The very word brings heated comment and thoughts of communism or radial Socialism.No my idea is not this but in away we have some form of it in Australia now, can we build it to work for us?
I think far too many think it is something for nothing, and maybe sometimes it is.
The Howard rebate, that $600 per child is often gone in grog and poker machines on day one.
But what if we make work for the dole a real job? of value to the community on minimum wages so its not a comfort zone but gives real returns?
Why not make all unemployment a job for awhile with breaks to look for a job? YES PAYING AWARD RATES AND NOT SCABBING ON FELLOW WOKERS.
Why not expand tax breaks on superannuation, but make sure the public purse is not used if not needed? YES AND TERMINATE TAX BREAKS ON NEGATIVE GEARING. WHEN A GENUINE PERSON QUEUES UP TO BUY LAND THE INVESTOR FROM ANOTHER STATE GAZUMPS THEM THAT IS WHY PRICES RISE. THIS GOVERNMENT IS SUBSIDISING THE RICH.
We now charge near true value for public housing but build less why not more? RICHARD COURT, GEOFF KENNET AND THEIR ILK, SOLD OFF STATE HOUSING. BUILD MORE STATE HOUSING AND MAKE LAWS THAT STATE THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE SOLD IN ALL PERPETUITY.
Why not means test all welfare, including public housing ?
Then spend the savings on the truly needed things. THERE SHOULD BE NO MEANS TESTING IF YOU HAVE PAID AUSTRALIAN TAXES THEN WELFARE SHOULD NOT BE MEANS TESTED.
Others may have better ideas but we must be able to help those in need not greed and just maybe caring is not anything like first thoughts of some.
BELLY YOUR ARGUMENTS FOR SOCIALISM ARE TO BE COMMENDED AND THIS FORUM SHOWS WHO HAS A SELFISH ATTITUDE. GREED AND SELFISHNESS IS RIFE BUT AS JESUS CHRIST THE FIRST SOCIALIST PAID THE PENALTY FOR EXPOSING THOSE WHO STOLE FROM OTHERS AND IT GOES ON TODAY.

REPLY TO YOUR ARGUMENTS FOR DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM. No my idea is not this but in away we have some form of it in Australia now, can we build it to work for us?
I think far too many think it is something for nothing, and maybe sometimes it is.
The Howard rebate, that $600 per child is often gone in grog and poker machines on day one.
But what if we make work for the dole a real job? of value to the community on minimum wages so its not a comfort zone but gives real returns?
Why not make all unemployment a job for awhile with breaks to look for a job? YES PAYING AWARD RATES AND NOT SCABBING ON FELLOW WOKERS.
Why not expand tax breaks on superannuation, but make sure the public purse is not used if not needed? YES AND TERMINATE TAX BREAKS ON NEGATIVE GEARING. WHEN A GENUINE PERSON QUEUES UP TO BUY LAND THE INVESTOR FROM ANOTHER STATE GAZUMPS THEM THAT IS WHY PRICES RISE. THIS GOVERNMENT IS SUBSIDISING THE RICH.
We now charge near true value for public housing but build less why not more? RICHARD COURT, GEOFF KENNET AND THEIR ILK, SOLD OFF STATE HOUSING. BUILD MORE STATE HOUSING AND MAKE LAWS THAT STATE THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE SOLD IN ALL PERPETUITY.
Why not means test all welfare, including public housing ?
Then spend the savings on the truly needed things. THERE SHOULD BE NO MEANS TESTING IF YOU HAVE PAID AUSTRALIAN TAXES THEN WELFARE SHOULD NOT BE MEANS TESTED.
Others may have better ideas but we must be able to help those in need not greed and just maybe caring is not anything like first thoughts of some.
BELLY YOUR ARGUMENTS FOR SOCIALISM ARE TO BE COMMENDED AND THIS FORUM SHOWS WHO HAS A SELFISH ATTITUDE. GREED AND SELFISHNESS IS RIFE BUT AS JESUS CHRIST THE FIRST SOCIALIST PAID THE PENALTY FOR EXPOSING THOSE WHO STOLE FROM OTHERS AND IT GOES ON TODAY.

