The very bad B grade movie Trumps America has become, has been coming for a long time,it has been trying to colonize the world in the interests of its own economic interests from its entry in to ww2,a country founded on migration, even famously telling the world to send its poor and suffering, it seems a different country now, is it worth saving? can any party make America UNITED again?

Truly think I have left my bias at home for this one, my generation knew we owed much to America, we mimicked them, followed them, thought of them as our heroes, Trump did not start that country.s decline, no not the rather silly tea party, it has been a long seemingly brain washing of it people as wealth became more important than people, for me at least America no longer is a country we should follow mimic or rely on.
Democrats contributed to the Trump victory by running an insider few wanted in Hillary, if there is hope it must be that they pick a leader who voters trust, and that post a big defeat Republicans return to a more moderate place in politics

Trump is saving America. 4% economic growth in 2018; jobs growth; better trade deals for the US; increase in defence spending; dumping the debilitating Paris Accord on climate; cutting US donations to the corrupt UN; pluckingly tackling North Korea; standing up to China; whittling away at the 3 trillion dollar debt incurred by Obama.

Outsiders and Trump-haters don't have a clue just how far down the gurgler the US was flushed by Clinton, Bush and Obama; nor do they know how angry voters were. Trump was/is the only hope for America, and it is extremely unfortunate that Australia does not have someone like him, because we are still going down the gurgler. Worry about Australia, not America.

post like the remind me we all have far different opinions, for that I am grateful and happy, Trump in my view will do more damage in his single term, it will be only one, than any American leader we have ever seen

Trump's been flogged to boredom, let's ask can Australia be saved ?

Dear Belly,

You're not wrong there.

Controversy, conflicts, and criticisms are part of his
worldview. And as a result American leadership on
environmental issues, free-trade pacts, peaceful
negotiations with emerging nuclear powers like North
Korea and Iran, and military alliances (in Europe and
Asia) are waning or have disappeared. China's role in
international diplomacy has increased. Europe and Asian
powers are now negotiating deals without Washington.

Domestically many Americans with lower incomes will have
a hard time with the assault on Obamacare and the efforts
to dismantle social care to pay for the new tax plan will
have disastrous affects. Harder to measure are the
consequences of Mr Trump's actions and attitude - for the
trust citizens now have in democracy both in the US and
internationally.

Can America be saved?

Hopefully yes, once this real-estate wheeler-dealer gets
kicked out. The sooner, the better.

Dear Belly,

«for me at least America no longer is a country we should follow mimic or rely on.»

Wonderful! I am glad that you arrived at this conclusion - for me America never was and why indeed would it?

I just hope that you do not change your mind again once the American democrats regain power.

Australia should become self-reliant - it is long overdue.

Foxy even if you do accept your view on the impacts of Trumps programs (I'm not a big fan but not nearly as negative about them as you) any "fix" relies on the Democrats actually paying some attention and fixing the kind of internal issues that made Trump a better option for many than their offering.

That does not appear to be the case at the moment. The entrenched powers have stayed in power within the party and if anything dug in even harder. They are isolating the actual liberals who should be expected to be their support base and not offering a viable alternative.

There is from what I see a move in the US to reform things but those driving it tend to find themselves on the outer. Often on the opposite side of politics to me but I like Jimmy Dore for his perspectives https://www.youtube.com/user/TYTComedy

Also a lot of time for Dave Rubin although in my view he has shifted camp so is not really a voice from "the other side".

R0bert

If I can be excused for using a pun, the whole world is "belly" up...:-)

Belly like Australia, the US has tried to absorb too many of the worlds poor and suffering, too much of it undeserving riff raff, that wanted only what they could grab for themselves, offering nothing to the country that took them in. We have done the same thing now for many years, & neither country is as strong, or generous as they once were. You can only be ripped off for so long, before you wake up & shut down the handouts.

The US is being saved right now, & this is probably the last chance for the US & the rest of the western world. If Trump doesn't have enough time to cut out the rot like the Clintons & Obama, it will collapse, & we will go with it.

I was looking at a site frequented by mostly pensioners today, & it is disgusting. Dozens carping that the pension is not enough for them to have the life they think they deserve. Demanding that young families, struggling themselves, pay more tax, so the pensioners can afford a holiday, & a little flutter on the horses on Saturday.

I doubt that even Trump is enough to drag a society now full of these ingrates out of the entitlement swamp that they have sunk into, he'll need a lot of help, but with the other lot trying to buy voters by even more handouts it is unlikely.

My post there that I find the pension very adequate even generous was attacked from every direction. I doubt we can now be saved, & if Trump doesn't manage it, no one ever will.

Hi Belly,
"Democrats contributed to the Trump victory by running an insider few wanted in Hilary".
That's not exactly what happened, Hillary bought control of the DNC when Obama left it in debt.

Can America be unified / saved?

No.

Individual: Can Australia be saved?

No.

There's too many reasons why I've come to this conclusion to explain easily right now.
Maybe tomorrow I'll try.

The question of can America (& Australia) be saved must of course be answered by the question from what ?
The obvious answer to that is, from it's own people & that answer in turn begs the question, are they really interested in saving the country when all they seem to be doing is running it into the ground. If they were really concerned why do they do what they do ?
If a car starts slowing down up a hill one obviously has to put the accelerator down to keep rolling & when it goes downhill & starts to speed up you put your foot on the brake to prevent a catstrophy.
What most 'progressives' seem to be doing is exactly the opposite. With that going on the answer to the original question is a resounding NO !

We, at least our governments, still follow America, world trade love it or loath it, is the basic need of every country now, our very lucky country term came about because of it,America remains the country that had its CIA murder the people of Chile, in the service of its business interests, Trump like it or not, continues this trend, Hillary, her running for the white house, should warn us America so far picks its leaders from long lines of insiders, some right now think picking a celebrity, is the answer, American voters have long ago, lost contact with the reality of politics and its importance, Trump risks a huge lemming like march to a huge GFC his country will suffer the most from

The US produces little the world needs and is sanctioning itself into total irrelevance.
The US has interfered in 81 elections in 47 countries since the CIA began in 1947.

