics. The calls for censorship invariably come from the left whingers calling to silence only the conservative side of politics.

The reality is that most people can sort out the BS, which is why Labor lost.

Shadow Minister,

Labor lost for a variety of complex reasons.
But how's the government doing lately?
Are voters impressed with politicians in general?

I've been watching the Trump trial. The question is asked, "Did Trump withhold the money? Because the word withhold was used to the Democrats it means this is the smoking gun. However a short delay, as he wanted to investigate that the money previously given was appropriately used. However there was no conditions placed on the money which he gave.

CNN and SBS interpreted that because there was a delay that there was pressure on Ukraine to give dirt on Hunter Biden. Fake News.

ABC gave a report of the high tides in Venice supposedly caused by Climate emergency, but this has occurred twice before in previous centuries. ABC gives fake news.

Foxy,

The government is doing very well running the country while labor sits on the opposition benches examining their navels for another 2 1/2 years after screwing up an unloseable election.

What's better is that the left whinge of labor are convincing themselves that there was nothing wrong with their policies, just an unpopular leader and bad salesmanship. Unless there is serious change they won't get a sniff of power before 2025.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT9fzDULOwU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZkHzxyYoBQ
The majority of Americans voted for Trump, the Democrats cannot accept the result.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJsPet846Qw

Dear Josephus,

No. The popular vote belonged to Hilary Clinton.
Many Americans did not vote at all.
Voting in the US is not compulsory and many
disadvantaged and poor and vulnerable people did not
vote.

Shadow Minister,

According to recent surveys - most Australians
would disagree with you that the government is
doing a good job. As for Labor? It's early days
yet to make any predictions. But one thing is
clear - the government needs to improve if it wants
to get re-elected. Mutterings and rumblings are getting
louder from voters. Especially younger voters.

Foxy, Across America Trump won the Election, just because California voted Hillary is merely one State; Not America.Trump won six states that Democrat Barack Obama had won in 2012: Florida, Iowa, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. Ultimately, Trump received 304 electoral votes and Clinton garnered 227.

Fact not Fake

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=states+won+by+trump+2016&sxsrf=ACYBGNSqtJaBIAPkSUolu6icex4DUaYiZQ:1574137166269&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=bw6ltXvTtXkFEM%253A%252CxtQUclJxMgGz1M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRVWhhSAL1qLqe0KhLtesh-Mg357g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjg5_30tfXlAhVBbn0KHSyTD3YQ9QEwCnoECAUQHg#imgrc=bw6ltXvTtXkFEM:

IF we could step forward 12 months and see Trump?
We may not have to wait that long even Friday American time may be the end
That end will be messy, and youtube will see many I always knew posts
Await some here to tell us that same limp story

'IF we could step forward 12 months and see Trump?'

sure Belly no good at looking back is there. The myriads of temper tantrums, the fake collusion, the fake race crimes. Yep the regressives are shameless knowing the average person has little memory of the lies told yesterday. The mainstream media has been uncovered as largely fraudulent and I doubt will ever get the confidence of any thinking person. Better to wish and hope for Trumps downfall in the future than look at the lies, the fraud and tantrums of the democrats and lying liberal media. Maybe they could get Turnbull on staff to rewrite history.

Dear Josephus,

Fact not fake - Hilary Clinton received almost
three million more votes than Trump.
The largest margin ever for a losing
presidential candidate.

Trump received the majority in the Electoral College.

In the United States presidential election system instead
of the nation wide popular vote declaring the outcome
of the election - the president of the US is determined by
votes cast by electors in the Electoral College.

This system needs to be reformed.

But one thing is clear. Trump does not represent the
will of the majority.

Fact not fake - TRUMP IS PRESIDENT! a thousand cheers!

Correction:

TRUMP IS PRESIDENT - FOR NOW!

That's better.

Foxy,
have a look at this clip!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT9fzDULOwU

Dear Foxy,

You do not fully understand the reasoning behind the structure of the American political system. Is there any real difference between the US Congress electing the head of state and Australian MPs electing the head of government?

