The very word brings heated comment and thoughts of communism or radial Socialism.No my idea is not this but in away we have some form of it in Australia now, can we build it to work for us?
I think far too many think it is something for nothing, and maybe sometimes it is.
The Howard rebate, that $600 per child is often gone in grog and poker machines on day one.
But what if we make work for the dole a real job? of value to the community on minimum wages so its not a comfort zone but gives real returns?
Why not make all unemployment a job for awhile with breaks to look for a job?
Why not expand tax breaks on superannuation, but make sure the public purse is not used if not needed?
We now charge near true value for public housing but build less why not more?
Why not means test all welfare, including public housing ?
Then spend the savings on the truly needed things.
Others may have better ideas but we must be able to help those in need not greed and just maybe caring is not anything like first thoughts of some.

belly, smarter men than you can't make socialism work. we grow up in a selfish society, and survival demands reciprocal aggression.

there have been human societies based on communal activities, we are not incapable of it, but warrior societies knocked them over.

you are the slave of just such a selfish warrior society, you call it the 'alp'.

Dear Belly
It is not a question can Democratic Socialism work ?
The obvious reply to that is can Capitalism function ?
When Conservatism has it's backs to the wall as what is happening with the rise of fundamentalism in Islam. Conservatism becomes gradually fascism. Labor Parties are not Democratic Socialist with the influence of the religous right in the Labor Party it is no more than a Social Democratic Party. Kevin Rudd admits that he is not a Democratic Socialist and that he is a Social Democrat. Tony Blair was a Conservative in control of a Labour Party. Unfortunately we have seen the decline in Australia of the disposal as a gift of Alinta Gas, Commonwealth Bank hence bank charges. R&I Bank, SGIO, Government Print, Destruction of Government Education and the National Health Service, selling State Housing so much irrepairable damage to us all. Now we are all suffering the consequences. What other harmful damage can they do to us ARR YES use water as a commodity sell water huge profits there. Sell the railways huge profits there. Sell Uranium dammn the locals they are of no consequence huge profits there. This is money that can finance big American Companies so that they can elect to send young men to their deaths to privatise the Islamic Oil. They can then use the depleted uranium within the cluster bombs to surgically drop onto innocent civilians. This is why Belly Democratic Socialism is an idealism that can never be exterminated the class struggle will always continue unfortunately the opium of the people will always cloud the issues.

If Democratic Socialism worked we would all want to live in China or Russia or Cuba or maybe North Korea....in other words Democratic Socialism is as idealistic and impossible as Communism. It won't work.
This is not about haves and have nots either. It is about the way society has to function - unless we are all going to be clones.

"The Howard rebate, that $600 per child is often gone in grog and poker machines on day one.

Get rid of it. We need less people, not more. It's 6000, not 600

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/population-sustainability.html

"But what if we make work for the dole a real job?

Have you ever been in a work for the dole program? If they made it a real job, you would have to get them to do real work. Good luck. If it was a real job it would pay for itself so private business could supply the work anyway. If it doesn't pay for tiself then you should free the workers up. We have a labour shortage.

"Why not expand tax breaks on superannuation, but make sure the public purse is not used if not needed?

Isn't this a contradiction? If you expand tax breaks, you eat into the public purse.

"Why not means test all welfare, including public housing ?

We already do.

"Then spend the savings on the truly needed things.

You don't think we already try to do that?

"It is about the way society has to function - unless we are all
going to be clones."
How does present society function when it is based on a political system mired in treachery, betrayal, murderous wars for resources.
And heading for bigger wars?
What is the state of society when governments implement a wrecking operation against the public hospital system, schools, and unis?
A systen that cannot resolve poverty, inequality, racism, class conflict. A system based on each against all, beggar thy neighbour, every man for himself, me first etc., A system based on every nation fighting for a shrinking market. A system where every form of difference colour, religious, caste, class, national, parochial and even gender politics is actively promoted. A system that uses divisions to divide and conquer, divide and rule, divide and steal.
A system whereby economic relations dominate and take precedence over genuine human relations. Whereby economic relations dominate men. There was no socialism in China, Russia or Cuba. China and Cuba based themselves on the peasants and a national program called Maoism or Castroism. In Russia the power was usurped by a national beauracratic leadership who murdered the genuine socialists in the 1936 Stalin frame up trials. Stalin then instituted a nationalist program which had nothing to do with socialism and eventually led back to capitalism. Genuine Socialism is based on the international unity of workers and an end to innequality. As well, producing goods for societies needs not the holly dollar.

