Stunning but the years is 2018, not eleven 18.
A woman has spent ten years on death row
Because she drank out of a Muslim only cup, in a group of people thirsty and drinking.
Charged with BLASPHEMY!
She has been stopped from leaving that country, people have been murdered, for defending her
Her true crime may be that she is Christian.
Should we have the guts to bring her here
Should the world have the guts to demand Pakistan becomes a member of the universal community
Why while we put embargo on Iran North Korea do we still, in any way, trade with this country.

As unhappy as some will be about eight hundred years ago, give or take a century, Islam led in science and so much more.
Even then some in this faith found reason to kill others from that faith.
Like every faith [I believe in not one] internal rifts exist still.
And it is my view no country more than Pakistan, it needs to drag its faith and its teaching in to the modern world.
Horrific, even in the minds of many Muslims, acts of hate are every day in this country.
That cartoon thing, stirred up Pakistan more than in any country.
My memory is still of a man dressed in a dress, flogging an American made car, already on fire, in pure blind primitive hate.
A bigoted blind hate that should demand we not trade with,buy from that country until it enters this century

Islamophobe.

:)

That's Islam for you!

Dear Belly,

Colin Freeman writing for the Telegraph in the UK
tells us that the decision by Pakistan's Supreme
Court to spare the life of Asia Bibi, the farm
worker sentenced to hang for blasphemy, has been
hailed as "a candle in the darkness" for religious
freedom.

Colin Freeman points out that Islamic hardliners have
already been rioting in protest and such are the threats
against her that according to Freeman her first move after
leaving prison will be to leave Pakistan for good.

Those now baying for Mrs Bibi's blood, according to Freeman
are only a small proportion of Pakistani Society. It's the
same rent-a-mob that reliably turn out for the burnings of
the US flag and protest against Danish cartoonists.

We're told that the battle to wrest Pakistan from the extremists
has only just begun.

Long and troublesome road ahead.

Belly, who exactly are you referring to? Because if it's who I think it is, the reason she was charged with blasphemy was nothing to do with cups; it's simply that her neighbours falsely accused her of blasphemy.

And it is a terrible worry – Pakistan is the original source of the jihadism that currently plagues the world. But stopping trading with Pakistan would be deeply counterproductive: it would weaken the Pakistani government, thus giving even more power to the corrupt clerics.

Aden yes but it has been reported her crime was drinking from a Muslim only cup
Foxy thank for the reference
Mhaze, well is that weak post about what you think or just a weak effort to insult.
Pakistan is and has for some time been a school for training terrorists.
Even here in this country, the very worst type of Muslim send their children there for an education in hate, not a true education.
We fail trying import Democracy, or making war to try to gain control.
We must totally firmly block all trade with a country uninterested in human rights

last week a 4 year old girl was reportedly gang raped in India in hospital. One day people will wake up to why we have a civilised society in the West.

Belly,

"My memory is still of a man dressed in a dress,"

Shame on you, belittling the customs of a foreign country, how are we ever to find the middle ground about which you have been preaching.

Here are some gorgeous robes and cute names for a lovely dress.
Clerical clothing - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_clothing

The fact is of course, long term it is either them or us. There is no other alternative regardless of the squealing of the bleeding hearts.

If we don't toughen the hell up, & nuke these people out of existence, it is us who will be crushed out of existence.

We are OK, we are old enough that it won't happen to us, but if we don't develop some guts now, & take the necessary action, our grand kids are doing to die cursing us to hell.

Hasbeen is great. Canada and Australia united will never be defeated.
They do the north we get the south. Then we zap Canada. Buy Uranium.

All we can do is try to beat Pakistan at cricket. Imran Khan was a lot better cricketer than he is a politician

If we ever need evidence some thoughts are based on not understanding this thread is it.
Pakistan hide terrors, even Bin Garden they are if not the most primitive followers of Islam close to it.
Aiden my quote about the cup came from Al Jazeera, yes other story's may be true.
Making war has failed, always, a trade war maybe the answer.
I will not trouble myself with a defense after one of our truly closed minds again charges me with a silly unfounded insult

Belly,

"I will not trouble myself with a defense after one of our truly closed minds again charges me with a silly unfounded insult"

You wouldn't walk up to a kilted Highlander and tell him that he was wearing a dress?

Then, again, you might!

The sequence as I understand it was;
Bibi drank out of a cup the moslems had for drinking.
They ganged up and abused her for polluting the well by being a Christian and drinking from their cup.
She responded "What did Mohammad ever do to help people ?" or similar.
That was blasphemy, for which she had to die.
The women called the police and complained of her blasphemy so they
arrested and charged her.
Moslems consider infidels, that is you and me, to be impure and is why
they refuse to shake hands with us.

Bazz,

Perhaps what you say might be true for extremists
but certainly not for the ones I know and count as
friends who not only give me hugs but kisses as well.
We really shouldn't use sweeping generalisations
about groups of people. There are individual differences
in each group - including our own.