I like the Washington system and would like to see Australia dump the Westminster system for the American model. America has a fully democratic system that has all the checks and balances in place to prevent any one person from putting himself or herself above the national interest. It's the system of checks and balances that will be the downfall of Trump.

Democrats fake news releases.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv6jMLM4H_g

Dear Foxy,

The second sentence in my opening paragraph above should have read:

'Is there any real difference between the US College electing the head of state and Australian MPs electing the head of government?'

In Washington Congress is sitting right now
So far mostly ex or present people selected for the jobs they hold/held hopefully because they are both good people and trusted
Have given evidence, not always, in fact always challenging, the actions of the POTUS Trump
Trump has a single defense Fake News Fake evidence
He too has a list of *former appointees he removed*
That list, probably the longest such list in history continues to grow
Trump's supporters would have us believe those on the list lie rather think history will not agree

Belly and Foxy, listen to the actual people attending the impeachment, not the news reporters.

Foxy wrote: "I'm not going to argue with you."

I'm not arguing about Trump either.

What I'm trying to get you to see is that, having been thoroughly taken in by the biggest fake news campaign in history, (ie the Russian collusion hoax), you failed to learn the lessons and are doing it all over again. By being selective in your sources, the very same sources that deceived you last time, you still don't see what's going on.

Belly,

You keep asserting that I'm the victim of belief in fake news and assiduously refuse to offer even one example. Whereas I do the opposite.

Let's try and make it simple Belly. Do you still believe 11,000 scientists signed that paper you were so excited about last week?

mhaze regards and hope your health is better bloke!
I believe the science every word that has been said by the lot of them and think the proof is outside your door
This country has never been this dry, the fires this bad and demand for action on climate change never been stronger
Josephus, please your youtube links while quite funny are untrue
Not worth looking any more of them up
PS phone call this morning, police have arrested a step son of a relative in the north of this state
Seems he and a farmer mate set fire during the total ban, while one was out of control, to back burn!
Police [thanks fellas] say he will be lucky to get less than three years in prison, I think five is about right

So Belly, is that a yes or a no to my question...Do you still believe 11,000 scientists signed that paper you were so excited about last week?

Its not a big issue, but the fact that you can't even acknowledge that you fell for this obvious example of fake news, means there is no hope of you ever coming to gripes with bigger issues.

Mhaze, Belly ignores the fact that many of the 11,000 were Facebook friends of the original poster. Just had certificates in hairdressing, makeup artistry etc. He believes their science, they like him just looked outside the door like him and the sun was shining. All Mickey Mouse science degrees. These Climate cultists want to stop capitalism. Serious scientists do not use social media to present their papers.


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/11/07/11000-climate-scientists-petition-includes-a-bunch-of-fake-names/

YES I believe they are scientist and have reason to say what they did MICKEY MOUSE if he ever put his name on that list maybe a coal owner
And he may be Mickey Mouse
Some parents need flogging for giving some names to their kids
Hows that? anything you can use against me in that
Fake News as said often is made to confuse and give reason to doubt the truth
EG immunisation, so many lard heads will not let their kids be saved because they bought fake stories from fake people
It happens America right now in under about three feet of it

Belly,

It wasn't just a few fake names in the 11,000.

Out of the 11,000, maybe as few as 100 were scientists in fields even vaguely related to climate.

But I give up. You clearly aren't concerned that you were deceived and are determined to not learn from it. Which of coarse means you will be happily deceived again in the future.

mhaze this morning we read about a Trump fan, appointed by him, who says Trump used his position to? break the law, using his countrys cash to blackmail
Had this been about BIDEN you would call for his head
How can you justify that truth
Fake News is the very fuel, very policy platform of the American Republican party and its POTUS
Truth, honesty has been first victim of the Trump era but too the western world has been weakened
In fact Trump has made the world a dangerous place with his insane scrambled egg policies

So let me get this straight, the Ukraine regime change was fine, but blackmnailing them afterwards is a no go?
Or is it that Trump wasn't on the same team as the regime changers?
Please explain.