How do I start? my warning the word starts heated debate has come home to haunt me.
I am with great pride a trade unionist, just as proud yet sometimes concerned I am Labor to the boot straps.
I am no teenager once I followed the very left even thought communism was an answer for the world, I was wrong.
My type of unionism is not extremism, my firmly held view is unions should except our members mostly want only workplace justice from us not political leadership.
Right now those who bludge on workers often are workers.
Those who sign an AWA without reading it.
Those I found just a week ago sitting on a septic tank for a lunch room.
Union action saw a freshly painted lunch shed, pie warmer, hot water, micro wave oven, in place.
It saw the under payment of $76 A WEEK fixed.
It saw an investigation into further breach's of meal allowances that will bring more back pay.
It did not see one of the 9 workers who got the benefit of my actions JOIN A UNION!
I think I have an understanding of what Socialism is, and just maybe what it could be.
And just maybe I have an understanding of just how few want anything to do with it, far too few for us to implement it in this country.
And yet few would give up the idea of free education, health care for all, so very much we already have.
So room exists to re craft Socialism capitalism can not forever continue in its present form.
What would happen if the emerging housing credit crisis in the USA bought about world credit problems?
Would those who are unconcerned about those in need still be if it was them who needed help?

My new Socialism would at all costs avoid the slothful traps we fall into even now.
Right now in the parts of our economy that are Socialist, yes we have many, we fail to be accountable.
My government department I worked in still has a public service element who have a job for life.
Some so totally unsuited for the job do nothing to earn very big pay checks.
And while tieing up the arms and legs of outdoor workers in red tape , place all the blame on those workers and then replace them with shonky contractors but keep the job for life themselves!
To privatize some parts of the public service would be a very good idea.
Or the family's who have third and fourth generations on social welfare, even kids on minders pensions to look after grand parents they rarely see.
While running car repair back yard good money fraud on the dole, un worried about being found out.
I will not back down from my view social welfare fraud is a crime against those in true need if we save enough that true living wage can be achieved.
Work for the dole? no never but earn it ? fair wages not sit down money?
Yes every time yes.
If fate puts me out of work I would work in any job while I could rather than bludge on others who needed welfare more than me.

I get so tired of the debate of socialism vs capitalism. It misses the point entirely.

Pure socialism, just like pure capitalism, doesn't exist. That's the first, fundamental thing you need to understand.

Pure capitalism could exist without government - there is a model that can support privatisation for every function of government, and democracy can supposedly exist through shareholder policies and purchasing habits. Yet this concept rightfully frightens people, and does not yet exist.

Similarly, pure socialism can't work - take a look at China. Capitalist tendencies abound, and the single party system is more of an issue of democracy than it is an economic factor.

So, this turgid debate needs to be reframed entirely. The new debate needs to simply be, what level of government intervention is appropriate in economic affairs.

We already have a socially libertarian government. If you accept a wide ranging definition, most world governments are.

The question then becomes, what is the best outcome? To this, we need to look at examples.
Whilst you can't compare more liberal nations such as Finland, Sweden etc. as Socialist, it is safe to say they adopt less economically classic libertarian policies than the US, which tends to lead the world in this practice, spurred on by the economic might of the multinationals who find a classically libertarian approach much more suited to their goals.

Before we can get very far with this issue, we need to decide whether or not we do believe income disparity is a societal problem, and how effective the 'trickle-down' effect of hardcore capitalism really is.

I for one, think we are headed for society that places too much faith in the capitalist economically libertarian side of philosophy - I'd prefer more centrist tendences, which would be evidenced by a shift toward the style of government adopted in places such as Finland.

Hey Belly.... interesting direction in the thread :)

Actually, what I observe in your own work is not 'socialism'..but PROPHETIC VOICE.. i.e. you are standing up for "Justice" which is exactly what Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Amos, Hosea, Daniel..and many others did also.

Micah 2:

Woe to those who plan iniquity,
to those who plot evil on their beds!
At morning's light they carry it out
because it is in their power to do it.
2 They covet fields and seize them,
and houses, and take them.
They defraud a man of his home,
a fellowman of his inheritance.

Belly....does the above sound familiar ? It should..its straight out of your own case book mate :) THIS....is what the prophets were about.
But they had an edge which the trade unionist does not have... and here it is:

3 Therefore, the LORD says:
"I am planning disaster against this people,
from which you cannot save yourselves.

The difference is.. you appeal to their mortal conscience, and what I suspect might happen is..that when you are not around to bug them, they might forget the 'voice of conscience' and simply revert to their bad old ways.

When the prophets spoke.. they appealed to the relationship of the Israelites to God..they said "Be just and kind..because GOD REQUIRES IT"...

Take God out of the picture, and... I think people will say "Oh.. why bother".. and take the line of least resistance.

Even Christians need the prophetic voice and teeth applied to their spiritual rear ends at times.. a 'blast from the past' in their ears... some words of Jesus.. it all helps people to re-think their position.

I believe that a society which believes in a Loving God, purpose in life, and a hereafter will be a wholesome society, but if that is all an illusion, then, as Paul said, and I often say "We are to be pitied"
for we believe in a lie. I have full confidence that this is not the case, on the evidentiary and experiential levels.. so..I keep on :)