Foxy,

Except that Muslims will, as a general rule, when the crunch comes will follow Muhammad.

Foxy, my respected friend, please understand you will never NEVER, meet a more anti Islamophobia person than me.
Too that defending the indefensible, in this case the very heart of Islamic hate, is not going to do it.
Read my detractors words, see he is basing his comments on madness or a dislike of me that firmly closes his mind and eyes.
A truth that hurts, but remains the truth, needs airing,without change, this world faces even more hate, endless hate,
The Christian faith had its reformation, long long ago, Islam, in some countries some parts, never did.
Appeasing those parts will not stop hate, demanding they, not us, confront the hate and need for a direction for the future of their faith is not xenophobic, it is reality.
Another question for us all, if no God ever existed, as we teach our kids in school, why do we let phantoms breed hate?
Hate will drag this world into a war so horrific it will forever harm all humanity, confronting it is our duty, ignoring it will not work

The Sunni: Shi'a divide should consume their weapons budgets and energise election wars , particularly with Iran going nuclear. Syria, north Iraq and Yemen are rubble , god is great ( peace be upon him).
If battles over who should have been Mohammad's successor fuel wars 1300 years later it should be good to go for another century or two.

Is Mise,

I bet that those extremists, those fundamentalists,
who think they are following a religious leader
don't have any idea about who they are following.
They've been brain-washed to suit someone's political
agenda and are being controlled. And that probably
goes for all religious fanatics. Very few of them
actually know all that much about the religion that
they're supposed to be following.

Dear Belly,

We can't control how others behave -
all we can do is control our own behaviour - and reactions.
There's so much hatred in the world as it is. I think that
David F., philosophy of "Live and Let Live," is a good
one, even though sometimes it's not always easy to do -
when the right buttons are pushed, as I recently found out.
(smile).

Foxy if the haters in Pakistan believed as Davis F does I would agree.
Turning our backs or the other cheek to the ,man holding the knife is unwise
My not believing in any God is not a product of hate or dislike.
Millions share my view.
Understanding this hate is in defense of a shadow is frustrating

Put a fence around Pakistan with no gates !

The reason Christianity reformed from Romanism is because the people actually got to read the words of Christ for themselves; it is in the text.

The reason Islam cannot reform is because they read the text supposedly given by Allah and reformation is not part of the text. It is a death cult that murders infidels, Christians and Jews; It is in the text. The text sanctions rape, paedophilia, lying, submission of women, murder, and to criticise Islam for these acts is also blasphemy against Allah. Because their Allah has sanctioned these acts as part of the social order.

Forget bringing up nice people you know, they do not follow the text. It is the text that is corrupt as is its author.

http://www.facebook.com/pegidaiceland/videos/1920984924684900/?t=129

Report on the violence.

http://www.facebook.com/pegidaiceland/videos/1920984924684900/
Report on the violence.

I should have explained things more broadly in my
earlier post. Of course I fully realise that
Pakistan certainly has its problems. 200 million
people in the hands of a few family clans and a
watchful military. Unequality, and corruption
runs deep in this volatile, nuclear-armed Muslim
country.

However, in July's general election the
party of Imran Khan - Tehreek-e-Insai (the Movement
for Justice) , a grass roots organisation that Khan
founded 22 years ago, made a breakthrough winning the
largest number of seats in the National Assembly
and the Prime Ministership for Khan.

What happens next will be the real test. If you're an
optimist you have to hope that Khan will be able to
outsmart the religious conservatives. But that's taking
a lot at face value. The real test will be what he
actually does. Many people have put a lot of trust into
this man and if he lets them down - well I guess
Pakistan will be heading back to a dark and repressive
place. We can only hope that he will be able to achieve
something - especially for women in his country.

Josephus we get near agreement here, I know about Islam, its faults and in truth think it needs re-inventing.
Forgive me for my view, that no God ever existed
Had one, he/she would regard war in their name quite wrong.
Foxy your view is your right, nothing to defend in your words.

A day WILL COME when war between some Islamic countries and the west can not be avoided.
But IF we by trade embargo, solid enforced embargo, can turn some in new directions it can not be bad.
Inventing? why not invent a brand new God, one that offer every one equality, that demands and warns end to racism, promises if you offend some one from another faith because of that faith you will be reborn as a member of the very faith you harmed in this life

belly,
Invent a new God ? What a brilliant idea, the best one you've come up with so far. I'm all the way with you on that.
I'm sure if they really wanted peace everywhere they could soon find some old tablet that says there's a real God that denounces all violence & exploitation & greed will be punishe by taxation to be distributed by a real UN.

Belly, that God already exists. Just read the script.

indy, yes that [digging up a new stone] may be the way it works
josephus know old mate I read the book, bought up a Christian, consumed by the promises.
Becoming a born again, my transformation in to one of the biggest growing groups in our country Atheists, came with understanding it was a myth.
I know a Christian will be the first to offer help, that you maybe a great person.
Pakistan highlights some sections of every faith that ever existed, are breeding ground for hate,in defense of a God that never lived.
WHY would the one truth God let so many suffer because of the other Gods even you say never existed or do you think they all did?