So Belly

Is this what Kevin Rudd the Labor party and unions trying to achieve.

Seems like you are promoting it.

So will we be dictated to as well, by labor party policy.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent Candidate for Charlton

Tapp you do need to think before you post!
And DEMOS this time we agree standing firmly in the way of a more caring world is personal greed.
Now I am not My poor Friend Tapp, speaking for the ALP, or promoting anything.
Those who understand anything, maybe not Tapp know we already have part Socialism.
My first post highlighted the heat the word brings, the miss understanding of what it is, and the miss use of the name and even its practice by some.
My new Socialism is an idea that needs expanding, it is accountable Socialism.
It is quite true that public owned enterprise is often sluggish and non responsive, why must it be so?
It is true some who can afford to stand on their own feet bludge on government handouts why do we allowed it?
If we just think about it those truly in need could be paid a true living income if waste is cut.
Tapp I am sure you are a good person, true! but how can you constantly charge me with thinking in away I clearly do not?
Mate no offense but after your election loss will you consider the need to impress voters not start needless wars with them?

Hi Belly mate...

Old Socialism, New Socialism.. new improved Socialism.. new improved socialism with 'ingredient X' etc.. just like 'Capitalism' in its variations... none of them 'work'....without the will to make them work.

Anything tending towards the 'Socialism' which entraps more and more people into the fabric of 'State'... will be repudiated by those with vision. As a Cuban farmer said on a doco last night "If the State employs you on a farm..'its just a job' so you don't care, but WOOOO when the state has a 'quota' and anything more than the quota is..YOURS aaah..now THAT makes a bigggg difference to motivation"

1/ All for the state ? FAILS (Low motivation, low productivity)
2/ All for the individual ? FAILS (High motivation, high productivity, mass exploitation.)

Politically, leaving the Almighty out of it all, the only workable and socially responsible position is a middle ground. Un-fortunately, even with such a policy, there will be many who simply follow after the self interest alone.

So, we need more than just policy. We need a 'reason' to want it to work. What 'reason' can move us to want things to work for 'others' as well as for us ? Philosophically, Humanism might be a goer.. I said.."might" because once subjected to close scrutiny, it fails the 'reasonableness' test. Why work for others at all in a finite world with no inherrent meaning or purpose ? (i.e. the 'No God' box is ticked)

Again.. I conclude that just like Ancient Israel where farmers were required NOT to harvest the last grain of wheat, rather were to leave sufficient for the scroungers... the poor..the widows...and the alien...so this is 'benevolent capitalism' but.. it also has soul... it is connected to the idea of a Just Creator.

THAT....is what we need... not a re-branded failed political idea.
cheers.

Almost one third of what we earn gets taxed and spent by the government. This is the highest rate of taxation in Australia's history. Australia is only capitalist in a nominal sense. In reality we are a mixture, as is any large well functioning economy. Labelling countries or policies as capitalist or socialist just oversimplifies a complex issue.

http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1177399964

Let people find their own reason to work. We do not need to provide it for them.

Let us not think of Cuba in my name here.
Firmly and proudly let me say this once young ,once very left lefty is no longer anything other than an enemy of the very left.
It is my honestly held view they do more harm than good to those in need.
However I did not start this thread to rename anything, in fact I had hopes we could talk of a new better accountable Socialism.
Give it another name if you must but I find nothing wrong with helping those in need.
But yes ,even for me the waste that comes with true Socialism, the end of the need to produce better outcomes is not the answer.
BD we have room to move in this debate we already have part Socialism in this country.
We must never think better ways can not be found .