Dear Belly,

«America remains the country that had its CIA murder the people of Chile»

Let alone such extreme dramatic events - when we in Australia try to visit an Australian website, say a bank http://202.2.56.40 or government, http://161.146.235.225, the routers that convert those numbers into physical location of servers to ensure that we get to the correct site, are located in the USA. If they like they can disable or divert them at any time.

And when I in Australia buy religious DVDs from India and made in India, every time before I can start viewing them I am forced to wait for the compulsory notice by the American FBI.

Sadly, this very website is hosted in the USA.

Australia is so lucky to have all the resources it needs to survive and be well on its own, except one - self-defence. Once we develop our own nuclear and biological weapons (and delivery systems), we will no longer even need to know who the president of the united states happens to be.

Dear Belly,

America is certainly different from the way I
remember it. As you know - I worked and lived
there for close to ten years. What America needs
is a President who would genuinely try to bind
all wounds. A President for all Americans.
But under Trump America is as divided as ever.

The majority of Americans didn't vote for the
President. Hilary Clinton won the popular vote by
a margin of 2.8 million. They need to fix their
electoral system so that this does not happen again.

No; Australia can't be saved because the two major political parties will not work as one, in important matters that are advantageous to all Australians. I firmly believe we've got the worst pack of politicians in my living memory, many of them only in it for what they can get out of it.

If a special team of skilled investigators were given the opportunity to investigate all dimensions of our politicians, and the executive level of the government bureaucracy, you'd tie up the courts for years! As TTBN has opined, the dreadful damage occasioned against the American people by Messrs Clinton & Obama can be juxtaposed to that of Mr Rudd, Ms Gillard, & Mr Rudd again.

In fact a friend of mine with the FBI, who's a retired SSA said, Mr Obama did more to wind back many of the Bureaus successes, and developmental initiatives, than any other President in the past forty odd years. Yet so many people liked him. As my friend said, he's nothing but a 'snake oil salesman', and many believe him.

I'm fortunate, I'll be dead. Nevertheless, I lament for what those who are close to me will have to endure at the hands of those mendacious, corrupt political leaders of ours.

As an aside - No one should be able to pursue or enter public life unless first, they've undertaken a minimum of ten years of work, outside politics altogether.

" the routers..., are located in the USA. If they like they can disable or divert them at any time."

Utterly wrong Yuyutsu. Here's a map of DNS locations...
http://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=2.886389283733512%2C7.896813000000066&spn=142.883537%2C288.632813&hl=en&msa=0&z=2&ie=UTF8&om=1&mid=1LcHEpzl-7RzziWzDa4h3BxJcbEo

Unfortunately even though it is utterly wrong it was one of the more accurate bits of rubbish written in this thread. Belly tells us, sans even an attempt at evidence that the US "been trying to colonize the world in the interests of its own economic interests from its entry in to ww2". And poor poor Foxy continues to allow herself to be deceived by her usual sources.

Those who fail to recognise the successes that Trump has so far chalked up have several reasons for that failure. For some, they were simply anti-Trump from the beginning and acknowledging his successes would confirm their error of judgement,and they'll never do that.

For others, a Trump success means that their understanding of the world is invalidated. eg if cutting taxes leads to economic growth, whole swathes of the left's beliefs are discredited, and they can't abide that. Or if Trump's 'maximum pressure' policy against North Korea succeeds where Clinton/Bush/Obama failed, then the left's understanding of how the world works will be invalidated. And they'd rather allow Kim to keep his nukes than be shown to be clueless.

Trump's been in power for 500 days and his successes are significant. If he continues down this path he will indeed make MAGA and a significant portion of the US electorate will sign up, while the die-hard anti-Trumpites wonder how they got it so wrong.

Meanwhile, just as large parts of thw world eventually followed Reagan's lead, similarly others will follow Trump's policy prescriptions.

Well said mhaze.

I lament with you o sung wu

Trump has created for himself a world view where
he sees himself as a leader - who makes deals.
He sees others either trying to make use of the US
or are unhappy about getting a worse deal because they
are not as powerful as the US. Controversy, conflicts
and criticism (by losers) are part of his take on the
world. Everything that the US used to stand is now
being slowly eroded. However Europe and Asian powers are
now negotiating without Washington. Trust that people used
to have in the US both in the country and internationally
is disappearing. Sad state of affairs. And things do
have to change.

Here's the way it works in the mind of the average SJW/anti-Trumpite...

Recent poll found 47% of voters believe race relations are bad since Trump’s election.

OMG this is a disaster. However will the US survive. Trump is just the worst president ever.

Same poll in 2016 found that 60% of voters believe race relations are worse since Obama’s election.

SJW reaction - nothing to see here. Move along. Isn't the Obamessiah just wonderful.

T'was always thus.

mhaze,
Although you are correct that Yuyutsu's wrong, your map is not evidence of this as he was referring to routers not root domain name servers. There are a lot more of the former (so it's even less dependent on the USA) but they can be targets for hackers, and they certainly have been in the past.

Dear Mhaze,

There is a difference between DNS servers and IP-level routers.

DNS servers convert web-names (e.g. "forum.onlineopion.com.au") into 32-bit IP addresses. DNS servers are indeed present around the globe and not only that, they can easily be replaced by our ISPs (and even by individual users). Alternately, users may supply the IP addresses directly.

Directing IP addresses into physical network channels that end up at the desired server, however, is done by CISCO routers. The top-level CISCO routers are located in the USA and the firmware of local CISCO routers is programmed to contact them - and even to replace itself from them as new versions emerge.

Belly,

The politics in America has become extremely divisive, (as it has in Aus) with the left drifting further left, and the conservatives consolidating their power.

Trump did not win so much as Hillary lost. Although she was supposedly extremely qualified, she carried a lot of baggage, and many Democrats could not stand her. If anything it should be a big wake up call to the elites that they are not born to rule.

After ww2 America spent vast amounts of money rebuilding most of the rest of the world including giving most countries far more favourable trading terms than were reciprocated. This has been a point of resentment especially as many countries have built up their economies at America's expense. While I don't agree with the way Trump has proceeded, he has certainly shaken the tree and put the world on notice that it will not be business as usual.