.....

Ignoring the conversation centered around "starting another religion" or coming together as a whole to stand against religion because they believe in a god.

Ignoring that for the briefest of moments, I'd like to ask a simple question that was the title of this discussion.

What do we do with Pakistan?

-Is it the religion? If so, fine, what do we do with Islam?

-Is it the blasphemy laws? Fine, what do we do regarding that?

-Is it the actual country and that they promote terrorism within their country and their laws, as well as contribute to terrorism outside of the country? Definitely that one, what do we do about that.

Should Christians and other minorities in Pakistan be ostrized and arrested, even murdered without state justice caring? Seriously, where did this conversation get so muddled away from the topic? Any actual ideas on what to do?

//Any actual ideas on what to do?//

Build a time machine, go back and prevent the formation of the East India Company and the subsequent subjugation of the subcontinent.

So much forum time is devoted to discussing these outdated monotheistic religions with their mumbo jumbo practices, they are a bloody danger to society! Despite the great advancements of mankind in the secular world through genuine reasoning, we still have these pathetically superstitious religious with their nonsense beliefs grovelling around in the dark, looking for answers from a supposedly mystical being with supernatural powers. Give it a rest!

Paul,

We also have people who believe that the Stars affect their daily lives, just about every newspaper in the country has some space devoted to this superstitious rot.

Then there are the fortune tellers and clairvoyants; I've often wondered that if one punched a foreteller of the future, would it be sufficient defence that they knew that a punch would be coming their way?

Paul it is obvious you have nothing to contribute on, "how we deal with Pakistan?" First understand their thinking and laws, then determine what should Australia do? The East India Company has nothing to do with Islamic laws.

Issy, proof that fortune tellers are all bunk.

I was walking through a market one day and woman offered to tell my future for a price.
I said; "You can't tell the future, because if you could, you would know I don't believe that nonsense and wouldn't have bothered asking."

Josephus. according to Hassy we should nuk the lot, killing 200 million people, if that's it then there's not much I can add.

Surprising what you can say on this forum and get away with it, and what you can't.

" The East India Company has nothing to do with Islamic laws."

Indeed not, but it did have a lot to do with stopping the march of Islam.

runner,

"last week a 4 year old girl was reportedly gang raped in India in hospital. One day people will wake up to why we have a civilised society in the West"

Indeed it is great that we are so civilized, as the following figures shew:

Abortions (induced) per 1000 women (15 to 44 years).

Australia. 14.2
Canada. 13.7
France. 17.4
NZ. 18.2
UK. 14.2
US. 19.6

India. 2.2

http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/worldwide_abortion_statistics/

Care to comment on the relative degree of civilization?

NOW-NOW-SOON every question has been adressed in my posts
Before leaving the God is a fantasy thing may I?
In the freedom of religion laws we enforce, are my rights to not believe equal to others?
Pakistan, remember has only become a country long after the East India trading block stopped trading.
It wa part of India, and its people have the same blood,
It via its harsh take on a phantom God is driven by hate.

Belly,

The march of Islam was southward in India and The Company stopped it.

That which today is Pakistan was Moslem before the advent of the East India Company.

Is Mise

Abortions (induced) per 1000 women (15 to 44 years).

Australia. 14.2
Canada. 13.7
France. 17.4
NZ. 18.2
UK. 14.2
US. 19.6

India. 2.2

Care to comment on the relative degree of civilization?

Thanks Is Mise. It is very obvious that the more 'secular' we have become the more barbaric. Even the giving of young girls to uncles etc is not as low as the murder of the unborn. I am rightly chastised. Our unis that have been hijacked by feminist/secularist are very sick places. No wonder they are so much into vitrue signalling and identity politics. The pretense over concern for the planet using the man made gw scam is perfect example of how outwardly virtous people who are often so inwardly corrupt. Look at the liars who tried to prevent Kavannaugh from being elected to the high court in the US.

Dear runner,

Well you have excelled yourself. Your list shows the most 'Christian' of the Western nations you give figures for has the highest bloody abortion rate.

The US has the highest abortion rate but the lowest atheism rates of those you mention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion

Love to hear you thoughts as to why that would be and why you would think “It is very obvious that the more 'secular' we have become the more barbaric.”

"Care to comment on the relative degree of civilization?"

I've done so often. But I'd also like to comment on the relative propensity to fall for statistics that suit 'the cause'.

From the Lancet Global Health journal in December 2017, a paper titled ‘The incidence of abortion and unintended pregnancy in India, 2015'.
The results?
"This study estimates that 15.6 million abortions took place in India in 2015." of which only 22% took place in health facilities. "The study further found the abortion rate at 47 abortions per 1000 women aged 15-49 years."