Tony Blair formed the New Labour it was as evil as the Bush and Howard Governments sending their unemployed youth to war admist depleted uranium. The true Socialism is International Socialism governed by the United Nations whereby they would feed the world and destroy every single killing weapon where all of our money is wasted. Food and aid not bombs greed or capitalism. This is what Islam sees as true evil that is why they desperately take their own and innocent lives. Peasants did this in Cuba to rid themselves of the American controlled Mafia. This is why Castro came to power because of the American corruption. Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe are and were tyrants parading under State Capitalism. Only Trotsky tried to implement Marx but was expelled later to be murdered by Stalin. To have accountability in the media we need the same policies as we are trying to campaign that show the ingredients on food packets and tins on the shelves. Every newspaper has to be named on who the Proprieter is so if we buy the Sunday Times it is to be named the Murdoch Sunday Times because it is his point of view. If we purchase the West Australian it is to be named the Packer West Australian as an example. Today a Conservative devotee has announced that he will now open up a Newspaper in Queensland that will attack Peter Beattie on every issue this is how far they are prepared to stoop within this class struggle.

The very word brings heated comment and thoughts of communism or radial Socialism.No my idea is not this but in away we have some form of it in Australia now, can we build it to work for us?
I think far too many think it is something for nothing, and maybe sometimes it is.
The Howard rebate, that $600 per child is often gone in grog and poker machines on day one.
But what if we make work for the dole a real job? of value to the community on minimum wages so its not a comfort zone but gives real returns?
Why not make all unemployment a job for awhile with breaks to look for a job? YES PAYING AWARD RATES AND NOT SCABBING ON FELLOW WOKERS.
Why not expand tax breaks on superannuation, but make sure the public purse is not used if not needed? YES AND TERMINATE TAX BREAKS ON NEGATIVE GEARING. WHEN A GENUINE PERSON QUEUES UP TO BUY LAND THE INVESTOR FROM ANOTHER STATE GAZUMPS THEM THAT IS WHY PRICES RISE. THIS GOVERNMENT IS SUBSIDISING THE RICH.
We now charge near true value for public housing but build less why not more? RICHARD COURT, GEOFF KENNET AND THEIR ILK, SOLD OFF STATE HOUSING. BUILD MORE STATE HOUSING AND MAKE LAWS THAT STATE THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE SOLD IN ALL PERPETUITY.
Why not means test all welfare, including public housing ?
Then spend the savings on the truly needed things. THERE SHOULD BE NO MEANS TESTING IF YOU HAVE PAID AUSTRALIAN TAXES THEN WELFARE SHOULD NOT BE MEANS TESTED.
Others may have better ideas but we must be able to help those in need not greed and just maybe caring is not anything like first thoughts of some.
BELLY YOUR ARGUMENTS FOR SOCIALISM ARE TO BE COMMENDED AND THIS FORUM SHOWS WHO HAS A SELFISH ATTITUDE. GREED AND SELFISHNESS IS RIFE BUT AS JESUS CHRIST THE FIRST SOCIALIST PAID THE PENALTY FOR EXPOSING THOSE WHO STOLE FROM OTHERS AND IT GOES ON TODAY.