As others have pointed out, in spite of the controversies, Trump has certainly put more than a few runs on the board.

Dear mhaze,

This should be easy for you. Please name your top 3 Trump successes so far.

That post Shadow Minister could have one of mine, agree with every word, here in this thread, you can find why Trump was elected, and why world politics is at a low ebb, opinions firmly grasped but with no relation to truth are free and many have them, even here.
RE American financial colonization,Lend lease during the darkest days of ww2 saw America take every bit of gold England could muster,then its bases[trade] yes after it became involved, and helped Russia win the war in Europe, they did great things, the Marshall plan rebuilding that continent, the Colombo plan helping Asia can any one tell me honestly, they would do either right now? Trump wants to build a wall, if it would keep him out of Mexico they should pay for it the coming trade war will hurt

Dear Shadow minister,

This should be easy for you too. Name 3 runs that Trump has on the board.

As America is, most unfortunately Trump suits America, and most unfortunately America suits Trump. You reap what you sow.

Steele, will you settle for two.....one....possibly none?

America is in my view not a country to trust any more if it ever was post Trump it will take at least a decade to return it to trustworthy if they try very hard,it is such a divided country it may be impossible,it is my view some force is at work trying to blend humanity in to one, but it clearly is not America, increasing racist in its every day life and law that country is on a slide down wards

Hi Belly?
Clearly not America?

Here's a question for you?
Given that it can be proven George Soros worked in concert with the US State Department to overthrow Ukraine;
Should George Soros and his 'Open Borders' policies and operations then not be considered an extension of US foreign policy?

Hey SteeleRedux
1. Built (or building) the wall / prevented illegal immigration.
2. Exposed the workings of the Deep State.
3. Slowed the March of the lunatic left, made it safer to speak our minds and stand up to political correctness and Islamic Extremism.
4. Stands up to and exposes pedophilia
5. Tries to restart US industries and bring back jobs.

There's 5... however;

Trump made the mistake of keeping people on from the Obama administration, and he's also dealing with intelligence agencies that think they are beyond the law and members of Congress who care more about using their positions in government to amass personal wealth.

That said Trump's still been a bit of a disappointment, but still miles ahead of Hillary.

I support him domestically, but oppose much of his neoconservative foreign policy.

Rudd/Gillard totally undid Howards reign of economic diligence in a couple of years. The country now needs decades to pay back debt if ever. No doubt some liberal/marxist could also undo Trump's great work in no time. The uni's have dumbed down enough people and filled all areas of influence with fools who can't do basic sums. The renewables scam which has pushed electricity prices in Australia from the lowest to nearly the highest in the world is a good example of how dumbed down a nation can become in a very short period of time. Even Josh frydenberg has swallowed the cool aid.

OK, SR, I'll play.

There are many successes but I list those with the most long-term consequences...

1. The Middle East. Defeat of ISIS in Iraq which Obama said would take years. Move the embassy to Israel's capital. Encourage Saudi to begin to join the 20th century. Creation of an anti-Iran coalition of various M-E states including (unofficially) Israel. Withdraw from the Iran 'deal'.

2. The various tax cuts which have boosted wages and the economy while simultaneously getting rid of the Obamacare individual mandate and curtailing the subsidies payed by low tax states to high tax states by limiting the deductibles for state taxes.

3. Neil Gorsuch.

These three will have major positive effects for years or even decades to come.

I'd also mention, in passing, Trump's success in fostering and amplifying TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome). Not really a policy but it does provide a daily dose of mirth at the expense of the left.

Hey mhaze,
In fairness I don't think your number 1 counts.
The US didn't defeat ISIS, though they played a part in Iraq.
Assad defeated them in Syria with the help of Russia, Iran and Hezbollah.
US wasn't even bombing ISIS oil convoys till Russia entered the war and the US had been there for 18mths.
ISIS is a tool of US foreign policy, as is Soros.
The embassy in Israel doesn't MAGA. That's MIGA.
Israel first policy goes against US citizens interests.
US wars are all about US hegemony.

SR,

That's easy:

1 After Obama's cowardice that essentially gave Assad a free hand to gas his citizens, Trump's strikes reversed this.

2 Trump's threat of a trade war has brought China to reduce tariffs on American goods and to the negotiating table,

3 Trump's ramped up sanctions on North Korea incl sanctions on companies dealing with NK has brought NK to the brink of ruin and to the negotiating table.

The fact that the US economy is now going well is also a feather in his cap.

ETC,

Hi Shadow Minister,
Number 1 doesn't count, Assad wasn't gassing his own people, they were false flags and the US is a participant in removing Assad.
Google 'Syrian Emergency Task Force'.
Number 2. It's hard to say if protectionism is the best policy for the US given tariffs are just another kind of economic sanction and the world's getting fed up with the US acting like the world's economic policeman. though restarting industries to reduce energy costs and provide jobs is a good thing.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/qz.com/1244638/china-tariffs-trump-gets-the-reciprocity-hes-been-asking-for/amp/
His cancellation of the Iran nuclear deal sends all of Iran's oil to Europe TO China instead.
Number 3. We'll have to see what happens in NK, but I doubt the US has any real intention of leaving SK, any more than it intends to leave Syria now that ISIS is defeated. For that reason I don't really think Kim's really planning to give up his nukes either.

You guys gotta get some real news...
Try this: http://youtu.be/qnf5ExOheLk

Robert Keohane - a professor of international affairs
at Princeton states that -

"A society that is as divided as the United States is
now cannot long maintain a position of global hegemony
or global dominion. We'll have to come to some sort of
agreement or it'll be China making the rules."

Apparently a damning new Gallup poll shows how the
perception of the US has changed under Trump.