But working hard to disparage your own society makes many feel so very superior.

Guess what folks. "We", whoever we are, can't 'do' anything about, with, to or for Pakistan; Pakistan itself only has the capability. Pakistan and it's Islamic government are loathesome. However, what they do in their own country is entirely their business.

Dear Steelie,

George Monboit writing for the The Guardian tells us that -

"Young people have sex, whatever their elders say - that
always have, and they always will. Those with the least
information and the least access to birth control are the
most likely to suffer unintended pregnancies. And what greater
incentive could there be for terminating a pregnancy than a
culture in which reproduction out of wedlock is a mortal sin?"

He explains further in the link given below:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/13/whos-driving-high-abortion-rates-religious-right

Is Mise
"The march of Islam was southward in India and The Company stopped it."

No the Anzacs drove tanks into jihadi cruise-missile submarine bases and made them pay for the Khyber Pass wall. Or something . Where do you buy your history blogs from?
Marathi beat Moghuls 1771 with GPS loaned by Capt Cook.

America has imposed many trade embargo,s, often in support of its interests.
My thought we should, on behalf of the mentioned woman, impose one on Pakistan is not unreasonable.
Many have been murdered because of their faith, and this country's twisted view of its own faith.
Funding and protecting terrorism we can and should tell them enough is enough

Dear Hasbeen,

You wrote;

“If we don't toughen the hell up, & nuke these people out of existence, it is us who will be crushed out of existence.”

You see I'm not sure exactly what distinguishes you from an Al Queda operative or supporter? I suspect nothing but perhaps you can enlighten us.

Belly
India and Pakistan are not really trying, hell hath no fury like a religion scorned:
"The partition displaced over 14 million people along religious lines, creating overwhelming refugee crises in the newly constituted dominions; there was large-scale violence, with estimates of loss of life accompanying or preceding the partition disputed and varying between several hundred thousand and two million".

Dear nicknamenick,

I wonder how that compared per capita to when there was a partition attempted in the now USA?

To Belly.

A trade embargo might be the only option so far outside of individuals moving to Pakistan themselves to try to change the country and culture. (Which likely will get them killed or at least arrested for blasphemy). Would they listen or would they dig their heals in farther to hate the west.

You asked if you are allowed to not believe in God. My answer is, am I allowed to believe in God? Does your opinion out rank mine, that yours can be shared but mine can not be? Consider the two topics in atheism so far in this conversation.

1) Get rid of all religions. Is that really an option shared with the intention that a person of faith is allowed to believe in God. Don't worry I'm not blocking your ability to not believe but that philosophy became popular it would block people of any faith from being able to express their faith without being oppressed. (That already exists in some countries. This would just be an atheistic oppressive stance instead of a state sponsored religion oppressive stance).
2) Make up a new religion. If you don't believe in a god, then how is lying about it by making up a religion any good? No good comes from these kinds of lies.

Here is my reasoning for saying to ignore those options. They are a distraction from the issue of injustice in Pakistan, and they won't help with a solution. If either of them were introduced to Pakistan I'd bet a high dollar they would both be a new cause to be arrested for blasphemy. So instead of following that line of conversation I tried to push the conversation back to Pakistan instead of to religion as a whole.

Be angry if you want. But if someone is allowed to say "get rid of all religions," then I (or anyone else) should also be allowed to say "bad idea." It's not blocking what your allowed to believe or not believe.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgkThdzX-8

Nice poem Toni, here's one more.

Now imagine life with all it's woes.
Disease, depression, divorce, widows and more.
In the world of peace there is still the world of woes.
Imagine those who face those woes
Imagine telling them "live for today," and see their reaction
Would the world of woes, loss, and despair be uplifted by those words
Spoken without loss?
Or would the world of woes be at a loss, drowning in a bed of tears
After all today there is despair, what hope is there?

As a person who's seen the dark side of depression I can say the advise to not care about heaven and "live for today" is a shallow grave instead of an uplifting hand. To those who have any handicap from vision, hearing, speed, or strength, the world is a battle just to be average, forget about excelling and living the dream. Not everyone is your super man, and can live in ease at the top of the world. To those in the world of despair, do to their choices or not of their own fault. What do you offer?

I have read all posts, always do,Not-Now,-soon, did you in any way, in my post see me challenge your right to be Christian?
If so it was not intentional
YES it remains my view faith, any/all of them, murderers in that faiths name.
Not all, in any faith, but some in all faiths
Move to Pakistan?
That would take a special kind of blind faith
We all could benefit from studying the partition that formed Pakistan, the horrific murders on both sides.
It alone is my evidence faith murders.
Right now hate, based on race,difference, faith, is a tool used to justify wars and worse.
My embargo BEGS for another way, deaths would result, but if we truly want change we will put humanity before any nations wish for power and influence that turns its back on the crimes of such countries

The trade embargo is an idea I would get behind Belly. You've answered your own question well. I just haven't seen any other suggestions. I agree that there should be an alternative in the face of "enough is enough," with regards to nations that harm their own citizens, and to nations that harbor terrorists that go abroad.