So Belly you would submit to China with its human rights record, instead of challenging them as Trump does! Oh I remember now; you are a Communist supporter, that believes the mantra, "down with Capitalism, it is destroying the Planet". I must have got it wrong again, "China is burning all our coal and releasing its CO2". The Free Democratic World is scared stiff we might have to go to war with China, so we just surrender to their agenda. Do not disturb the tiger.

Belly you must have first hand ear to the President's phone calls to claim he broke the Law by withholding the money. There was no withholding of the money, stop listening to the fake news and listen to the facts spoken by the people present in the impeachment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ulWTJUQsVY
Democrats make up the evidence, and fail to understand you do not give money unless it is properly appropriated.

"The Free Democratic World"

Which world are you referring to Josephus?

- Reality Check Required -

Hmmm, no crime because he didn't carry the threat out...

That's kind of crap reasoning too btw Josephus

Do they just make up the rules as they go and everyone just goes along with it or ?

- As a complete hypothetical -

Let's say I openly threaten to:
- slash the tyres on your car, burn your house down and harm your loved ones;

Lets say I openly threatened to do these things.
And then lets say I 'chose' not to actually do any of thee things I threatened to do;

'Nope, I've changed my mind, decided I'm not going to do that now.'

I'll say "Hey it was all just a joke, I never ACTUALLY did any of those things."

- But just because I haven't actually done any of those things, doesn't necessarily mean I haven't committed a crime by making the earlier threats to do so.

Of course Trump threatened to withhold the money.
But Biden did the exact same thing.

They're all as bad as each other but what this is really about was not that Trump tried to coerce a foreign leader to do his bidding, but that he was looking for the server to investigate them.

In this scenario of course they will release classified phone calls and start an impeachment because this guys poking around threatens to expose ALL THE STUFF they've been doing.

They always try to distract away from the real issue after the public becomes complacent.

It's the same with Assange and Wikileaks;
- There's no denial that any of the crimes Assange showed were taking place, and there's no punishment for any of those crimes.
They make it about what Assange did not what they were doing.

You idiots fall for it everytime.

AC, Trump is considered GUILTY by the Democrats, and they are posing the accusations of guilt to the public, and it will continue until the next election that Trump is guilty; with the intent that he is a criminal. The CNN link I posted is a six hour hearing and is worth a listen to pick up the vibes.

Even Belly and Foxy say he did the crime! Yet neither Trump or the whistle blower have not appeared before the congress. However a fair trial is not going to happen as his accuser [whistle blower] is not been cross questioned on his evidence. It is a made up charge as a political stunt to damage Trumps credentials.

However I have sources that the Afro-American population are moving toward Trump, as 2,000 Afro-American pastors are supporting him in their congregations moving away from Democrats whom they voted for in 2016.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/everyone-was-in-the-loop-ambassador-confirms-quid-pro-quo-in-bombshell-testimony-20191121-p53ckd.html
This story, a full understanding of who this Ambassador was and is, highlights very very real trouble ahead
It underlines a complete fraud, scammer man who refuses to show his tax details, can get elected head of the free world
It proves truth is not a player, that he, his supporters, backers morning Mr Murdock, care nothing for honesty
Maybe the thread about climate emergency is secondary to this truth Russia and China have hugely, benefited from Trumps circus being in the White House
Our very freedom maybe a victim in years to come as America skates on ever thinner ice

" this morning we read about a Trump fan, appointed by him, who says Trump used his position to? break the law"

Belly,

Where did it say that what they assert Trump did, is illegal.