Here's what Americans think of Trump:

http://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/politico-concult-poll/

Last updated 07/06/2018.

apologies for the typo - here's the link again:

http://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/politico-consult-poll/

Third try:

http://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/politico-morning-consult-poll/

A great deal depends on the current youth rebellion over gun control, they may do far more to return America to a western Democracy than any other group, mid term election will tell us if they have started or like the 60,s generation failed, while waiting Australia should re consider its defense options not blindly follow that country

I'd be careful of believing stories of a blue-wave Foxy.
It wasn't too long ago you and many others fell for the same line.

The reason Trump won was because the sound of "Lock her up" was louder than what your news articles were reporting.

They were all propaganda trying to create news rather than report it.

Dear AC,

Actually, having lived and worked in the US for close
to ten years - I am
well aware of what's BS and what isn't.

Perhaps you need to broaden your own outlook and
read from a variety of reputable sources - as I have
always done.

Dear Belly,

Our hope is with America's youth.

The Vietnam war came to an end largely as a result
of the antiwar movement, a social movement that
consisted disproportionately of young people,
including many college students. When the antiwar
movement first challenged the war, it received
little support from politicians or the press, and the
goals seemed hopeless. But the tide of public opinion
gradually began to shift. In the 1968 presidential
primaries, an antiwar candidate backed the student volunteers
did unexpectedly well and President Johnson decided not to
run for re-election. From that point on, political debate
on the war focused not on how to stay in it, but on how
to get out of it.

Through collective action, ordinary people with few resources
other than their own determination had changed a national
consensus for war to a national consensus for peace.

A fundamental insight of sociology is that once people no
longer take their world for granted, but instead understand
the social authority of their lives and futures, they can
become an irresistible force in history.

We can only hope that whether American choose to destroy
their civilisation or save it - this is a collective
decision - and we trust that will be made sooner than later

Foxy, that doesn't mean anything.
Living somewhere doesn't necessarily make you informed.
Only getting the right information does.

Tell me if living somewhere makes you informed; then what do you know of Alexander Downers relationship with discredited FBI counter-intelligence officer Peter Strzok in relation to the Russia collusion investigation...

Not trying to be rude or anything, but you don't.
Have you been following Spygate since before the US elections?
I have, it's now day 602.
http://youtu.be/y25AkGFdexc

I've told you all my sources before.
Infowars, What Really Happened, George Webb channel on YouTube, and X22 Report plus I have developed a 6th sense now.
I can smell something foul a mile away.

My sources keep me informed.
Yours keep you in the dark.

My media can't be bought.
Yours is paid for.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-07/george-soros-wastes-millions-backing-losing-candidates-california-da-races

Oh look Blue states turning Red.

Dear AC,

I not only lived there I worked on a university campus
had had the privilege of having access to the best
and the brightest. I also travelled extensively and
met and interviewed many well-known political figures.
So kindly don't tell me what I know and what you know.
This is not a competition or a battle of some sort.
What I know - you have yet to find out. What you know
doesn't interest me. It's far too narrow.

Trump and his supporters are not a source of information to be trusted support Foxy on this

Thanks Belly.

Trump has been at it again over night Tweeting, the TWIT insists on massaging his miss placed ego this way, and rubbing other world leaders the wrong way, are we bound for a world trade war? or is he again saying one thing doing another?

"Trump and his supporters are not a source of information to be trusted support Foxy on this"

Belly likewise the mainstream media, the Democrats and their supporters are not to be trusted. Have a look at the Wikileaks material (and as I understand it none of their material has even been shown to be fabricated).

Whilst there is the possibility of editorial manipulation the Project Veritas material is telling in regard to the media's role. In my view enough of the captured video appears to contain the context (extended shoots) to make the editorial manipulation argument appear to be clutching at straws rather than a genuine reason to ignore it.

Have a listen to people like John Pilger and others from the left who are deeply concerned about these issues. There was some great work by Christopher Hitchins on the Clintons. In particular for those who thought of Hillary as some great step forward for women a look at his work on Hillary's alleged role in silencing women allegedly assaulted by Bill is worth a look.

Perhaps a look at Jill Stein's interviews in the lead up to the last US election around the relative risks of Trump and Clinton.

This is not a zero sum game where it's just Trump bad and no problems with the alternatives and nothing I'm seeing suggest that either the Democrats or most of those most vocal in their opposition to Trump suggests that they have learned anything.

R0bert

Actually, having lived and worked in the US for close
to ten years -
Foxy,
According to a later one of your posts you lived on a university campus in America, that's a looong shot from living in America.
Same goes for 95% of Academics anywhere in the world. These so-called finest & bright are the ones who have been on the forefront of influencing all policy making as "experts", they have been & are on the fore front of scare mongering in all matters environmental, they're responsible for PC, they're responsible for just about every failed social experiment, the list is endless.
They have proven to those who can think that less than a handful of them are capable of sound logic.
They have ruined politics & are ruining economics globally. They have to be banned from anything political because all they can produce is disunity.

individual,

I no longer read that woman's bs posts, but you say that she has been at it again with her vast 'experience'. If she had done the things she claims to have done she would be older than Methuselah. Before I gave her away as a bad job, she said that she was semi-retired, so that doesn't fit in with her claimed 'experiences'. I have always thought of her as some sort of library assistant, probably posting at work in the employer's time. Anonymous people can make all sorts of wild claims about themselves. There are more than one of the bull artists here who think we believe them.

ttbn,

Unlike you I speak from experience. My husband and I
did live and work in the United States for close
to ten years. Our children were born in Los Angeles.
I worked at the University of Southern California.
We travelled all over the States including Mexico
and Canada. On our return to Australia - our experiences
again were very varied. My current working experiences
have slowed me down a bit due to my ill-health - but I
still manage to remain active. Whether you believe what
I post - is of no concern to me. I don't need your approval
nor do I seek it. As for my age? You're the one who seems
concerned about it. Which to me indicates that you're
mentally and physically a neanderthal. Because it
appears that it's not occurred to you that some people
are capable of achieving a great deal at a young age.
And they continue to do so for the rest of their lives.
Unfortunately you're not one of them.

Hey Belly,
Trump and his supporters are not a source of information to be trusted support Foxy on this"

Well I suppose that's one way to try to win arguments.

I honestly feel obliged to help you.
Everyone, please don't believe anything I say on face value, I encourage you all to look into things and find out for yourselves.