I don't think traveling to Pakistan would be a good idea either, but as for options that was the only other one I could think of. One risk with trade embargoes is the reaction North Korea has with the US. But it's still a risk I'd stand by. Better to remove our trade with murderers and criminals then to keep on going like everything's alright.

SR

Eating pork is involved with the rate of deaths.

English Civil war . Ireland 40%.
England 4% , Scotland 6%

More Americans died in the Civil War than both World Wars, Korea, and Vietnam combined, 2 % , = 6 million Americans dying today.

India Pakistan partition .6%

"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can"

Said the man with a $200 million net worth.

I note Toni sings to the Globalist tune. No countries, no borders the One World Government defined by a atheist socialist ideology. Like China who violates the borders of its neighbours, has murdered millions and incarcerates millions of opponents. Who leftists like Sam and Daniel are happily selling Australia.

'Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today'

yep we could all dump our wives for younger models, paedophiles can have guilt free sex and we could all ignore the moral conscience we have been given. Unfortunatley many of our problems are 'people are living for today' totally ignorant of consequences. John Lennon certainly delusional after ditching his first wife. Maybe he was a pioneer in virtue signalling.

And that would include clergy who cause abuses and refuse to commit to compensation which the government pays for?

Maybe it is on pod cast? ABC radio, this morning while out picking up my Melbourne cup winnings.
Either radio national or the mid north coast of NSW one Pakistan radicalism and this woman was the subject.
Trump has placed embargo on Iran,surely we should here two, on Pakistan
No trade no travel no sport, just sy no to such hate

runner,

Yes we could do everything that you suggest including
expecting to give up three to four years of our lives
working to foot the arms bill, while ever more people
suffer from illiteracy, ill health, chronic hunger, and
war.

Perhaps that's why we need new ways of thinking to cope with
the nuclear age. It is here that writers, and musicians,
and artists, with their concern for the human condition and
their splendid skills with language and music can enable us
to imagine the horrific reality of nuclear arms and nerve us
to build an alternative future.

"Imagine all the people living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one..."

War, sending others to die should not be the first or even second answer
If we used other methods and spent the arms budget on health and food, no one in the world need be untreated or hungry
Winners write the history just maybe, knowing Pakistan has nuclear weapons, we may not be the winners
The whole thought behind this thread is that Pakistan hates, we are or should be better than that.

lone ranger 865 has just attacked in Melbourne. Just happened by coincidence to be dress as a member of the religion of 'peace'.

runner,

You can get dressed up in whatever garb you like,
priest, police man, doctor, lawyer, cardinal,
nun, or judge, however it does not necessarily mean that
you're representing the profession or that you're
a good person. Your actions speak for themselves
and no one else. Heck, you may even turn out to be
a self-proclaimed Christian - whose behaviour is
not always according to what Christ teaches.
I'm sure you'll agree.

//Nice poem Toni, here's one more.//

No, after having done a quick comparison I can say that that now holds the coveted position of third-worst poetry in the Universe. Congratulations, you beat the Vogons. I'm not sure whether you should feel proud or ashamed.

You should keep practicing. With some hard work and dedication, you might be able to outdo the legendary Grunthos the Flatulent, Poet Master of the Azgoths of Kria.

//As a person who's seen the dark side of depression I can say the advise to not care about heaven and "live for today" is a shallow grave instead of an uplifting hand.//

As a person who has also lived with a black dog, I can say that that is a steaming load of dingo's kidneys. There is absolutely no research to suggest that a lack of belief in heaven is a barrier to overcoming depression. It certainly wasn't in my case. You're talking out your arse, mate.

//To those who have any handicap from vision, hearing, speed, or strength, the world is a battle just to be average, forget about excelling and living the dream.//

Did we listen to the same song? I don't recall John Lennon putting the boot into the disabled. Have you been listening to your records backwards, you naughty boy? Because if you are, that's Satan talking rather than John Lennon, and you'll burn in hell for it.

//To those in the world of despair, do to their choices or not of their own fault. What do you offer?//

For depressed people, I recommend:

1. Dogs. A bit of an unconventional treatment, but they have been shown to reduce stress in patients suffering a variety of ailments and I've found them to be helpful.
2. Exercise. A somewhat more conventional treatment. Also good for conditions entirely unrelated to depression. I'm less fond of this treatment because I'm not a gym person by nature, but even quite a lot of jogging beats the black dog.
3. Appropriate counselling. Cognitive behaviour therapy in particular; and definitely not psychoanalysis because that's quackery.
4. Drugs, man. I feel that anti-depressants should be used as a last resort, but we shouldn't be afraid of them where they are necessary.