Meanwhile, in news your selected sources won't bother to tell you, Ukraine prosecutors have subpoenaed the founder of Burisma concerning embezzlement and 'legalising' stolen funds. Love that term 'legalising' - it means laundering. Burisma you won't recall, was the company that employed baby-Biden and paid him millions because he did such a great job. (/sarc). The payments had nothing at all to do with buying off his daddy...no really - perish the thought.

They are also looking at aid funds sent by the US being stolen by past presidents. Trump always said he wanted to withhold the funds until he could be certain the new Ukrainian leadership was above-board...now we know why.

You won't buy it or even understand it Belly, but its all falling apart for the Democrats.

AC,

"no crime because he didn't carry the threat out"

No crime because there was no threat. And even if there was a threat, it was not illegal. It happens all the time in international affairs...just ask that nice Mr Biden...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA--dj2-CY

Oh I thought Russia and Ukraine were at each other. The Democrats and its supporters are just to ignorant to see the irony. Ha ha.

Belly,

I know you prefer to get your data filtered by those who tell you what you want to hear but I prefer original sources.

The ambassador didn't say what SMH told you he said...

http://www.mrctv.org/blog/watch-rep-turner-sondland-no-one-planet-told-you-trump-tied-aid-investigations

Hey mhaze,
Yes, you're correct in that 'is it illegal?' is all that actually matters.
I don't know if there's some old obscure law from that hasn't been used since 1862 or what if any limitations there are on his presidential capacity, or how this all technically works.

Nice work on someone around here actually paying attention to the real news.

In my news, that is the latest George Webb video;

November 20th, 2019. Burisma CEO Indicted For $7.4B Launder - Kolomoiskey Next.
http://youtu.be/1rJQ-g3XOPQ

You beat me to it before I even watched it or got the info myself.

If there was a weekly OLO award for being on top of current events, you'd get my vote.

MHAZE let me tell you while Sky/Fox makes your opinions mine are my own
Even reading Washington post, not quite sure that is worthwhile but continue to
Fake, a whole section of people buy faked storeys, you are one of them my friend
When Trump fakes illness to step down he will tell you he was made sick by Democrats trying to undo the 2016 election
The hugely funny thing is you will believe it

The only facts that can be defined are the testimonies of the witness.
There is a lot of unrelated waffle to try to claim Trump is a Criminal. However none of the facts of Trump's conversation is presented, nor the case for impeachment. They are trying to build a case from hear-say, no actual accuser to present factual evidence of his crime.
Listen to the case here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ulWTJUQsVY

Belly,

This is insane. The SMH tells you Sondland said one thing and you, of coarse totally believe it.

I then show you actual footage, ACTUAL VIDEO, of the man saying the opposite...

and and and you continue to believe what you read. Because it says what you want to be true.

There is literally nothing that'll open your eyes.

Belly I know you are sincere but you are so overwhelmed by Trump hate that you are beyond seeing the truth. You've spent the last three years predicting Trump's imminent fall every other week. And clearly you've been wrong each time. Wrong because you believe these failed sources. And yet you believe them over your own eyes.

I always hoped you could be shown a more centrist path through other sources. But alas its a forlorn hope.

yep regressives always believe what they want to be true rather than facts or truth itself. Sad part is that is how the abc now reports.

Josephus,

<<The only facts that can be defined are the testimonies of the witness.>>

What testimonies do you have of witnesses to Captain Cook's voyage up the east coast of what was to become Australia in 1770.

Does that mean we know zero facts about the voyage of James Cook on The Endeavour?

Fake news fake views is an illness, see those here defending it, know as increasing numbers do, Trump is quite a criminal
Know too if we saw Russia or China lead by such a man the VICTIMS of Trump's fraudulent Presidency would call for blood
Funny weird the way his VICTIMS use fake claims it is me who has been misled
Time is on my side a day will come post Trump, when I remind them they brought a fraud
Too on that day question can some be trusted to understand or respect the truth

OzSpen, We have eye witness accounts of Cook's voyage; what are you talking about?
______________________________________

Belly, watch the impeachment itself and draw your conclusions. Your short coming is you will believe nothing else but that Trump is a criminal. You state it over and over without a trial.

