"you see everything through the coke-bottle lenses of Christianity. Unfortunately, the distortion they cause prevents you from seeing that not everything in the world is explicable in terms of "Christians good, atheists dumb, Muslims evil""

ROFL, classics like that make OLO worth reading, they really
do :)

BD, you are surely a harmless fellow who means well, but
perhaps you should think about quitting some of these arguments whilst
you are well behind, for things can only get worse for you.

I don't have a great deal of time to fully take part in this debate but I follow it with interest and have to agree with Pericles on the "atheist" war point.

I like and therefore quote what Sam Harris says about this:

"People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable."

One must love that last sentence!

David I am in support of your claim State murders were performed and still are performed in the cause of atheism - Russia, China, North Korea have millions of murders on their hands, because they believed "Religion was the opiate of the people" that must be eradicated. A belief in god they believed gave individual freedom of conscience and therefore to unify a nation all must conform to one doctrine.

Thus the communist manifesto, the litle Red Book etc was the indoctrination given to all children, any parent teaching differently had their children tortured and murdered in their presence unless they denounced their faith. This was done in the cause of atheism, perhaps not a war but a cultural cleansing of society.

Sergi Kordokoff of the KGB secret police investigating such crimes against the State tells graphic details of children being tortured and murdered in front of their parents in an attempt to have them denounce their faith in God. After years of witnessing Christians being tortured and murdered he himself converts and flees to the USA.

Atheism is the teaching today in North Korea and we can witness the mess that doctrine has made to the Nation. Compare South Korea now 65% Christian - with its prosperity and open world view. The largest single Christian Church in the World is in South Korea with over a million members. Christianity brings freedom, atheism brings opression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

"The result of this militant atheism was to transform the Church into a persecuted and martyred Church.

An intense ideological anti-Christian and anti-religious campaign was carried out throughout the history of the Soviet Union. An extensive education and propaganda campaign was undertaken to convince people, especially the children and youth, not to become believers. The role of the Christian religion and the Church was painted in black colors in school textbooks."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

Many Christian believers in the Soviet Union have told of being imprisoned for no other reason than believing in God. Many have recently been canonized as saints following their death at the hands of Soviet authorities; they are collectively referred to in the Orthodox Church as the "new martyrs". (See also Enemy of the people, Gulag, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Varlam Shalamov)

Philo, I think it might be wise to use authorities other than Wikipedia for a while, on issues that involve value judgements... don't you?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/08/23/1187462441687.html

My point still stands. You very carefully sidestep the issue, in true Boaz fashion, by shifting the groundrules.

>>David I am in support of your claim State murders were performed and still are performed in the cause of atheism<<

State murders, i.e. the persecution of citizens by their government, are not at issue.

I said, and will say again:

"Many wars have been waged in the name of religion.

No war at all has ever been waged in the name of atheism."

The Crusades were a religious war, pure and simple. Crusaders came from many different countries, but defined themselves as being from "Christendom".

When the Nazis went on the march, it was for Lebensraum, with the concept of "pure" Teutonic race behind it. Atheism didn't get a look in. As for the Russian Revolution - here, take a look at these pages and see if you can spot the word "atheist" or "atheism" anywhere.

http://www.thecorner.org/hist/russia/revo1917.htm

I've already pointed out the Cultural Revolution fallacy, and the Korean War fallacy.

>>Atheism is the teaching today in North Korea and we can witness the mess that doctrine has made to the Nation.<<

OK. You are suggesting that the "mess" in North Korea is because they teach atheism? Nothing to do with anything else? Cult of the Great Leader? Are you sure?

Again, please don't take my word for it - take a look through the official North Korean web site, and see if you can spot the word "atheism" anywhere.

Atheism is an absence, not a presence. And while this may upset Christians, you cannot blame bad stuff on something that isn't there.

Hi Pericles,

"My point still stands."

The point relates to the reason provided by those involved for wars I believe. You are saying that people say they are starting a war in the name of religion but never claim to start a war in the name of atheism. That is clearly important to you in the context of the discussion as you consider Philo's post on non-war atrocities sidetracking. Accordingly, in context, are you also saying that head count and atrocities are not a legitimate measure of whether a belief system is better than another belief system (or absence thereof if you like) but whether or not participants cite religion or atheism as a cause of war is a legitimate measure? Alternatively are you simply saying that you raised the point and it stands irrespective of the implications for Philo's comments in the overall comparison between atheism and religion and, as Philo's comment responded to yours, you conclude that he can't prove you wrong.

">>Atheism is the teaching today in North Korea and we can witness the mess that doctrine has made to the Nation.<<

OK. You are suggesting that the "mess" in North Korea is because they teach atheism? Nothing to do with anything else? Cult of the Great Leader? Are you sure?"

Can you please explain what you mean by "Cult of the Great Leader". I don't want to jump to literal conclusions just in case. Thanks.

"Atheism is an absence, not a presence. And while this may upset Christians, you cannot blame bad stuff on something that isn't there."

: ) Is that a deliberate attempt to invoke the Christian saying "Satan's best trick was to convince people he doesn't exist".