Toni Lavis you will always be a target for runner and a few others.
You seem to know what you are talking about, rare for some here
Not trying to hurt any one, well aware true followers, the very best, from any faith are the very best people
Is it however a crime? to believe what our education system tells us? EVOLUTION made us
Can we blindly hate every Muslim, but ignore the Churches crimes against kids?
Can I ask? did those horrible grubs who did these things ever believe in God?
Do they if they do, still think he/she will forgive them? that they will go to heaven?
Do Christians return the blind all encompassing hate, SOME in Pakistan have for us?
Embargo now full on and first request? let Christian leave that country before the primitives murder them

Good tips on depression Toni. If we keep pets, exersize and someone to talk to that should help a lot of people. And those that don't help some medication is good too.

However, my point isn't just about depression. It's just an example that I am familiar with more. Live for today, and have no more religion are fine ideas if a person is on top of the world. For anyone else who has a need that isn't supplied by the government they often can go to a church passed or faith based orginization that offers help. From drug addiction and loss of a loved one, to community help for single parents, and getting connected to people when moving to a new location. Religion offersand so much help for the world, and encourages people to take part in that helpfulness.

Removing religion from the world won't mean it'll get replaced with something else that encourages to help people. Nor does live for today help anyone who isn't already in a wonderful state of life.

That is more my point then depression is. None the less, depression is a worth while topic. So to add on to what you've already said, here's a few more things that can help.

•Live for the hope of tomorrow, and know that whatever is going on now is temperory.
•live for the people who care for you too. A little responsibility can keep our demons at bay, because we have a responsibility to fill. So the little voice to give up in the face of depression can be countered by, "I can't do that to my family."

runner do not highlight that the dreadful grub was wearing a near dress, it offends some here
Just for one second put yourself in the shoes of this woman in Pakistan
See what Trump did on behalf of a Christian [he maybe no such thing America today is like that] held in another country.
Who? what country? has offered this woman a home

The spelling will be wrong, so sorry, a contributor here, spokesman for Islamic faith Kizer Trad
He has been quoted as saying *the comments of our PRIME MINISTER* and Victoria caretaker leader, *are unhelpful*
I have had a GUTFUL of the man,and every [world wide] Muslim who says how horrific a terrorist event is
Then follower up with that vile word BUT.
PM and Vic leader sid *we will not be dragged down by this act of hate,*
They said what our whole country said,
What I SAY AGAIN,this faith must come in to the twentieth century, must not think we are blind, *we know your holly book informs you it is ok to lie to us
Trad, Sir, if you are not born of this country in the name of moderation, we should take away your rights to citizenship and force you to leave
more to be said

I feel two monsters, standing behind me looking over my shoulder
PC that murderer of honest speech is both of them
It on one hand would stop honest debate on this subject.
On the other try to harm this forum because of my words
HONESTLY till death I will fight the blind hate Islamophobia .
Just think, in hating a whole faith we are just a bad if not worse than that group.
BUT some very big effort needs to be made by that faith, and us, to change the race to war.
Multiculturalism is not as good as integration.
Tell me the fifth generation Greeks from Melbourne rebuilding fire ravaged Greek homes are not too Australians
Why did we have to see a request that migrants adopt our ways turned in to this world wide destructive mess.
We if we are to avoid that war must demand an end to that VILE BUT an end to the he/she was insane,lie and too an end to forever and ever social security without a return to this country.
Hate will not do it, firmer demands on people, even deportation can

Belly.

I don't understand what your comment on Sunday, 11 November 2018 4:15:17 AM, is about. If that from a different thread, and if so where. It's also hard to get who's talking and being quoted, or when your responding to them.

...

As for having the ability to talk freely about this subject. What I've come to understand is that

1). The support of Islam and Muslims has it's points based on giving people a chance; that Islam is a minority and therefore needs protecting; and/or that Islamaphobia is a real thing and should be faught against.

2). The side that is against Islam and Muslims has it's points on the dangers that are seen and reported on, on the issues within Islam that might (or does) encourage the terrorism, rape and general crime that is part of the reports; and on the realization that if Islam is bad and creates these bad people, then it should be stood against and possibly feared.

PC only exists when one side says the other side has no right to say certian things, and to restrict what their saying. A long time ago this wasn't a bad thing it was just society trying to be polite and not push eachother's buttons. Now a days, not talking about a subject is the place of PC, instead of just to not be rude when talking about it.

But in order to really get through an issue sometimes it's needed to listen to people's anger and hate to find solutions. (Think of any argument that married people have).

... I should have added an explaination.

If a couple have an argument but one person is not allowed to voice their side, it will just fume inside of them. And won't resolve anything. Or they will break the rules to not talk about it even angrier that they were told to not to say what the real issues were.

That's essentially the dynamic of PC. Except PC is on a sociatial level instead of just two married people arguing.