There hope that helps.

Now did you confirm whether Soros was involved in the overthrow of Yanukovich assisted by Nuland and the State Department to confirm and acknowledge my earlier comment, or do you have selected hearing?

I really hope the above comment isn't a sad indication of your iq, and future comments, but I suppose you do support Labor so we shouldn't expect too much.

For those suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome, Trump's approval rating has just hit 50%.

Need to see the poll its source and group polled to believe that, Trump should be a warning to us all, not taking and interest or under standing politics can have dreadful results, mid terms will judge if America can be saved

According to a new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll
Trump's figures have gone up a little bit to 44%.
However voters say they want Democrats to control
Congress. The poll found that 53% of voters want
Congressional candidates that will serve as a check to
the President's power. They said that they are less
likely to support a candidate who backs Trump.

Interesting.

saw the slanted insults Foxy, found it showed more about the posters than you, God save America some one must

Dear Belly,

Take no notice of that toxic poster. His reputation is
well known on this forum. I wrote on another discussion that
freedom of speech is one of the corner stones of our
society, and it is a principle worth defending.

Unfortunately complete butt-holes and bullies (as we know)
are also a corner stone of our society (especially on the
internet) and will definitely be here until our dying breath.

And when the latter gets a hold of the former they invoke
it improperly and indiscriminately, like a toddler with a
new word or a monkey with a shot-gun. The internet for
some is a safe haven (they sit behind the anonymity of
their computer screens - bless 'em). They can spread
disinformation and hate to their heart's content. What they
really deserve is a black eye. Because as we know nobody
has the freedom to say what they want without any
consequences. None of us has to support someone else's
shyte.

Democrats are just trying to push the whole fake Russian collusion narrative right up to the midterms, trying to take the house and impeach Trump.

Belly,

So sorry that I cannot provide you with the actual survey, but I get the impression that you would only accept one that gave you the results you wanted to hear.

AC,

The fake Russian narrative, as you so tightly call it, is just a cover up for the real domestic conspiracy against Trump.

Dear Armchair Critic,

No. It's not the Democrats.

It's Robert Mueller - the sixth Director of the FBI.
And a Conservative Republican whose conducting
the investigation.

It's currently screening at 8.10 on Channel 24 -
Four Corners. Part two is on tonight if you're
interested. I watched Part I - last week.
Riveting stuff. But not for the faint-hearted.
Part three - next week.

How or why would you need to save a country who supposedly lives by the mantra 'In God we Trust'
Now most 'mericans are law abiding citizens, depending on how you interpret the law.
Most 'mericans simply want to live a life free of conflict, just like the rest of us, and most of them do this by avoiding the news media which is both good and bad.
If they follow Foxtel they're going to live a life of being wary and fearful based on conjecture, supposition and downright lies, called alternative facts.
Most immigrants want to go to 'merica for economic reasons an some figure better live in a country that drops the bombs rather than in one on the receiving end.
Most 'mericans have little idea as to the rest of the world beyond those countries being touted as 'good' or 'bad'.
Personally I view majority of 'mericans as respectful, well mannered, God fearing yokels that have little idea as to what is happening around the world and are quite happy to accept their Govt's story on most things.

So what's to save?

Hilary supporters still having dummy spits. Get over it.

It seems official, Russia has won the post cold war influence war, it over night got the support of its bromance partner Trump to return to the G7 over looking its behavior that had it removed,and!and the very people who should fear this the most are supporting Trump?

I watched the 4 Corners all innuendo no hard evidence of criminal activity. Unlike Hillary who sold American Uranium to Russia and pocketed the money into the Clinton Foundation. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-09/trump-orders-officials-not-to-endorse-g-7-s-final-statement https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html That Trump investments also sought development in Russia is not a Criminal act, that 4 Corners imagines.

Hi Foxy,
I watched the Four Corners Trump / Russia Episode 1
I figured at the very least I'd get a handle on the ABC's reporting.
When in the first few minutes we had Rod Rosenstein talking about two Russian 'spies' (Krylova and Bogacheva) followed by James Clapper saying the level Russia went to for election tampering "made him ill", I almost turned it off.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-03/clapper-us-meddled-foreign-elections-and-conducted-regime-change-best-interests

I though 'Great, having these guys investigate is like asking asking Charles Manson to investigate his own murders...'.

You do realise that these guys are desperate to try to cover up their own wrongdoing?
Remember, this wasn't supposed to happen;
(FBI caught spying on Trump campaign - look up Operation Crossfire Hurricane, Steven Halper - and my guess it was actually planned for 2012 but Trump didn't end up running.)
Hillary was supposed to win.

Do you not realise that they are playing you (YES YOU FOXY) for an idiot - because THEY KNOW you don't know any better?

So then we go to Felix Sater...
Who is admittedly an FBI asset for two decades, (under Meuller) and you don't think that he was trying to set Trump up.
Business deals to 'rent' Crimea to Russia, and build Trump Tower in Moscow all ok'd by Putin he said, just need a signature and were admitted lies?

Anyway...

Hey Belly,
Russia G8?
I was wondering why Bibi was over grovelling to Putin recently...
Russia said they didn't ask to get back in the G8'.
Obviously not gonna help him with his nuclear deal mess.
'End the sanctions nitwits'
US still says Russia 'annexed' Crimea though.

FBI Deputy Director McCabe Says will Sue Trump

http://www.google.com.au/amp/thehill.com/homenews/administration/384152-mccabe-to-sue-trump-admin-for-defamation-wrongful-termination%3famp

FBI Deputy Director McCabe Begs For Immunity
http://www.google.com.au/amp/insider.foxnews.com/amp/article/61957

That first Four Corners Trump / Russia Episode was called 'Follow the Money'.

You know I've heard that somewhere before.
It's what Eric Braverman, former CEO of the Clinton Foundation said, and that is exactly where the real Four Corners story shouldve started.

The only decent part was the end, when Roger Stone dutifully relayed that the Russian Collusion story was all lies, and the biggest hoax in history.