REPLY TO YOUR ARGUMENTS FOR DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM. No my idea is not this but in away we have some form of it in Australia now, can we build it to work for us?
I think far too many think it is something for nothing, and maybe sometimes it is.
The Howard rebate, that $600 per child is often gone in grog and poker machines on day one.
But what if we make work for the dole a real job? of value to the community on minimum wages so its not a comfort zone but gives real returns?
Why not make all unemployment a job for awhile with breaks to look for a job? YES PAYING AWARD RATES AND NOT SCABBING ON FELLOW WOKERS.
Why not expand tax breaks on superannuation, but make sure the public purse is not used if not needed? YES AND TERMINATE TAX BREAKS ON NEGATIVE GEARING. WHEN A GENUINE PERSON QUEUES UP TO BUY LAND THE INVESTOR FROM ANOTHER STATE GAZUMPS THEM THAT IS WHY PRICES RISE. THIS GOVERNMENT IS SUBSIDISING THE RICH.
We now charge near true value for public housing but build less why not more? RICHARD COURT, GEOFF KENNET AND THEIR ILK, SOLD OFF STATE HOUSING. BUILD MORE STATE HOUSING AND MAKE LAWS THAT STATE THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE SOLD IN ALL PERPETUITY.
Why not means test all welfare, including public housing ?
Then spend the savings on the truly needed things. THERE SHOULD BE NO MEANS TESTING IF YOU HAVE PAID AUSTRALIAN TAXES THEN WELFARE SHOULD NOT BE MEANS TESTED.
Others may have better ideas but we must be able to help those in need not greed and just maybe caring is not anything like first thoughts of some.
BELLY YOUR ARGUMENTS FOR SOCIALISM ARE TO BE COMMENDED AND THIS FORUM SHOWS WHO HAS A SELFISH ATTITUDE. GREED AND SELFISHNESS IS RIFE BUT AS JESUS CHRIST THE FIRST SOCIALIST PAID THE PENALTY FOR EXPOSING THOSE WHO STOLE FROM OTHERS AND IT GOES ON TODAY.

How do I start? my warning the word starts heated debate has come home to haunt me.
I am with great pride a trade unionist, just as proud yet sometimes concerned I am Labor to the boot straps.
I am no teenager once I followed the very left even thought communism was an answer for the world, I was wrong.
My type of unionism is not extremism, my firmly held view is unions should except our members mostly want only workplace justice from us not political leadership.
Right now those who bludge on workers often are workers.
Those who sign an AWA without reading it.
Those I found just a week ago sitting on a septic tank for a lunch room.
Union action saw a freshly painted lunch shed, pie warmer, hot water, micro wave oven, in place.
It saw the under payment of $76 A WEEK fixed.
It saw an investigation into further breach's of meal allowances that will bring more back pay.
It did not see one of the 9 workers who got the benefit of my actions JOIN A UNION!
I think I have an understanding of what Socialism is, and just maybe what it could be.
And just maybe I have an understanding of just how few want anything to do with it, far too few for us to implement it in this country.
And yet few would give up the idea of free education, health care for all, so very much we already have.
So room exists to re craft Socialism capitalism can not forever continue in its present form.
What would happen if the emerging housing credit crisis in the USA bought about world credit problems?
Would those who are unconcerned about those in need still be if it was them who needed help?

My new Socialism would at all costs avoid the slothful traps we fall into even now.
Right now in the parts of our economy that are Socialist, yes we have many, we fail to be accountable.
My government department I worked in still has a public service element who have a job for life.
Some so totally unsuited for the job do nothing to earn very big pay checks.
And while tieing up the arms and legs of outdoor workers in red tape , place all the blame on those workers and then replace them with shonky contractors but keep the job for life themselves!
To privatize some parts of the public service would be a very good idea.
Or the family's who have third and fourth generations on social welfare, even kids on minders pensions to look after grand parents they rarely see.
While running car repair back yard good money fraud on the dole, un worried about being found out.
I will not back down from my view social welfare fraud is a crime against those in true need if we save enough that true living wage can be achieved.
Work for the dole? no never but earn it ? fair wages not sit down money?
Yes every time yes.
If fate puts me out of work I would work in any job while I could rather than bludge on others who needed welfare more than me.

I get so tired of the debate of socialism vs capitalism. It misses the point entirely.

Pure socialism, just like pure capitalism, doesn't exist. That's the first, fundamental thing you need to understand.

Pure capitalism could exist without government - there is a model that can support privatisation for every function of government, and democracy can supposedly exist through shareholder policies and purchasing habits. Yet this concept rightfully frightens people, and does not yet exist.