Not-now-soon let me be clear, I do not like this faith
I do not like any faith
But Islam remains in the dark ages
Reason? we invented faiths, to comfort us in the dark, and explain death.
Islam is not a minor faith, as Christianity sheds its followers Islam may, if not now, be the biggest.
WHY? on behalf of a faith that would never let us do it in their countries, should we bend for Islam?
very different practices take place in the very different countrys Islam is seen in.
But again Islamophobia is not the answer, stronger action on active terrorists, their support base and those who preach hate in our countries is

" I don't recall John Lennon putting the boot into the disabled."

Nor do I.

Women on the other hand....
"I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved".

Apparently things were 'Getting Better' but not so much for Cynthia or Julian.

Belly,

"But again Islamophobia is not the answer, stronger action on active terrorists, their support base and those who preach hate in our countries is"

That's getting mighty close to outright Islamophobia.

While ever the Koran exists Islam is the enemy.

mhaze what can hate achieve? is hate blind to the good Muslim? are we any better we just hate
NNS asked about the first of two early morning posts, they are in my view linked to this one.
The blind hate in Melbourne, like the blind hate in Pakistan,comes [both] from a more primitive part of Islam
My view firmness, not PC DRIVEN INSANITY, IS THE ONLY ANSWER
we *THIS COUNTRY* exports bikers, who have criminal records, back to their birth country.
Is it asking too much? to send equal numbers, over 300, back for being part of radical hate Islamic groups?
WARNING America in time, will want to rebuild its unity, it may take decades
That country let hate become a tool for politics and it will not be removed easily

5 minutes ago, SBS News *Muslim community leaders* condemn the Prime Minister for his comments about radical Islam.
Try saying that in a Islamic country about their faith.
Some Muslims do not belong in any western country

Belly,

"Some Muslims do not belong in any western country"

You're getting there, just delete 'Some'.

Ise Mise good morning, can we look deeper at this? social media is, well has always been, full of constructed hate, for ISLAM.
even bright people [seemingly unaware they are being used] post constructed lies
The old * we are Australians, we celebrate Christmas Anzac day Easter*
False flag trash
Aimed at gathering hate Muslim support.
IF ANY Muslim, and it is IF [find me one] like that send them home now
However those false flags those who support them, are just as guilty of blind dumb hate as ISLAMISTS are
And we cannot blame a bigoted education!
Yes as said in threads about refugees and migration the left, if you must call us that, must and will harden up, the world will, currently many, too many, Muslim leaders are saying how bad these events are BUT! that filthy word BUT let us start sending them, the radicals, home enmass
Until new moderate leaders are found such Muslim leaders harm the community they say they speak for

To Is Mise.

In the regards to sending back Muslims, I agree with a stance like Belly's. Send them back to their home (if they are from a different country). Islam as itself I don't trust, and it seems like when it spreads more of the population gets radicalized into different crimes and acts of terror.

However, one value I think is worth protecting is to be hospitable to the foreigner and those traveling. Since many countries own their roots to immigration, (at least partially in their roots), then having a balance of welcoming is important.

To juggle the concerns for safety though perhaps not just sending people back to their country if they break the laws, but also to have new immigrants be required to learn the culture and history of Australia. Do this and pass a test to show the knowledge to gain citizenship. Or face being sent back.

I admit it's not the best approach to being welcoming and hospitable, but perhaps having something to restrict more migrants from coming in, without removing access completely might help before having to send them all back again.

To Belly.

Though you say you are against Islamaphobia, you seem to acknowledge many of the concerns with Islam that are how people are accused of being Islamaphobic. The fact that you acknowledge these concerns is a good sign in my opinion. The next step would be to find out an accurate discription of Islamaphobia and whether you see the merit to stand against it or acknowledge it.

As of now Islamiphobia is just a word thrown around to silence people's concerns. With that in mind, I'd recommend you to consider the term a method of enforcing poltical correctness philosophies. If I'm wrong about Islamaphobia being just an excuse to dismiss concerns, then so be it. But that is how Islamaphobia is used. Just some thoughts for you to consider.

"mhaze what can hate achieve? is hate blind to the good Muslim? are we any better we just hate"

I suspect you've got me confusd with someone else. Or you're just plain confused.

I haven't posted on Islam in this thread.

Reason being that I've grown weary of the discussion. It should have been obvious 15 years ago that our fetish about bringing in this alien culture was going to end in tears. It was to me and it was to many others. But too many relied on the hope (and that's all it was) that it'd all turn out OK because of their naive view that we're all humans and all humans think alike. Governments then took the road of least resistance, closed their eyes to the potential problems and chased the warm inner-glow and kudos by pretending culture doesn't matter. There's never been a successful multi-cultural society where all cultures are treated equally, but we were assured based on nothing but hope and fairy-floss that this time would be different.

So after 15 years of fretting over the nation taking the wrong path, I now adopt the Joker's stance and just sit back and watch the world burn. In the end there will be enough people who will have their eyes opened to reverse course. But a lot of blood and tears will be expended in the meantime and the aftermath won't be pretty.