Dear AC,

It's amazing how we can get different takes on things.
I shall definitely be watching part 2 of this series
on Monday night at 8.30pm on channel 2. I find it
riveting. You didn't find Felix Sater's story rather
interesting - and what he's done for Trump? I'd
certainly like to see what Robert Mueller comes up on
that man.

Hi Foxy,
"It's amazing how we can get different takes on things".

Well maybe I'm being a bit harsh with you about it.
You probably don't know anything other to trust and believe those in authority, so you believe them without question.
As for me, I did the conspiracy thing a decade or more back (so I don't automatically believe what I'm told) and I managed to mostly keep my feet on the ground, before I kind of became more interested in geopolitical issues.
As well as that I really have watched hundreds of hours of videos of backstory on this whole Trump saga since before the elections, so I should know, but I actually feel like an idiot that I can't easily convey a simple summary of all I've learned.
So many people, alphabet agencies, shell companiea, smoke and mirrors, spying, deception, lies and crimes.

I know the next episode mentions Carter Page, it will no doubt mention the others Steven Halper, Michael Flynn, George Papadopoulos (met with Alexander Downer and was the 'supposed' reason for the 'Russia Collusion Investigation', only the FBI's spying on Trump 'Crossfire Hurricane' started much earlier than that I think.)
Maybe they'll mention FISA warrants and the Christopher Steele 'PP' dossier.

Stories like these Foxy, it's not what they are telling so much as all the stuff they aren't telling you.
The DNC was NOT hacked.
It's been proven to be a leak and we know this because the data transfer rate at the time the data was accessed was too fast to be over the internet.
It was transferred to USB or hard drive, therefore it was a leak not a hack.
Still to this day the DNC will not allow examination of those servers.
I'm pretty sure the second episode is available online or on iView.

You can dislike Trump all you like, don't let me stop you.
But these people aren't telling you the full story, they are telling you only what they want you to hear (and not doing a real good job)

Hey Josephus,
Do you know how you add your links..
On a URL or web address the 'http' or 'https' is known as the protocol.
It stands for 'Hyper Text Transfer Protocol' and the 's' denotes 'secure'.
This website (OLO) won't recognise the 'https' as a link, so if you add a URL (link) with 'https' as the protocol, then this website will not recognise it as a link and display it as plain text instead.
To fix it and make your links work normally, just take off the 's'.
It should still work fine but will now display on the website as a link.

Putin may have installed Trump in the White house, well did, but Trump installed Germany's leader in to the leader of the free world roll, saw the stare down Trump looked like he had a splinter in a bad place

I wonder if fact & truth have a tiny part in the script of that show !

This is why I know more about the Russia collusion / Spygate story than any other forum member, or at least I should.
http://youtu.be/2iZKsNKU4-s
I have not watched all 2900+ videos in the series, (updated daily) but I have watched a significant amount, maybe a quarter of them, I've been following the story since before the US elections.
Here's a sample video from around that time.
http://youtu.be/lc45mbeAMNI

George Webb's coverage of this story started when Eric Braverman former CEO of the Clinton Foundation went missing for months.
Look here Foxy, 'Follow the Money'.
http://youtu.be/JJv8MmYDDH0

I didn't start watching till around Day 60, it's now Day 604.

Dear AC and individual,

Robert Mueller was among other things the director of the
FBI. He's also a Conservative and a Republican. Truth
and facts are part of his training and ethos. He shall
get to the crux of his investigation.

AC testing:

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-09/trump-orders-officials-not-to-endorse-g-7-s-final-statement

www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html

Hey Josephus,
This is the URL you want.
I copied it, but I'm using a smartphone.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-09/trump-orders-officials-not-to-endorse-g-7-s-final-statement

Notice how it displays as plain text and not a link?
Now what I'm going to do is paste the same link again, but after I paste the link I will put my cursor after the 's' in 'https' and delete ONLY the 's'.
The link should stay completely the same except for the removal of the 's'.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-09/trump-orders-officials-not-to-endorse-g-7-s-final-statement

Such is America to day Trump tells us if he is found guilty he will pardon him self! saving America may be too hard a job for any group in that case

Dear Belly,

Trump believes that he can run America like he did
his companies. He's the boss. He just may get a
surprise to learn that there are certain rules
and laws in place that govern even him.

' Trump believes that he can run America like he did
his companies. He's the boss.'

with record employment among African Americans and the economy booming it certainly seems to be working. Good to see the swamp with egg all over their faces.

Hey Josephus,
Here's your other link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html

Yes, it all ties in to other Hillary scandals, Uranium One, where the Clinton Foundation received 141m from the Russians from selling 20% of US Uranium assets, as well as the Imran Awan spying on Congress.

A lot of this stuff centres around the carving up of Soviet assets after the fall of USSR, and especially nuclear assets and secrets, but also everything thing else to.
(And when I say everything, I mean everything.)

Bill Clinton pardoned Marc Rich and Hillary continued by carving up all the assets and making more wars, but their crimes go all the way back to Mena Airport in Arkansas.

"He's also a Conservative and a Republican. Truth
and facts are part of his training and ethos. "

Well it's claimed he was once a Republican, without any real evidence.

But this so-called conservative, having been given the job of investigating the sacking of his close friend, then proceeded to populate his support staff with wall to wall Democrats and Hillary supporters and financiers. Independent? Yeah sure.

I'm not sure Steven Hatfill would agree that Mueller is all that concerned about truth and facts....

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/08/robert-mueller-botching-investigations-since-anthrax-attacks/

runner,

If Trump is as popular as you claim in the US -
how come more than 50% of voters want to
have Democrats in the Senate to curtail the
President's power? A society as divided as the US
is now cannot long maintain a position of
global hegemony or global dominion. Its hard to
measure the consequences of Trump's actions
and attitude for the trust citizens now have
in democracy both in the US and internationally.

mhaze,

Trump is learning the hard way that if you want a
friend in Washington - "Get a dog."
And according to local folklore - if you're in a
hole - stop digging.

Trump pushed former FBI Director James Comey for a
public exoneration. He ended up firing Comey in a
ham-fisted fashion then boasted to the Russians
that he took the pressure off the investigation.