The Trial is happening, and when the star witness used the words "Quid pro Quo" Schiff ran to the media mike and stated it was all over. So the Media release went out - Trump is guilty. CNN, USA today and MSN immediately reported it. However the witness Gordon Sondland was then cross examined, and stated it was his impression the money would be withheld till a report of corruption on the Biden's.

However it was merely his impression, the fact was that Trump would withhold a meeting with the President of Ukraine until they established if there had been corruption under the previous administration. The president of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky stated there was no "Quid Pro Quo" attached to the withholding of the $5B Ukraine Defence. It was granted no strings attached.

What was withheld was a meeting of Trump with the President of Ukraine until they had any evidence of corruption by the bankrupt company that employed Hunter Biden.

Just one last thing, Belly, before I leave you to wallow in your ignorance. You wrote: "MHAZE let me tell you while Sky/Fox makes your opinions mine are my own"

I don't watch either of those. All of my data comes from print media and blogs. I have 11 favoured sites, some of which are anti-Trump, anti-West, that I visit every day (except when I'm on the operating table!!). I have a further 26 sites that I scan every couple of days. I also have a series of favoured journalists and have a programme which searches the WWW each day to find anything new from them.

While the majority of my favoured sites are obviously of the right, I deliberately ensure some are of the left, so as to get some balance.

Finally, if I find a favoured source is shown to be wrong too often, I leave.

Just telling you this to give you an inkling as to how to find the truth rather than the propaganda

Josephus,

<<OzSpen, We have eye witness accounts of Cook's voyage; what are you talking about?>>

Eyewitnesses are only part of determining the veracity of what happened in history of 1770 in Australia.

Were the eyewitnesses truthful in their statements? How do you know?

You seem to have missed the point I'm making: We have to engage in historical science to determine what happened with James Coook in 1770.

Josephus R U O K? how dare you tell me that!
I watch every second and it confirms my views
Fairdinkum are you ok? is there a reason you sound so badly informed, on just about everything?
Reading others posts, understanding why they think as they do is an important part of any forum
But judge only others at your peril
Now for runner, he/she is Australian? why then so heavily armed with the Americised fake slogans? fake theories? fake belief in Trump
Yesterday this day and tomorrow nearly for sure the impeachment gives evidence questioning not only Trump but his every supporter

Well Josephus been reviewing my words to you in a few threads [I often question myself]
We differ on just about everything
But surely you understand my convictions are as firm as yours?
That my opinion is thought out not copied from another source?
And yes, I tend to see your posts as exactly what you claim mine are
*Words from the fake news production factories Fox Sky and its master the Trump camp*

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/in-wild-fox-news-interview-trump-again-shows-his-obsession-with-2016-election-20191123-p53dcf.html
A report on a Fox news interview with Donald Trump, printed in the SMH.
Tell me this is Fake News, then, if you can, watch the reported interview
Trump has one chance, not of being impeached, that will not happen
His chance? if the Democrats AGAIN pick the wrong contender Trump wins another term

Belly, I watched hours of the actual Trump impeachment, and you tell me my sources are fake. They are the facts as the witnesses saw them. The cross examination is able to extract the actual facts. Listen to the cross examination to get the real facts. Schiff tells the media what the witness said, without the cross examination. The Media print what Schiff said.

J, sorry let time pass then tell me America believes that fake mans fake rant on the Fake news factory Fox this morning
Only the wrong Democrat candidate [quite likely] can giftb Trum another term
Wrong? Warren Biden that old Bernie and any green left person

For the benefit of Foxy and Belly. The Facts. Schiff smoking gun tells the truth, while CNN tell the lies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnEWYilDgcg

This is the Star witness who is supposed by the Democrats to bring Trump down.