Similarly, pure socialism can't work - take a look at China. Capitalist tendencies abound, and the single party system is more of an issue of democracy than it is an economic factor.

So, this turgid debate needs to be reframed entirely. The new debate needs to simply be, what level of government intervention is appropriate in economic affairs.

We already have a socially libertarian government. If you accept a wide ranging definition, most world governments are.

The question then becomes, what is the best outcome? To this, we need to look at examples.
Whilst you can't compare more liberal nations such as Finland, Sweden etc. as Socialist, it is safe to say they adopt less economically classic libertarian policies than the US, which tends to lead the world in this practice, spurred on by the economic might of the multinationals who find a classically libertarian approach much more suited to their goals.

Before we can get very far with this issue, we need to decide whether or not we do believe income disparity is a societal problem, and how effective the 'trickle-down' effect of hardcore capitalism really is.

I for one, think we are headed for society that places too much faith in the capitalist economically libertarian side of philosophy - I'd prefer more centrist tendences, which would be evidenced by a shift toward the style of government adopted in places such as Finland.

Hey Belly.... interesting direction in the thread :)

Actually, what I observe in your own work is not 'socialism'..but PROPHETIC VOICE.. i.e. you are standing up for "Justice" which is exactly what Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Amos, Hosea, Daniel..and many others did also.

Micah 2:

Woe to those who plan iniquity,
to those who plot evil on their beds!
At morning's light they carry it out
because it is in their power to do it.
2 They covet fields and seize them,
and houses, and take them.
They defraud a man of his home,
a fellowman of his inheritance.

Belly....does the above sound familiar ? It should..its straight out of your own case book mate :) THIS....is what the prophets were about.
But they had an edge which the trade unionist does not have... and here it is:

3 Therefore, the LORD says:
"I am planning disaster against this people,
from which you cannot save yourselves.

The difference is.. you appeal to their mortal conscience, and what I suspect might happen is..that when you are not around to bug them, they might forget the 'voice of conscience' and simply revert to their bad old ways.

When the prophets spoke.. they appealed to the relationship of the Israelites to God..they said "Be just and kind..because GOD REQUIRES IT"...

Take God out of the picture, and... I think people will say "Oh.. why bother".. and take the line of least resistance.

Even Christians need the prophetic voice and teeth applied to their spiritual rear ends at times.. a 'blast from the past' in their ears... some words of Jesus.. it all helps people to re-think their position.

I believe that a society which believes in a Loving God, purpose in life, and a hereafter will be a wholesome society, but if that is all an illusion, then, as Paul said, and I often say "We are to be pitied"
for we believe in a lie. I have full confidence that this is not the case, on the evidentiary and experiential levels.. so..I keep on :)

Boaz
Trade Unions have been formed from the Christian Church, hence brothers and sisters and Father of the Chapel. The Labour Party was then formed from the Trade Unions which had to be as the Wigs and Tories were not doing enough for the underprivelidged, poor and needy and the working proletariat. Those who rebeled were shipped to Australia. Nothing has altered since the Tol Puddle Martyrs the class struggle continues with as always Religoun clouding the issues. True Democratic can only work if the tail is wagging the dog. Committees deciding and electing executives with periodocal elections. The Howard Government is extremely Centralist with no regard for Communities starving the States and the Welfare selling off Utilities so that the Federal Government can be Paternalistic to it's subjects. The infamous Baroness Thatcher did exactly the same a decade ago until the people found her out. Keynsian Policies is the only way as was the Marshall plan soon after the second world war it was extremely successful wholesale Nationalisation.