Instead Trump's own actions have turned a small hole
into a yawning abyss.

It's not about to stop.

Robert Mueller is the man for the job. And he's
unstoppable. As the following link explains:

http://time.com/4828081/robert-mueller-special-counsel/

BTW - you need to look at other sources for your
information - apart right-wing mags like the Federalist.
It just may broaden your outlook. Although I doubt it.

Foxy,
You don't listen, the Democrats buy the votes of immigrants by letting them into the country illegally, encouraging them to vote and then deliberately obstructing any attempt to fix voter laws.
What do you think 'sanctuary cities' are?
Then buy the votes of blacks by playing to identity and race politics.
I've told you all this stuff before.
( - Enter Soros.)
Look here!
The people you're trusting to uncover the truth are themselves involved in bigger crimes.
http://mobile.twitter.com/i/moments/920995927795609600?lang=en

You have ears but do not listen.

'If Trump is as popular as you claim in the US -
how come more than 50% of voters want to
have Democrats in the Senate to curtail the
President's power?'

Hi Foxy I have no idea how popular Trump is. I don't really care. You certainly did not care when Gillard only got to power by backstabbing and then doing a very sleazy deal with Windsor and co. Get over it Hilary lost and Trump won! and 1000 cheers for that.

Dear AC,

I prefer to deal with the facts gleaned from a
variety of independent reputable sources - not
right-wing tabloids and conspiracy theories.

runner,

Again - I prefer facts to opinions.
Cheers to me - for that.

runner how do? no way I can step around that post, fact is I should, ALP till death should shut my trap and wander off, BUT see you speak the TRUTH back stabbing not just on her behalf but another! a total betrayal of my party, by its strongest faction,my faction,in returning Rudd they admitted they got it wrong, never forgotten never forgiven. America last election UNDERLINED party's that take voters for granted fail, Hillary was the wrong candidate, hence Trump and my question can America be saved

Hi Foxy,
You dismiss anything that challenges your core beliefs or positions.
I'm sorry but I've seen you do this time after time now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/us/politics/crossfire-hurricane-trump-russia-fbi-mueller-investigation.html

Now watch my video
http://youtu.be/Rv6QLh2y4Ko

You think you know something, but you don't.

If the Five-Eyes are involved in bias towards one candidate / or a conspiracy to elect one of it's nations leaders don't you think that's a pretty big story?
And you think 'Putin's Chef' is the story.

Same with the Tommy Robinson video.
You'll dismiss all of it because it challenges your core beliefs and positions.
I notice they are trying the same kind of police state tactics with the Sydney music goers.

After the idiot actor Robert di Nero came on stage and, apropos of nothing, said "FecK Trump", to the cheers of a moronic audience, probably all drunk, I have to start thinking that America perhaps cannot be saved - even by Donald Trump who is the only president in a long time capable of doing so. I also have to question whether America is worth saving if such a crude, stupid remark is cheered by people believing that they are the cream of society.

This entire thread is based on the assumption that America is failing and needs saving?

Bernanke says the US economy is going off the cliff in 2020 and Trump will get the blame.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-07/ben-bernanke-us-economy-going-go-cliff-2020

"BTW - you need to look at other sources for your
information - apart right-wing mags like the Federalist.
It just may broaden your outlook. Although I doubt it."

Well the Federalist article certainly said things you'd prefer to not hear, but to dismiss facts because you don't like the messenger isn't actually the ways of someone who "prefer[s] facts to opinions." So cheers to you for that.

In terms of looking at other sources, perhaps you could give me the source that you used to discover that the Supreme Court forced the baker to take anti-discrimination training. That was quality journalism right there and is indicative of the sort of things you read and believe.

Armchair,
Bernanke's prediction is largely based on the erroneous assumption that the USA is already at full employment. His current successor has the power to drive the US economy off a cliff, but that outcome is certainly not automatic.

mhaze,

Been there, done that.

You just simply refuse to acknowledge what's in the
given links.

I've wasted enough time responding to you.

I now declare -

I've lost interest - and no longer care.

Dear Belly,

Did you watch "Four Corners" last night?

On Trump and Russia?

Once again - riveting stuff.

Foxy,

For you, taking the 5th is probably a good move.

Well SM that is a fair thing to say now.

However under Obama it most definitely did need saving. Thank heaven it is being saved now.

mhaze,

If ignorance is bliss - you must be the happiest
person on this planet.

Trump, opinions differ but mine got a mention last night at those awards,right now facebook is aflame with his miss deeds, what is it some see to like about him? his open racism? his cuts to education and health? support for the gun lobby? it will take generations of statesmen/women leaders to repair this mans damage to America

what are we trying to save America from? It seems that every legal and illegal immigrant still wants to settle in America. If it was such a hell hole why are people lining up in droves to get there? Seems to me that the Trump haters can't think rationally.

Seems no pun intended pro Trump people can not think rationally, in fact it is Trump and Americas decent in to racism, the weird America first ism and a trade war America needs saving from

runner,

Criticising Trump does not make people "Trump haters."
That sort of narrow attitude that can't take
criticism of their leader - belongs to Putin and
other totalitarian regimes - like North Korea,

Trump and Kim in Singapore. Must be really hard for Trump Derangement Syndrome sufferers to accept. Trump's enerergy and acumen are amazing. Fixing America's problems and saving the world at the same time. No wonder the under-achievers on the Left hate him.

Come on Belly, you have to use the facts mate. You need to do a little research to avoid looking very silly. Any trade war has been waged against the US for years.

The EU is screaming about Trump imposing a 5% duty on EU cars, iron & steel, & aluminium.

It must be crocodile tears they are crying. You see the EU has had 20% duty on imports of cars, Iron & steel, & aluminium from the US for years.

How they can complain I don't know, & how anyone can fall for the Democrat & EU propaganda on this I really don't know.

Any intelligent leader in Oz would fall into line behind Trump, & chant "ME TOO" all the way to prosperity, & the elimination of our deficit.