Josephus,
I have had to deal with Sondland types from the Public Service for nearly 40 years. Every single one was staunchly anti-Conservative. The Progressives' sickening mentality is out of control & the damage caused by them to society irreparable !
Just look at fallout over the past decades resulting from the Whitlam/Keating administrations & now Rudd/Gillard. Then there are the State Labor Govts legacies to complete the mayhem.
And, now there are Lefties who point the finger at Scomo for not getting on top of recovering from that mess in less than six months ?

Josephus your determination to say every word in Trump defense is the truth
That everything Democrats do or say is fake, leave me grinning
A truth needs air to breathe America, under both parties rule, has become a joke
Ill informed love to both hate Obama, and remind us he did little during his last term
Ignoring this truth,he had lost control in both houses and had little power to do anything
Right now America has the leader that best serves its electoral system, a Hoolywood system that is just plain silly
Democrats not Trump, will determine if Trump is to fall, they must find a candidate and not a green or geriatric as seems likely now

I think Trump is finished. He'll be lucky if he makes it to the next election.

Mr O understand and in any country other than America he would be
But that fake news is on sale in America and in all things
He may [unlikely] get over the line, as said Democrats may gift it to him
We can only hope, the world needs a stabile America

If the Republicans win the house in 2020, they will bring trials forward on Obama and Hillary of criminal action after this debacle.

Truth Josephus is one of us has consumed totally fake views, news, and that someone is you
Trump tweeted, no did not formally order, a Navy head
Telling him not to remove a Navy Seal badge from a man recently found not guilty of murdering a prisoner
But guilty of posing with his body, for photos
Sitting in the crumbs of his Macas in bed, tweeting all types of junk, the man remains an idiot
But one who by his actions has badly weakened the west

Belly,

The problem with the impeachment process is that it has been orchestrated in such a partisan manner that any pretense of fair /due process has vanished. That the support for the impeachment in the public also seems to be evaporating indicates the danger for democrats in pursuing this vendetta.

"Emerson polling showed support for impeachment flipped since October from 48 per cent support with 44 per cent opposing to now 45 per cent opposed and 43 per cent in support. Among key independents, the switch was even more pronounced. In October, 48 per cent supported impeaching Trump, with 39 per cent opposed. Now, 49 per cent of independents oppose impeachment, while only 34 per cent support it.

A new Marquette University Law School poll found 40 per cent of registered voters in the swing state of Wisconsin thought Trump should be impeached and removed from office, while 53 per cent did not think so. Another 6 per cent weren’t sure.

A new Gallup poll shows Trump’s approval has ticked up two points since the impeachment drama began, with 50 per cent of Americans opposed to it and 48 per cent in support. Henry Olsen notes that Gallup polls all adults, not just registered voters, meaning a poll of registered voters would have Trump’s job approval even higher and impeachment opposed by closer to a 52-46 margin."

Shadow Minister the polls I read [near daily] in fact say 49 percent agree with the impeachment proceedings but not removing Trump
Too polling I see says Trump has lost 4 percent, so someone is wrong
Fake news gets a run again?
The proceedings are run as per the system requires and it is my view have been run ok
Just read yet another bombastic pro Trump comment, but it was swamped with replies saying the poster is part of the problem
Again only the wrong candidate can stop Democrats removing Trump, and that looks more likely everyday
Strange place America

Belly,

Read the latest articles:

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/what-impeachment-inquiry-americas-made-up-its-mind-on-trump-polls-suggest
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/impeachment-not-affects-trumps-approval-rate-poll/1652170
https://www.theblaze.com/news/after-impeachment-hearings-new-polls-show-democrats-made-severe-miscalculation-with-2020-implications

"WASHINGTON - The ongoing impeachment inquiry into US President Donald Trump has done little to change the American public's views of him and may even have alienated some swing voters, according to new polling.

Early support for impeaching Mr Trump has faded despite days of sobering testimony from non-partisan veteran public servants on an alleged campaign to pressure Ukraine to open an investigation damaging to his political rival Joe Biden, suggesting that America has made up its mind on the President.