Turn right then left I am not looking for pure Socialism, in fact I am trying to highlight the idea is an old one.
And just maybe we can change the idea to fit in with the modern world.
Bronco lane BD and your self at some level have got it right, man can be both good and bad all on his/her own.
You BD understand I am no longer Christian, but all religions, we have no right to single any out as more wrong or right, have good and bad in them.
If your God came back today, I would invite him to visit a work site, one of the worst of course.
I think you may not like the thought but just maybe the money lenders he put down the steps would not be workers.
Now again what type of world do we want? can we make a brand new Socialism?in partner ship with Capitalism?
Can we make it work for those in true need ? and not hide those who use it in greed in its folds?
Can a true fill in job, no not work for the dole! true minimum AUSTRALIAN wages not American, be paid ,not sit down and rot money be paid? some may stay forever in such a job, other can be helped get the next foot on the ladder why not?
Are we content to see our streets forever full of people who live in the dark doorways? or do we agree every one should have a home?
Do we except the slide to American style minimum wages that brings homelessness and hunger?
Or can we do better?
Accountable Socialism not bound to uncaring failure but setting improvement targets every step for those who use it, why not?
BD old mate your God would surely not be offended if we stopped waiting for him to again feed the masses and did it our selfs would he?
regards all

Hi Belly and Bronco

Belly asks about 'can Socialism work with Capitalism'? You are talking there about 2 sets of (conflicting) ideas mate.

The point I was trying to make by referencing the prophets, is that it's not a 'one or the other' issue..... capitalism existed in ancient Israel.. and so did socialism, but not by those names.

Unfortunately also, when the leaders departed from God, and God's values of Justice, fairness and social compassion, the whole thing fell apart. The socialist aspect vaporized, and the capitalist side became hardened and uncaring.

Yes.. those Jesus drove out of the temple.. the money changers/merchants etc.. were certainly NOT 'workers' as you put it.

I would love to see a Prophet today :) He would role up to a building site.... perhaps where there was issues... and this is what he would say...

IN THE NAME OF GOD ALMIGHTY!.... You.. bosses who have deprived your workers of justice, and have sought to extract every last farthing from the sweat of their brows.. YOU... turn from your selfishness and return to the Lord God and his values.
and you.. unionist, who have been bullying people to join your union who arranged an "all call in sick" day... back off! return also to the Lord God.. and seek to resolve disputes with fairness and by the law of the Lord.

wow :) now THAT would be something.

Oh..by the way, the "Law of the Lord" when it comes to dispute resolution is found here.

Matthew 18

15"If your brother sins against you,[b] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector

I can only think in freedom terms,as the new US candidate Dr.Ron Paul puts it.May we take a lesson from this for our next elections:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/07/17/spotlight-on-presidential-candidate-ron-paul.aspx

Dear Boaz
Yes I want a tolerant society where people have their beliefs and not killed for holding them. With secretarian bloodshed this happens religion is man made where it divides all people and clouds the class struggle. Today we see an Australia that is divided by class the rich getting rich and the poor getting poorer. A government that allows swindlers scam pensioners and only dithers the Howard Government does nothing. All the Howard Government does is spend tax payers money concentrating on getting re-elected. We need a Democratic Socialist Society that provides infrastructure. Builds railways, Collects all the rainwater that drops from the heavens with rainwater drains that flows into reservoirs. Builds roads new towns and invest in renewable energy. Do not touch Nuclear energy with a barge pole as it will be expensive and dangerous to all.

Well I did in my first post warn myself! heated sometimes so very wrong the debate will always be so.
Almost every one who so far took place in this thread is far from unintelligent yet we digress time and again.
Socialism in some form and Capitalism are working together right now.
Europe is much more Socialism than us America much more Capitalist.
Do not get me wrong, it is no dream of a Socialist or Communist Utopia that drives me.
And I refuse to wait for a man made dream called God to put things right.
It is my view Capitalism can not alone survive forever, and that Socialism in any of its forms so far used rule either.
But I highlight the stated intent of our education ,health care public transport, so very much more that is Socialism today.
Almost every one would share my view that needless waste is often seen in Socialism, and needless victims are created by Capitalism , see American street people, in the richest land in the world.
WHY?
Why not a new better way?
BD I am sure your God, yes once mine, would be more offended if we did not try to help the true poor than if we did.
And bloke if he existed and I was wrong I would be content to be sent to hell for living a life that required a fair go for workers , many of who like you are dreamers of the dream , the one that says man has no need to fix the world if he can
regards all from a proud trade unionist who is content to be judged by the share holders my members.