If we had a leader with balls, we would be building a wall along our southern boarder to keep the Mexicans out too. [JOKE}.

U.S. unemployment down to 3.8%, thanks to Trump's policies. America is already saved.

Republicans on Capitol Hill were fuming after the
White House abruptly announced it would begin imposing
steel and aluminium tariffs on US allies, Canada, Mexico,
and the EU. These tariffs will raise prices and destroy
manufacturing jobs, especially auto jobs - which are
one third of all Tennessee manufacturing jobs. Imposing
tariffs are basically higher taxes on American consumers.
Then there's also the fear of retaliation.

Not good.

It can be saved when the rule of Trump will end

Hasbeen you will not be surprised I not only disagree but find your post funny, world trade, so well entrenched we are stuck with it now,is not going to see every country with a trade positive,and while they win on some things they, country's, face loss on others,free trade, never a truly existing thing, demands far better than Trumps America first

So Foxy & Belly, the US should accept an EU tariff of 20% against their goods, but continue to give free access to EU goods into the US.

If anyone should worry about retaliation perhaps it should be the EU. This might be just the first US retaliation against EU tariffs.

I wonder where you found that rubbish Foxy. The US auto industry is well served by paying a little more for tinplate, when EU cars will be a little more costly. With the full employment at higher wages, the US public are well served also. Anything that makes Merkel frown is good for the US, the UK & most of the rest of the world. It is probably good for most Germans too.

Hassie,

You're becoming an embarrassment.

There were so many links from CNN on the web all stating
the same thing - that Republicans were against Trump's
tariffs.

Here's just one:

http://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/31/politics/republicans-gop-react-tariffs-trade-trump-aluminium-steel-imports/index.html

Hassie,

I misspelt aluminum - here's the link again:

http://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/31/politics/republicans-gop-react-tariffs-trade-trump-aluminum-steel-imports/index.html

Dear Hasbeen,

I'm a little confused.

Are you for or against tariffs? And if you are for them to protect industries then how do you differentiate them from subsidies?

I was happy to see the US out of the TPP as their demands were quite prejudicial to Australia's best interest and our pollies still wanted to sign on the dotted line. Trump did us a real favour. The newer version did address some of the iniquities but I was still not a fan.

I also think tariffs have a role to play in protecting Australian jobs. It seems you might be on board now which is great. I'm not sure it assists in our overall prosperity but it certainly helps create a fairer system.

Foxy, CNN, For gods sake. Stop quoting these extreme lefty ratbag outfits, if you want to be serious.

Something we can actually agree on Steely. I did have some problem with import duties when they protected Victoria & NSW industry, but did nothing for other states. Fix that imbalance & I'm all for import duties/tariffs.

They are a progressive tax, costing those with more to spend on expensive imports a lot, but those with little to spend on imports very little. In this way sales taxes were better than the GST, just less productive for government. In the same way I am all for taxes on grog & tobacco & similar things. You can make a conscious choice whether you pay those taxes or not.

Not only did import duties/tariffs make it easier for Oz business to compete, they provided considerable income for government, making high income tax less necessary. Fix that inequality in the way they effect people of different states differently, & I'm all for them.

China will be pleased, the via their puppet have shown they have some strings on Putin's puppet too America has lost the war on reason and still chuckling at the pro Trump comments here, you can indeed fool some of the people all of the time

//I misspelt aluminum//

No, you had it right the first time. At least, 'aluminium' is the spelling given in my S.I. Data Book, and if you can't trust that what on Earth can you trust?

'Aluminum' is a Seppo bastardisation of the correct spelling. And like their insistence on clinging to their ridiculous system of measurements instead of going metric, I'm quite sure they only do it to be contrary. Normally I wouldn't mind - I don't care about most of their alternative spellings like colour/color, but science is a global endeavour and it's the same element anywhere you go so the spelling should be standardised, with no pandering to certain people's quaint regional dialects.

The only thing you misspelt was your second attempt at aluminium. Whoever wrote that URL made the misspelling; obviously the link won't work if it's not copied exactly, but you didn't misspell aluminium. You just didn't copy the link correctly.

I am curious as to why you don't just copy and paste, which would save a great deal of bother.

//CNN, For gods sake. Stop quoting these extreme lefty ratbag outfits, if you want to be serious.//

Jesus, if CNN are extreme lefties what does that make Greenpeace?

I'm not convinced you actually know what an extreme lefty is, Hasbeen. It's not 'anybody to the left of Benito Mussolini', it's the loonies, ferals, hippies, vegans and commies make up the outliers on the left side of the Gaussian distribution.

Thankfully due to the nature of the Gaussian distribution, there aren't many of either sort of outlier - neither the loony left nor the rabid right - so whilst they do make hell of a racket, they don't have the numbers to do any real harm in democratic countries.

Why would any of us quote the American right so often? Liberal in Americanese says left, here it says right trying to look like middle, anything is left of Trumps America, reality included,Russia and now China will determine how far left or right Trump marches, not his hill billy right

Have any of you watched the videos of the reaction of the news room staff of CNN, ABC NBS & the others on US election night when it dawned on the lefty clowns that Trump was going to win the election?

Watch them, & then try to claim those people are not extreme left.

Hasbeen are you still growing day lilys? hope so, like you but if you are that is about the only thing we have in common, see born to be left, very left, I grew out of that early, very early, center right, controlling faction of the ALP is my turf, I dislike the very left as much as you seem to dislike every one left Trump, big crowd that, yes they and I sat like stunned mullet, even with that silly Hillary pick we thought no sane nation would pick Trump, the only question now is is America insane, or is it just Trump and his supporters?

Belly, nothing could be more insane than elect to elect Obama for a second term, after his stuff ups of his first term.

Electing Trump is a sign that sanity may be retuning, at least to mainstream USA, as distinct from California & the eastern cities. Like Oz I think the ratbag greens have taken over the major cities.

Paul will be pleased, if he falls for your quite wrong view greens have taken the city's Hasbeen,I can be wrong, often, unlike your self, am, but if you are right here, if the mid terms confirm your view not mine, the answer to my question in this thread is a definite no!America can not be saved