I don't hate Mohammedans nor their religion. But I do think that their culture and their religion is wrong for us and cannot co-exist in our society. If they want to practice it in their homelands that's fine by me. But there is a clash of cultures when we allow them to bring their culture to our shores and then pretend that its of equal value to us as our own culture.

sorry mhaze, not -now soon I will not dispute my posts seem a bit like that.
As said I do not like the faith, do not like any faith
But of them all I dislike this one most,understand it once, led in matters of science and so much more
Know most of its followers are no threat
But the blind pursuit of hate, from both sides, based on lies, is maddening
What would the world look like if we all felt like that
We however must send those who are in any way home, even remove citizenship.
The rise of the very right, worldwide, is fueled by dislike of Islam, hopefully extreme Islam, but it will force other parties to move from a position of blindness to understanding they too must adopt harsher policies toward a madness that is called radical Islam.
Dare I ? it is all the more maddening to know/believe it all takes place in the name of Gods some know/think never existed

Thread is showing its age let it die, but not before I implore those not on the far right to think before supporting such as Pakistan
The rise of the right has been powered by distrust of refugees and migrants, not near the least by Muslim enclaves within our country's
Being a soft touch is not going to work
Confront radical Islam and Islamophobia always but do not confuse the issue being nice will not protect us

Belly,

Read the Qur'an.

ISE MISE, ARE WE THERE YET?
I know the Koran, for that matter the first Bible, are hate filled
Read the old testament.
But tell me, how could we, if we wished to, ever remove every Muslim from our country? the west?
Are you in fact asking me to become as blind, stupid, insane as radical Islam?
How do we avoid a horrific world war if our only answer to terrorism is returning their hate?
ScoMo may turn the polls around, because in this case he is spot on ,we Muslims too, must get very much harder with the lunatics in that faith.IF NOT WE FEED MORE MINDLESS HATE LIKE YOURS

Maybe this is the reason brave Australian Government won't offer asylum to Aisa Bibi...

"U.K. REFUSES ASYLUM FOR ASIA BIBI, FEARING MUSLIM 'UNREST'"

http://www.wnd.com/2018/11/u-k-refuses-asylum-for-asia-bibi-fearing-muslim-unrest/

When you have a part of the populations whose main form of counter-argument is to pull out the scimitar (or the bomb or the gun or the SUV) then governments which have already got used to surrendering are apt to do it with even less efforts at face-saving.

I've Had my facebook account stopped for posting this on Anne Aly MP.
"I have two read and marked copies of the Koran, and know it states to kill the Jews, Christians and Kafir, which Jews in England and America now have installed guards at Synagogues because of the action of Muslims of murdering Jews. I have contact with Christians in Pakistan, and reports on one Bibi in particular who Muslims want put to death as she drank from the same cup as Muslim women. I know well what Muslims are like by the very acts of ISIS or on Bourke Street Melbourne, by their behaviour in Western Sydney, and on the Colo River toward our Courts and laws. I have several former Muslims converted to Christianity as friends whose life is in danger by Muslims".

If Islam identifies and is offended with PM Morrisons words "Extreme Islam" Islam in Australia must be Extreme.

mhaze looks gutless to me, we must not become as bad as Pakistan is
Josephus look share much of your dislike of this faith, but can we think about this?
Some Muslims are dreadful, their holy book needs modernisation.
Can you truly tell me every one of them is a problem.
How would we remove them from the west
It is my view even if we wanted to we could not.
BUT we can and must, put an end to radicals in our western countries
Achieve what is achievable
Remind those Islamic holy men, currently targeting ScoMo IF WE did in Islamic countries what THEY say every day here, we would be killed

Belly,

You may have read the Qur'an but you do not seem to understand it; it cannot be modernised, for to attempt to do so would invite death as a blasphemer.

As my very good Muslim mate and fellow soldier,(we are each indebted to the other for our lives), says, the Australian Government are mad for having Muslim immigrants.
He knows his own people and is thankful that his family remained in India, his late father made the choice when he could have gone to Pakistan, but as he knew Ali Jinnah very well he decided that a majority Muslim country was not for him.
India eventually stripped the father of his titles but even that was a price that he was prepared to pay for reasonable stability.

Ise mise I am aware of that, but just as Christianity had its new testament believe the Koran needs it.
Islam has its refugees, people who stop living the faith, but as you say dare not talk of it or be the subject of bigoted murderers
May I? a goggle page exists that lists the stupid things some Muslims think are true
That coke a cola is a plan to make Muslim men impotent.
Maybe one day a holy man can be found to convince them to re-write that book

"Maybe one day a holy man can be found to convince them to re-write that book"

and in the meantime?

ise mise let us be honest we can not set up the ovens and gas them can we
As all faiths are man made you can bet we have not yet finished inventing them
Another will emerge one for all humanity
If you can sell Trump you can sell people anything
What are your proposals? how would you handle the Islamic fundamentalism?
War? that may come, already has,send them home, concentration camps,
I suspect we are part way to the solution, about ten years in to a 200 year plan to make us live together if we want it or not.