Dear Belly
I wrote down a 250 word paragraph practically agreeing to everything that you have said so far pressed control by mistake and lost the lot. So it was never meant to be. It basically said that it appears as though you do believe in a mixed economy but please do not overlook PPP where profit is still the carrot to the detriment of a service that serves the people. It is obvious that the Howard Government has not got the Political Will to make Government Services work for the Benefit of the people. He is not only concentrating on spending money to prolong the war in Iraq in that he is now at war with his very own people by waging a war on all workers with that dreaded word Work Choice.

Bronco Lane till death I am union, and so far from conservative you would not believe it.
But with 22% of workers in unions, and more true poor each day I want my movement Labor/Labour to explore new better ways.
I do not think we yet have a better way than a mixed economy.
But self interest is leaving far too many on the scrap heap, some of that self interest is from slugs grazing on Social welfare they do not truly need.
You and I know some is from fat already well of who think in terms of self interest not the country's interest.
The thread nears the end of the page so debate is limited but if we take one issue at a time we can find interesting answers.
Take public owned enterprise, I have seen generations of one family transfer the leadership roll just because the next level of management did not want to change anything.
Generation after generation of poorly skilled money wasters in a government department why?
One NSW department has taken the best grader operator you could ever find and as a reward turned the most valuable asset they had into the worst foreman!
And replaced him with the worst grader operator you could see in 5 lifetimes.
Contracting out management rolls would blend into a productive concern yes mixed economy not mixed up.

Dear Belly and All
We all seem to be pontificating to the converted here.
The Conservative Candidate from Charlton was probably so outnumbered or didn't understand the arguments for Socialism. I have no doubt that you are an unselfish committed Trade Unionists Belly. But careful with what you are saying you are quoting the Conservative Media by looking over your shoulder at your neighbour sciving on the dole. These spongers are only a minority. If they are liberty takers what about Messrs Murdoch and Packer how much tax do they pay from a percentage of their profits ? Back to Socialism Kevin Rudd is electable as he is a Howard clone. Approving the raping and cutting down of Tasmanian old growth forests. Expanding Uranium Mining, The funding of Private Schools to the detriment of Government Schools. Yet Mark Latham appeared pure Socialist by Not approving cutting down of old growth forests with Bob Brown, Reduce public funding to private schools to return it to where it belonged Government Schools and no expansion of Uranium Mining what was wrong with that but he wasn't electable.

Bronco Lane I can not in good faith be careful of what I say.
Nor can I ever say what I do not believe, I do not believe in a Socialism that rewards theft.
While it may hurt your opinion of me sit down money is wrong.
I can not forget those who are work shy, who feed on the public purse are no less my enemy's than the million Aires who pay next to zero tax.
If every true Socialist in this country, every single one of them, voted only for such a party, I doubt they could win one senate seat.
Mark me firmly as a realist, I have true concerns at the weakened stance of some in the ALP on such as work choices.
But while they may forget, and a Medea prepared to lie says unions will get too much I have an understanding that government must govern for all or not be elected.
I constantly refer to free loaders who get the benefit of unions actions while not paying dues, in what way can you justify parasites who free load on Social Security?
A living pension for those in true need could come from savings.
The fact we debate among our selfs is proof most do not care about others.