An Emerson National poll conducted from Nov 17 to 20 - after four days of public hearings - found that 43 per cent support impeachment, down from the 48 per cent who supported impeachment in October.

The survey found that the biggest swing came from independent voters. Half of them - 49 per cent - now oppose impeachment, up from the 34 percent who opposed impeachment in October.

The survey found that most voters had been paying attention to the impeachment inquiry, with the hearings being watched or followed by 69 per cent of people.

The Emerson poll suggests the impeachment inquiry may have bolstered Mr Trump's position, with his approval rating rising to 48 per cent this month from 43 per cent last month.

Republican voters are also closing ranks around Mr Trump, with 93 per cent preferring him as the Republican candidate for the 2020 presidential election over his primary challengers Bill Weld and Joe Walsh.

"The impeachment at this point isn't having any effect because it's not moving independents or Republicans against Trump," said Fordham University political scientist Monika McDermott at a briefing for reporters, referring to the polling results.

"If something this major can't shake the core of support that he has, then I don't see anything really able to do that. So I don't see impeachment as really having any kind of lasting impact on the elections because it's not shaking his core of support," she added."

Shadow Minister take the S off to make your links work
And yes as we learned here polling is no longer reliable, but my polls gave different results and they are in the same time as yours
We [you and I at least]knew the senate was never ever going to convict him
That remains true
But he has held his base but look at recent elections, lost past support in some states
My bet is he will not be there by this month next year
Face it he verges on acts that could see him, post a second term, be charged with crimes
He may well be looking at doing a deal, leaving, and saying the deep state forced him out
Or, if he goes, Republicans in small but significant numbers, may dump on him ,the self preservation syndrome at work
Sadly I see a badly damaged America, and because of that a weakened western world China and Russia to benefit

Shadow Minister,

When Belly wrote,<<Shadow Minister take the S off to make your links work>> this meant take the 's' off https so your URL reads: http://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/what-impeachment-inquiry-americas-made-up-its-mind-on-trump-polls-suggest

Hope that helps.

Belly,

This sums it up:

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/2dd615b1dd4fe9712e414f9bf1f57695?width=1024

With a Republican run senate trial he is likely to be exonerated, as far as next year's election, his success or failure will depend on who the democrats select, and so far the talent pool is shallow.

Shadow Minister yes but do you read other contributions?
A message for you is in the one under my post
And my post said just what your latest did
That Navy head left his job yesterday, and gave Trump a serving
Great cartoon doing the rounds not sure its home but it shows Trump shooting a man dead
Democrat saying he just murdered someone in front of us!
Republican says ok but I do not like the way you got that evidence so we are not going to impeach him.

Belly

For example the two witnesses that the democrats claimed as devastating were asked at end of their sessions by republicans whether they had ever received instructions or witnessed instructions being given by Trump to use aid to coerce Ukraine and the answer was no. That means essentially that their evidence was either opinion or heresay which in a court would have not been permitted.

These snippets have gone viral, and have severely undermined the democratic case. The forthcoming senate trial will then focus on Biden, the whistle blower etc. That Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are senators and will have to ditch campaigning to attend is also a bonus for the republicans.

Hard job you undertake Shadow Minister
Stepping around some very real truth trying to avoid the fraudulent actions of Trump and his supporters

http://www.nrdc.org/trump-lies
leave the thread with this short sharpe link
And the question why would they lie
Off to recover my car six hour drive each way early morning start have a thread in mind on my return

Belly, You reveal who you are by the things you post, the posts are personal opinions by journalists and not the facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGXL3dh0Tuk

Belly,

You need to separate criticism of the process from any opinion of the facts.

The reality is that the democrats have largely ignored pretty much every facet of due process, and if this was a court trial, most of the testimony would have been thrown out. This has poisoned the process to the point where the republican senator and congressmen are outraged with the result that the chance that Trump will be exonerated by the senate is a virtual certainty, and the chance of the senate taking retribution is very high.