Dear Belly and All Socialists as the reactionaries or traitors to the working class have conveniently slid away. In reply to your final conclusion:-Shouting in High Case-Bronco Lane I can not in good faith be careful of what I say. PARASITES OFF THE STATE THEY ARE A MINORITY IT IS THOSE THAT EARN OBSCENE SALARIES ARE THE PARASITES LIVING OFF THE WORKERS.
Nor can I ever say what I do not believe, I do not believe in a Socialism that rewards theft. IF THERE WAS A SYSTEM THAT HAD NO MEANS TESTING THEN YOUR OPINION WOULD HAVE NO MEANING
While it may hurt your opinion of me sit down money is wrong.
I can not forget those who are work shy, who feed on the public purse are no less my enemy's than the million Aires who pay next to zero tax.
If every true Socialist in this country, every single one of them, voted only for such a party, I doubt they could win one senate seat.
Mark me firmly as a realist, I have true concerns at the weakened stance of some in the ALP on such as work choices. YES DO THEY REALLY UNDERSTAND THAT AUSTRALIAN WORKPLACE AGREEMENTS IS THE METHOD THAT DIVIDES ALL WORKERS FROM EACH OTHER THE AGREEMENTS ARE SECRET AND THE BROWN NOSE MAY REAP THE HIGHER OFFERINGS.
But while they may forget, and a Medea prepared to lie says unions will get too much I have an understanding that government must govern for all or not be elected.
.

CONTINUED I constantly refer to free loaders who get the benefit of unions actions while not paying dues, in what way can you justify parasites who free load on Social Security? TOO TRUE HOW CAN THEY LIVE WITH THEMSELVES THEY WOULD NEVER MAKE SACRIFICES AND STAND UP TO AN UNREASONABLE EMPLOYER BUT THEY TAKE WHAT THE MARTYR HAS WON FOR THEM ALL. LOST PAY THROUGH WORKING TO RULE AND STANDING OUTSIDE ON THE PICKET LINE WHILE THEY SHAMEFULLY CROSS THE PICKET LINE SCABS AND BLACKLEGS ARE TOO NICE A WORD FOR THEM.
A living pension for those in true need could come from savings.
The fact we debate among our selfs is proof most do not care about others. YES YOU ARE RIGHT BELLY THERE IS NOW A SILENCE BUT THEN THEY ALWAYS GO SILENT WHEN THEY ARE SHWN FOR WHAT THEY ARE. JOE HOCKEY NO LONGER LOOKS THE GOOD GUY HE NOW APPEARS THE BUFFOON THAT HE IS. HOWARD HAS CERTAINLY PUT HIM IN THE HOT SEAT. BUT THEN KEVIN ANDREWS HAS MESSED UP EVERYTHING HE HAS TOUCHED. SO DID PETER REITH AND WE NEVER EVER SAW HIM AGAIN WITH HIS GERMAN SHEPHERDS AND BALACLAVA AGENT PROVOCATUERS

A solution to the problem of freeloading and compulsory unionism:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/compulsory-unionism.html

Belly - you speak of capitalism and socialism and point out they both co-exist, and how europe leans more toward socialism and America toward capitalism.

My point exactly. What you're describing is social libertarianism, which is effectively what is in place now, though it can drift toward classic libertarianism, or socialism.

I for one, think we need to drift a little more in a socialist direction - that's not saying we should become a socialist state, it's saying that perhaps we should acknowledge some things are better left to the government instead of private enterprise, to ensure equity of access among economic demographics.

Health, for instance - instead of offloading most of the duty onto private enterprise, insurance should be collected through taxes thus ensuring equity of access rather than a US system, which inevitably leads to insurance companies attempting to avoid payouts and a sector of society being uninsurable and not able to access proper health care.

This is a socialist concept - but say the word 'socialism' and you conjure images of communism amongst many of the politically unaware members of Australian society.

I urge readers to key in 'social libertarian' into wikipedia. Have a read, then ask yourself what style of political approach you favour.

You understand me fully Belly

And yes i have read the posts.

What we still have is a party that if you are not a good boy, or do as you are told you will be expelled, but then again this could be kevin rudd using the work choices legislation.

When the ALP stop and give choice back to their people i will change this stance but i believe that will not happen as hell will freeze over first.

Also dictating to the people, it was the labor party that created the policy, then again it is hard to find a rock hard policy that labor will use, it really is just heresay.

At least I am saying how i really feel without expulsion.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent Candidate for Charlton